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Bankrolling Ali's Asylum - Comments

sidfaiwu's Avatar Comment 1 by sidfaiwu

I weep that anyone thinks murder is moral.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:54:00 UTC | #86617

refuteist's Avatar Comment 2 by refuteist

I have seen the comments under the original appeal by Sam H. and the FAQ he published. If you have not I recommend you do so. I have made my contribution because I agree with Sam that unless the threat disappears "those who believe in freedom of thought have an obligation to try to keep her alive."

I try to meet ignorance and bigotry with argument whenever I can,but cannot be as prominent as Ms. Ali and am therefore in little personal danger and wish to help those who are.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:04:00 UTC | #86622

wednesdayguevara's Avatar Comment 3 by wednesdayguevara

"Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."


I know it's supposed to be funny. I know. But every time somebody says this it's like a goddamned arrow through my heart. Why do I even bother being moral and socially engaged and compassionate if, when I do, someone I respect is invariably going to twist the knife in?

Seriously. I'm tired of it. Didn't use to bother me, but it's such a trotted-out meme these days. All right, fine. Christians are superior to everyone ever. Boy, I sure do envy them with their homicidal daddy in the sky and their conditional compassion for others and their authoritarian morality. Why can't I be just like them? Excuse me while I wallow in my godless untermenschness.

In related news, too many people on this site are threatening to leave in a huff! I'm leaving! (In a huff!)

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:19:00 UTC | #86627

Fanusi Khiyal's Avatar Comment 4 by Fanusi Khiyal


Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."


Good for you Sam!

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:20:00 UTC | #86629

JackR's Avatar Comment 5 by JackR

"Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."

wednesdayguevara: it pisses me off too. It's almost as if Harris gets off on annoying his fellow atheists. And it is very disrespectful to the many atheists who are helping his fund here.

There's something up with that guy's psychology, I swear...

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:40:00 UTC | #86633

ex-bahai's Avatar Comment 6 by ex-bahai

To the best of my knowledge she didn't "lose" her bodyguards. She ditched them when she decided to relocate to America. Quite a lot of bias in this report IMHO.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:51:00 UTC | #86636

BaronOchs's Avatar Comment 7 by BaronOchs

the paypal thing was registered with "sam@samharris.com", but this address doesn't exist, his address is "sam@samharris.org".

Has this been rectified?

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:16:00 UTC | #86640

jeroen's Avatar Comment 8 by jeroen

Calling her a refugee from Western Europe seems a little strange - she was well guarded by the (my) Dutch government but left (not 'fled') for the US in September 2006 for understandable reasons - personal freedom. She returned recently as the Dutch government didn't want to keep paying for her security abroad (at first by Dutch security people in the US, later a private agency) which is quite reasonable as she had been abroad for a long time, and the American release of her biography increased the risk. They guaranteed a good transfer of security tasks and wouldn't just stop the support.
She's apparently back in the Netherlands now in a secure location provided by the Dutch government, still working for her American employer. (Does that make her the first political remigrant since the holocaust?)
I'm all for Ayaan and what she stands for, but this funding campaign exaggerates some facts.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:23:00 UTC | #86645

kaiserkriss's Avatar Comment 9 by kaiserkriss

Despite Sam's sometimes "shrill" pronouncements, I have made a one time donation, and purchased a second copy of Infidel I will be gifting to one of my friends.

This brave person deserves our respect and, if we are able and willing, our financial help, regardless of other more worthwhile causes. Recognizing we each have a limited amount of resources at our disposal, in this instance I have chosen this cause as one I wish to contribute to as hopefully others on this forum. jcw

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:26:00 UTC | #86647

annabanana's Avatar Comment 10 by annabanana

"Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."


Hmm...I don't think that I care whether or not it was a joke...

Thanks for undermining all of the contributions that all of the atheists have made, Sam. WTF?

I'm in agreement with Jack Rawlinson and wednesdayguevara.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:27:00 UTC | #86648

wednesdayguevara's Avatar Comment 11 by wednesdayguevara

Jack Rawlinson,

Yes, thanks. You have it exactly. I'm all for the cause, but sick of being insulted and disrespected in a misguided attempt to guilt-trip people who are not all for the cause.

But that's just me. Any masochists in the house today? Maybe an ex-Catholic? How about it, Sam? You can put on a nun outfit, grab a ruler and start smacking wrists like we're all left-handed. Naughty little atheists. Bad!

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:28:00 UTC | #86649

Ian's Avatar Comment 12 by Ian

"Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."


It would be food for thought, wouldn't it? If, for all its flaws, religion could act more effectively for the common good. It would be quite a blow against personal freedom.

She's working on a new book, "Shortcut to Enlightenment," in which the Prophet Muhammad comes back to tour New York City and debate modern (although dead) philosophers John Stuart Mill and Friedrich von Hayek.


This sounds interesting, Mill is a bit of a hero of mine - we both hated Theaetatus. :D

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:36:00 UTC | #86653

GoatBoy36's Avatar Comment 13 by GoatBoy36

Well, I didn't take offence at Sam's remark since it was obviously meant as a humourous dig at Christians who often try to say the same thing about atheists - he's turning round what is usually said and aiming it back at those who say it - in the best possible taste of course. Lighten up guys!

And someone said they were going to buy a 2nd copy of Infidel and give it to someone as a gift: which gives me an idea - how about buying Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book and giving it to people at Christmas? A book by an atheist for a Christmas present, man I like it ..

gb.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:38:00 UTC | #86654

Janus's Avatar Comment 14 by Janus

"Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."

As if it's not enough that most Christians already believe this bit of nonsense, one of our foremost representatives thinks it clever to repeat it.

I'm not sorry I donated to help protect Ms Ali, but I am sorry I had to do it through Sam.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:42:00 UTC | #86655

kaiserkriss's Avatar Comment 15 by kaiserkriss

"And someone said they were going to buy a 2nd copy of Infidel and give it to someone as a gift: which gives me an idea - how about buying Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book and giving it to people at Christmas? A book by an atheist for a Christmas present, man I like it .."

Thanks GoatBoy36 !!!

Yes, people should lighten up a bit, however we are ALL individuals with our individual quirks and pet peeves.. jcw

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:44:00 UTC | #86657

Corylus's Avatar Comment 16 by Corylus

kaiserkriss

we are ALL individuals

I'm not ;)

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:46:00 UTC | #86659

Shane McKee's Avatar Comment 17 by Shane McKee

In fairness, folks, I think Sam was joking, and there is a certain layer of irony there.

Having said that, I am sure Ayaan Hirsi Ali probably gets bombarded with Christian evangelism - think about how high her stock rating would be to the Jesus camp if she converted! So it's very much in Rick Warren's interests to ensure her safety (he said cynically).

Sam may come out with some crazy stuff from time to time, but as long as it keeps folks thinking and on their toes, that's a good thing, surely? It's not as if the theists actually have any *arguments* or anything...

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:48:00 UTC | #86660

Fanusi Khiyal's Avatar Comment 18 by Fanusi Khiyal

Well, what this boils down to is the difference between stated ideological position, and individual character. I'll refresh everyones memory about the behaviour on the Donation thread, and furthermore the way the FFRF crowd reacted when Hitchens spoke against jihad.

I've said this before, and it pisses people off, but the hell with it, many of sincere and moral people I know are committed Christians. And, for that matter, many of those who speak with the greatest moral clarity about Islam, are likewise. Witness Robert Spencer of jihadwatch. Witness Walid Shoebat.

If we're going to get rid of the "atheists are amoralists" meme, we will do so through deed, not word, and certainly not through endless complaining.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:54:00 UTC | #86664

annabanana's Avatar Comment 19 by annabanana

If we're going to get rid of the "atheists are amoralists" meme, we will do so through deed, not word, and certainly not through endless complaining.


Yes, Fanusi, but when Sam says something to the effect of "Christians are more moral than Atheists", no matter what clever meaning he intended, the same idiots who take the Bible at face value will take his comment at face value and use the "see, even one of their own says Christians are more moral" argument. We certainly don't need to add anymore fuel to their make-believe fire.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:08:00 UTC | #86671

eXcommunicate's Avatar Comment 20 by eXcommunicate

"Rick," Harris jokes, "may yet convince me that Christians are more moral and socially engaged than atheists."


hahaha, hohoho...


An unfortunate "joke". I'm sure plenty of Christians are having a belly laugh at that one.

I donated, despite my questions and despite supporting those that chose not to donate. Not donating to the cause celeb can also be a moral choice, Sam.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:12:00 UTC | #86672

CJ22's Avatar Comment 21 by CJ22

On a technical point, it's probably better to donate than to buy another copy of the book. The percentage of the cover price of a book that the author actually gets is quite low.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:14:00 UTC | #86675

Fanusi Khiyal's Avatar Comment 22 by Fanusi Khiyal

annabannana I appreciate that, but there will be that lot anyway.

I know why he says this. I intensely dislike Christianity; however, I cannot help but share the views Sam expresses in "THe End of Liberalism" - it is the predominantly postmodernist, multiculturalist, amoralist, atheist left that shields Islam from criticism, not the Christian right.

I see this alot, amongst many secular rightist I know. Their attitude is that they don't like the Christian right much, but they are going to throw their lot in with them, because these are the only ones who seem to be willing and able fight against Islam. I understand where they're coming from when they say this - they care a hell of alot more about the actual, real threat to them and their loved ones, than about ideological purity.

And, finally, this was a joke. Could we please just suck it up, rather than whine? If you're that offended, prove him wrong, and let's donate like all hell to the AHA charity. Let's put our money where our mouth is.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:22:00 UTC | #86678

eXcommunicate's Avatar Comment 23 by eXcommunicate

Fanusi Khiyal - Or some of us have already proved him wrong by donating our time, money, and efforts into *other* charities and projects, just not his. This is not "whining", this is standing up for ourselves. Labeling our objections as mere "whining" smacks of more peer pressure/social arm wringing displayed in the previous talkbacks.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:26:00 UTC | #86683

Fanusi Khiyal's Avatar Comment 24 by Fanusi Khiyal

Sorry, eXcommunicate that wasn't the attention. It just seems to be making a mountain out of the molehill of one joke. I really don't see the problem.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:29:00 UTC | #86684

adonais's Avatar Comment 25 by adonais

For the life of me, I can absolutely not understand why people suddenly are acting so incredibly thin-skinned at some off-the-cuff jibe from Sam Harris. Can someone explain to me what all the fuss is about? I really don't get it. I see nothing at all to take offense at.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:30:00 UTC | #86685

kaiserkriss's Avatar Comment 27 by kaiserkriss

Corylus, so I'm guessing you have been assimilated?? :-)

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:34:00 UTC | #86688

drive1's Avatar Comment 26 by drive1

@ BaronOchs

the paypal thing was registered with "sam@samharris.com", but this address doesn't exist, his address is "sam@samharris.org". Has this been rectified?

Yes. I just got an e-mail from Sam's web designers. I reported the problem on the 23rd.

Hello, My name is Matt Gardner, I work for Hop Studios, the company that built and maintains Samharris.org. Sam Harris forwarded [your] message to me, reporting an error with the donation system for the Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust.

There was a typo in the donation system that misdirected one-time donations for preset amounts to SamHarris.com instead of SamHarris.org. Please do go ahead and cancel any payments you have made to SamHarris.com, as indicated below.

This typo has now been fixed. If you would still like to donate to the security trust you may do so here:

http://www.samharris.org/site/security_trust/

We greatly appreciate your support of Sam and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:34:00 UTC | #86687

Janus's Avatar Comment 28 by Janus

Khiyal:

First, it is the postmodernist, multiculturalist left that shields Islam from criticism, but why mention atheists? Most of the shielding is done by moderate Christians, not by atheists.

Second, I agree that we should team up with the Christian right to fight Islam, even if reluctantly, but that doesn't mean we should suck up to them, or censor ourselves so as to not offend them, and it certainly doesn't mean we should reinforce negative (and false) stereotypes of atheists in order to flatter them.

Third, I at least am not offended, I'm annoyed that Harris has done something to hurt our cause, again.

Fourth, why should "whining" preclude donating, and vice versa?

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:35:00 UTC | #86689

Fanusi Khiyal's Avatar Comment 29 by Fanusi Khiyal

Janus:

Your first point runs counter to all of my own experience, so we will have to agree to disagree on that.

As to your second point, I don't disagree with you, I was merely explaining why others might disagree.

As to the third point, I'm surprised. To the extent that 'we' have 'a cause', Sam Harris has done more to advance it than anyone on these threads, except for Richard Dawkins, and even then its a tie.

As to your fourth point, I didn't say it did, I said that a mountain was being made out of a molehill.

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:45:00 UTC | #86693

wednesdayguevara's Avatar Comment 30 by wednesdayguevara

I took this too sensitively. Having a bad day.

It isn't offense, exactly. That's too strong a word. I just dislike that meme. It's false.

EDIT: However, the vision of Sam Harris in a nun outfit is the best I've had all day, so there is that. Revealed truth is the best!

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:51:00 UTC | #86694