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← Orthodox Call on Sinners To Give Chickens a Fairer Shake

Orthodox Call on Sinners To Give Chickens a Fairer Shake - Comments

gcdavis's Avatar Comment 1 by gcdavis

They waste breath arguing over the "rights" of a chicken whilst continuing to mutilate the genitalia of millions of boys!

There is a comment facility at the Jewish Daily Forward website (url given in article)

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:45:00 UTC | #63333

APPlet's Avatar Comment 2 by APPlet

If said pregnant woman is carrying twins must she then utilise three hens?

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:49:00 UTC | #63334

coretemprising's Avatar Comment 3 by coretemprising

...but, it is, I suppose, a step in the right direction? So many instances of otherwise intelligent people being just SO stupid. Years ago I was in a jewish/christian cult, so I've seen it all first hand. Although, we didn't do any chicken swinging. Geez! They could save all the chickens if they would just accept Jesus' sacrifice, though, right? Sigh.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:50:00 UTC | #63335

Richard Morgan's Avatar Comment 4 by Richard Morgan

To think I read all that hoping to discover something about "swinging chicks".
Oh well....

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:53:00 UTC | #63337

coretemprising's Avatar Comment 5 by coretemprising

Sorry, my "rolf" is not about the treatment of the chickens, just the overall ridiculousness of the foolish human religious spectacle.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:55:00 UTC | #63338

Ford Prefect's Avatar Comment 6 by Ford Prefect

'In general, I don't think that PETA is taken very seriously in the Orthodox community, or in any civilized society," said Rabbi Avi Shafran, spokesman for the ultra-Orthodox Agudath Israel of America.'

But swinging a live chicken over your head is civilised?

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 05:56:00 UTC | #63339

scottishgeologist's Avatar Comment 7 by scottishgeologist

FFS! I've heard it all now. Jews arguing about "choking the chicken" I would have thought that that Onan business would have cleared that one up.

Never mind, whats next "bashing the bishop"?

Religion is a load of wank anyway.....


Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:03:00 UTC | #63340

RascoHeldall's Avatar Comment 8 by RascoHeldall

What embarrassing, cringeworthy idiocy.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:04:00 UTC | #63342

pewkatchoo's Avatar Comment 9 by pewkatchoo

Primitive fuckwits.

Reminds me of this:

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:09:00 UTC | #63344

hungarianelephant's Avatar Comment 10 by hungarianelephant

This is probably heresy here, but I do have a sneaking admiration for people of a religion who have been persecuted for the best part of a couple of thousand years, but whose priorities still lie in having four sets of cookware, plaiting the hair on their temples and swinging live chickens over their heads. Say what you like - they're good for a laugh.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:17:00 UTC | #63347

Vaal's Avatar Comment 11 by Vaal

Can humans possibly get any more stupid? They should rename it Crackpot, rather than kapparot!

The sadistic Abrahamic religions should learn a little about empathy, and maybe they could do us all a favour by leaping over a cliff like lemmings (sorry, insult to lemmings) in order to expiate their sins, instead of scapegoating other living animals to sustain their monstrous egos.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:32:00 UTC | #63348

Mango's Avatar Comment 12 by Mango

Vaal -- of course the word itself "scapegoat" we have thanks to Jews as well who used a goat to get rid of their sins.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:42:00 UTC | #63349

heathen2's Avatar Comment 13 by heathen2

Reading about ridiculous rituals such as this one just intensifies my abhorrence for religion and its practices. I feel like I'm being a grumpy grouch when I don't want to participate in some that are fairly benign from my culture of origin, but that invoke gods and prayer (no animal slaughter involved).

Should I just go along to please my mom?

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:46:00 UTC | #63351

Paula Kirby's Avatar Comment 14 by Paula Kirby

Someone please remind me what century we're living in?

For crying out loud - humans can guide a vessel through space to land on a precise spot on Mars (and then send back photos), we can transplant organs from one body to another, we can fly through the air, we can travel under the oceans, we can communicate instantaneously with people on the other side of the world, we can eradicate diseases that used to wipe people out in their millions, and we can make uncannily accurate quantum predictions (on which topic - LOVE the avatar, Richard Morgan!!) ... and yet there are still people out there who think that swinging a live animal round their head will remove their sins ... and even more who think we should respect that view.

Give me strength. Honestly - makes you want to weep, doesn't it?

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:52:00 UTC | #63353

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 15 by robotaholic

it's a good thing it's chickens instead of like Aligators ;)

ok so this goes farther than just believing in invisible people with superpowers- now you have to swing chickens, cut into genetalia, grow your temple hair long, wear silly hats! - I dunno, seems like alot - just to live forever...

Life extension technology seems like a safer bet

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:58:00 UTC | #63356

Alison's Avatar Comment 16 by Alison

How does swinging a chicken (or money, or fish) over one's head remove sin?

Ronald Grimes, building on the work of J.L. Austin, describes a number of ways in which ritual performances may become or be considered "infelicitous." Here is a rough taxonomy of infelicitous ritual performances:

1. Misfire (act purported but void)
~ 1.1. Misinvocation (act disallowed)
~~~ 1.11. Nonplay (lack of accepted conventional procedure)
~~~ 1.12. Misapplication (inappropriate persons or circumstances)
~ 1.2. Misexecutions (act vitiated)
~~~ 1.21. Flaw (incorrect, vague or inexplicit formula)
~~~ 1.22. Hitch (incomplete procedure)

2. Abuse (act professed but hollow)
~ 2.1. Insincerity (lack of requisite feelings, thoughts or intentions)
~ 2.2. Breach (failure to follow through)
~ 2.3. Gloss (procedures used to cover up problems)
~ 2.4. Flop (failure to produce appropriate mood or atmosphere)

3. Inffectuality (fails to precipitate anticipated empirical change)
4. Violation (act effective but demeaning)
5. Contagion (act leaps beyond proper boundaries)
6. Opacity (act unrecognizable or unintelligible)
7. Defeat (act discredits or invalidates other acts)
8. Omission (act not performed)
9. Misframe (genre of act misconstrued)

Let's apply some "ritual criticism" to the kapparot ritual and see how it fares.

PETA argues that the ritual should be considered a type of "misinvocation", a disallowed act, and specifically a "nonplay". This is due to their consideration of the ritual as a "violation" - a demeaning act.

Some Jewish authorities consider the ritual "contagious" or "defeating", as the chickens used in the ritual, which are supposed to be eaten afterwards, may not actually be kosher, due to infelicitous handling of said chickens. Others think the ritual is a "misapplication", inappropriate due to its possibly pagan origins.

If you drop the chicken during the ritual, or fling it against the wall, it's probably a "hitch".

Dumping the chickens in the garbage would be a "breach", failing to follow through on the protocol of donating the carcass to a poor family. Substituting fish or money may be a "gloss", trying to cover up the problem of chicken-swinging, but then again you've entered the territory of "misapplication" - money or fish may be considered inappropriate to this ritual.

To outsiders like ourselves, we may find the ritual "opaque", unable to ascertain how in the world swining a chicken absolves one of sin. We may even be "misframing" it, but I doubt it. Sadly, we can't really call the ritual "ineffectual", since there's no way to empirically measure the absolving of sin in the first place - unless you're also a Scientologist.

Those who find themselves ashamed or strangely still sinful after the ritual may feel that way because they were "insincere" in performing the ritual in the first place. Or maybe snapping the necks of chickens leads to this "flop" in mood. Maybe it's better to just "omit" the ritual altogether.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:09:00 UTC | #63360

Vaal's Avatar Comment 17 by Vaal

Hopefully the Buddhists are right and these half-wits will be reincarnated as chickens.

Now, that really would be irony!

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:46:00 UTC | #63369

the izz's Avatar Comment 18 by the izz

Much ado about nothing...and chickens

The amount of time and human energy wasted in such endeavors (the debate over limbo comes to mind as well) is just so sad.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:20:00 UTC | #63383

Duff's Avatar Comment 19 by Duff

If these righteous people would be so thoughtful as to stop holding the little chickens by their shoulders and maybe gently grip them with both hands as they slowly sway side to side for maybe not more than two or three times, and then perhaps give the birds a bath in luke warm water and a handful of cornmeal. Then, if they didn't wring their necks but instead just said a simple little prayer asking the bird nicely to take a few of their sins, instead of all their sins, no one would take umbrage. Then, of course, taking the birds to a nice farm to spend the rest of their lives pecking.
I think that would make for a lovely ritual and at the same time make all those nasty people who object to the neck ringing happy.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:46:00 UTC | #63388

Alison's Avatar Comment 20 by Alison

Duff, yours is a much prettier ritual. Let's swap out the chickens, though, and use chicks instead! Newborns should have fewer accretions of sin than full grown birds, after all. Then again, they might not be able to absorb as many sins, being so small. So, scratch that. Use really, really old chickens?

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:14:00 UTC | #63392

andwar99's Avatar Comment 21 by andwar99

For some reason Monty Python comes immediately to mind.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:16:00 UTC | #63395

sabre_truth's Avatar Comment 22 by sabre_truth

It seems to me that the Rabbis are more concerned over whether the chicken flesh from the ritual is kosher or not, rather than whether they are abusing animals, or whether it is sanitary by modern standards.

And then there was this little chestnut:
"I don't think that PETA is taken very seriously in the Orthodox community, or in any civilized society"

I think the irony meter just exploded.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:35:00 UTC | #63405

dancingthemantaray's Avatar Comment 23 by dancingthemantaray

"Men are instructed to use roosters, which are grasped by their shoulder blades and rotated above the person's head three times. Women use hens for the ritual (two if the practitioner is pregnant)"

Odd the lengths an omnipotent deity will make you go to so he can forgive your sins....wonder if you can see the little sins floating on up into the chicken...

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:02:00 UTC | #63410

Quine's Avatar Comment 24 by Quine

It continues to amaze me that all measure of idiocy is thrown out the window if something is part of someone's 'religion.'

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:21:00 UTC | #63422

Veronique's Avatar Comment 25 by Veronique

Tell me please, this is a spoof, isn't it? This can't possibly be true, can it? I dooon't believe it!! These are grown-up people, aren't they?

I have never heard such total rubbish!! I am gobsmacked. And they keep on wanting 'respect' from the rest of us. Good grief!! How the hell can anyone respect a belief that requires chickens to be waved over believers' heads. This is utterly bonkers.

It sounds like Chicken Noodle Soup where the manufacturers are (apocryphally) reputed to fly the chicken over the saucepan rather than add it to the stock. Now I know why the Jews give CNS to sick people as nourishment.

I spat my tea out!! I'll have to stop typing and do something practical before I go round the twist.

Shit, they are loopy. What did they do with their brains?

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:53:00 UTC | #63428

HappyPrimate's Avatar Comment 26 by HappyPrimate

The part of this article that struck me as woozy was the Rabbi says that this ritual might be of pagan origin and they should rethink it. Geez - after better than 5,000 years now they might rethink it as having pagan origins? ALL rituals have pagan origins. Duh.

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:54:00 UTC | #63429

Richard Morgan's Avatar Comment 27 by Richard Morgan

Kentucky Fried Sins!
They're finger-lickin' evil!

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 16:07:00 UTC | #63431

Theocrapcy's Avatar Comment 28 by Theocrapcy

Brings new meaning to "on a wing and a prayer".

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:15:00 UTC | #63453

Agrajag's Avatar Comment 29 by Agrajag

Nice of them to enrich the chickens with sin before donating them to the poor. "Sinfully delicious"? Wonder if there's trans-fats in there...

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:36:00 UTC | #63458

Cyboman's Avatar Comment 30 by Cyboman

I'm surprised there isn't more of this kind of thing. One of the central theological tenets of the Old Testament is animal sacrifice. It seems like on every other page someone is killing an animal to take care of there sins and Leviticus (if I remember correctly) is almost principally concerned with the proper way to perform animal sacrifices. Factory farming has reached moral standards that would make most people become vegetarians if they knew how they operated. I'm concerned that our religious traditions prevent us from seeing how immoral our treatment of livestock animals is because people can say "There's nowhere in the bible that says we have to treat animals nicely".

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:54:00 UTC | #63460