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dialector's Avatar Comment 1 by dialector

Quote: "The usual tactic is to note that Joseph Stalin was an atheist and thus insinuate that atheism leads to mass killing because there is no morality to it."

Joseph Stalin was very much influenced by Christianity and attended an orthodox theological seminary in Tiflis. His highly liturgical style of ruthless personality cult dictatorship, with its deadly categorical assertions was no accident. It was a product of a period of close association with Christianity, wherein he drew forth some of his most vile corruption.

The very idea that one could blame Stalin's violence on atheism is ridiculous.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:03:00 UTC | #93478

faouloki's Avatar Comment 2 by faouloki

Agree with dialector.
The fact that Marx's ideas were secular, and Stalin gave the impression that he was Marxist, it is assumed that Stalin was an atheist and that's what made him kill so many people. I think ultimately Stalin wanted to replace god with himself, and as such would have very much been against atheists. As many people have said in the past, if Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens or any other of our high-profile free thinkers was in Stalinist Russia they would not have lived long.
To say Stalin killed because he was an atheist is a logical as saying Stalin killed because he liked the colour red.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:49:00 UTC | #93521

JFHalsey's Avatar Comment 3 by JFHalsey

Gods, I know that cartoon is depicting some of the most heinous atrocities our world has ever seen... so am I a horrible person that I can't stop laughing at it? The image of the crusader with a "Darwin fish," especially, makes me want to giggle.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:18:00 UTC | #93618

fides_et_ratio's Avatar Comment 4 by fides_et_ratio

After the war,English diplomat said to Stalin that he should't be so harsh against religion. Stalin said, 'how many division does the pope have?'

Is it really so difficult to see the link between Stalin's athiesm and his despotism, or is it just that some have allowed themselves to be duped by the 'Hitchins Delusion'. Those mental gymnastics that bring all faults back to the doors of religion.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:19:00 UTC | #93619

fides_et_ratio's Avatar Comment 5 by fides_et_ratio

Also interesting that the Pope has apologised for most of the actions describes above, yet apparently he's blaming them on others. Yet more evidence of the murkiness of this paricular oasis. I't can't really be good for those who drink from it.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:22:00 UTC | #93623

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 6 by Steve Zara

Is it really so difficult to see the link between Stalin's athiesm and his despotism


Yes.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:54:00 UTC | #93637

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 7 by Tyler Durden

Yet more evidence of the murkiness of this paricular oasis. I't can't really be good for those who drink from it.
And yet here you still are. Says more about you than it does about this particular oasis!!

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:04:00 UTC | #93640

Oromasdes1978's Avatar Comment 8 by Oromasdes1978

Also interesting that the Pope has apologised for most of the actions describes above



Yes, very good, now if he could also apologise to all the AIDS victims whose death is on his and the Vatican's hands would be a great start. Then he should tell the people in all the countries that have been lied to so far about how wearing condoms is a sin and that actually they can significantly reduce the spread of AIDS, perhaps I might give His Holy Father a bit more respect.

I know I keep bleating on about this but until I figure out why you like that man I will keep reminding you of just how much of an evil man the Pope is.

Philip

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:10:00 UTC | #93642

automath's Avatar Comment 9 by automath

Is it really so difficult to see the link between Stalin's athiesm and his despotism


That would rest on the assumption that theism couldn't lead to despotism of any sort. This form of argument still rests on the presumptuous and intrinsically false claim that without god then anything is possible and that one can not be moral.

There are no mental gymnastics neccesary, most humans flock to what they know best. If they are brought up to be unquestioning faith-heads (and this is most certainly the type of subservient role that religion encourages in the masses), then it wouldn't take much for people experiencing hardship to pin their hope on anyone that promised them something better. Be it a man invoking gods or a man using hope, plenty and a better tomorrow.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:18:00 UTC | #93645

fides_et_ratio's Avatar Comment 10 by fides_et_ratio

Phillip,

I thought the evidence suggests that AIDS is lower in countries with higher percentages of Catholics than those with lower Catholic populations. It seems that if more followed His Holiness' advise, less would suffer. Would be rather inconvenient for his detractors though.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:49:00 UTC | #93652

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 11 by Steve Zara

It seems that if more followed His Holiness' advise, less would suffer.


Oh I don't think so. I mean think of all the gay people who would have to be celibate. That sure sounds like suffering to me.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:12:00 UTC | #93655

octopus's Avatar Comment 12 by octopus

I thought the evidence suggests that AIDS is lower in countries with higher percentages of Catholics than those with lower Catholic populations.

Feel free to comment:
http://gamapserver.who.int/mapLibrary/Files/Maps/HIVPrevalenceGlobal2006.png

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:18:00 UTC | #93662

Oromasdes1978's Avatar Comment 13 by Oromasdes1978

No Fides, its that bloody stupid message that the Catholic Church keeps pounding in to the credulous that contraception is a bad thing, you must of heard that Archbishop saying that the AIDS virus was actually on the condoms - did you hear the Pope condemn him?

All the stories of rape victims being denied abortions, all the women who are dying of cervical cancer because of stupid idiots voting against a drug that could cure it- the list goes on, its all wrong! What don't you understand about the effect the Pope and his cronies have on this world?

The message that contraception is a sin and that abstinence is the key to a moral life is quite frankly monstrous -PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THIS CRAP! Its The Vatican who helped make this crap up - They and the Pope are very responsible, they are the ones with death on their hands - yes other factors are involved and its not just them but for goodness sake they could do something about it!

They could do some good in this world and all they bring is death - how they live with it is beyond me and why you stick up for him is a mystery - what the hell is so wrong about saving lives in face of such dangerous beliefs?

If the Pope stood up tomorrow and announced he was sorry and actually pledged himself to helping with the problems, I would applaud him, I really would- but he does nothing except advocate it and I am sick of it

Philip

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:21:00 UTC | #93664

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 14 by Tyler Durden

Fides:

I thought the evidence suggests that AIDS is lower in countries with higher percentages of Catholics than those with lower Catholic populations.

It would seem the numbers don't back up your assumptions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7109139.stm

http://ec.europa.eu/index_en.htm

HIGHEST EU AIDS/HIV RATES:
Estonia - 504.2 per million (54% Christian, 26% Atheist)
Portugal - 205 per million (84% Roman Catholic, 6% Atheist)
UK - 148.8 per million (53% identified themselves as Christian, 23% no religion)
Latvia - 130.3 per million (45% Roman Catholics, 10% atheist)
Luxembourg - 118.9 per million (87% Roman Catholics)

LOWEST EU AIDS/HIV RATES:
Bulgaria - 11.9 per million (1% Roman Catholic)
Czech Republic - 9.1 per million (26.8% Roman Catholic, 59% agnostic/atheist)
Romania - 8.3 per million (5% Roman Catholic)
Hungary - 8 per million (52% Roman Catholic, 15% atheist)
Slovakia - 5 per million (69% Roman Catholic, 11% atheist)

In non-EU areas of Europe the number of cases is also continuing to rise, with particularly high rates in Ukraine - 288 per million (88% Christian) and Russia - 275 per million (63% Russian Orthodox, 6% Atheist)

Makes sense to me. Wear a condom, it can save your life. Of course, the pope says different...

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:04:00 UTC | #93682

Hypoluxa's Avatar Comment 15 by Hypoluxa

Has anybody here, or in the forums posted a once and for all a response (w/ refs etc) to this never ending pro-religious argument "that athieists have done the worst atrocities in the world, in the name of atheism", and why that argument is faulty. I mean, damn, they keep using this argument all the friggin time!!! Why can't they realize that most people do not/would not commit crimes in regards to non-belief in x,y or z.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:09:00 UTC | #93684

Vaal's Avatar Comment 16 by Vaal

Phillip,

Not to mention the holy grail of overpopulation ignored, even endorsed, by the Catholic church. That may have been OK in the Bronze age, when the Bible was written, and the Earth seemed an infinite resource, but it is reckless madness today. The world population for most of recorded history never exceeded 1/2 a billion, yet even in my lifetime it has more than doubled, and is expected to reach 9 billion by 2050.

Every day there are stories of the world's resources being further stretched, ocean's being emptied, the worlds species in the biggest extinction event since the Jurassic extinction, perhaps irreversible changes to the Earth's climate. People fighting over land and water. How many people will it take before the Church has the wit to understand that the Planet is a finite and precious resource. 100 billion, 200 billion? Can you imagine the horror of living on a world with that number, no wild animals, except in zoo's or museums. Also, what kind of life are they endorsing when they encourage the poor to have more children, who die of starvation and illness. What a wretched life. Admittedly, that is also a social and political problem, but religion is the prime instigator of overpopulation with it's short sightedness and intransigence.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:39:00 UTC | #93694

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 17 by Tyler Durden

Vaal,

You're missing the point... when it all gets too much for our poor, poor planet, god will come riding out of the clouds on a golden chariot and winged steeds and save us all, every last one of us ;-)

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:44:00 UTC | #93696

Agrajag's Avatar Comment 18 by Agrajag

17. Comment #98221 by Tyler Durden on December 13, 2007 at 9:44 am
Vaal,

You're missing the point... when it all gets too much for our poor, poor planet, god will come riding out of the clouds on a golden chariot and winged steeds and save us all, every last one of us ;-)

Well, at least all of us True Christians (R)! ;-)
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
Steve

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:07:00 UTC | #93704

Vaal's Avatar Comment 19 by Vaal

Unless you are a Jehovah's witness, of course, in which case only 100,000 are saved. Wonder how they figure out who are the saved ones? Gladiatorial contests, eating championships, spot the ball?

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:36:00 UTC | #93713

Goldy's Avatar Comment 20 by Goldy

I guess this'll be the same pope that told us the native South Americans had been waiting for Christianity?

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:06:00 UTC | #93748

gr8hands's Avatar Comment 21 by gr8hands

Vaal, it's 144,000 who will go to heaven with Jehovah (they misunderstood the part in Revelations about 12,000 male virgins from each of the 12 Jewish tribes). The rest of humanity that followed Jehovah's commands with the right faith will have the 'hope' of the resurrection into a newly re-created Earth.

No rapture, but after Armageddon comes the re-creation. No one knows if they will actually be resurrected -- they only have 'hope'. If not, then at least there is no hell.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:07:00 UTC | #93777

fides_et_ratio's Avatar Comment 22 by fides_et_ratio

Philip, you've steered away from the point again.

Tyler, that's ridiculous. The link you provided said that half of HIV infections in Estonia were down to needles and the rest were the addicts infecting their partners. It's just a hunch, but I'm not sure that too many of those people might curtail their drug fuelled passion to put on a condom as a result of reading the latest encyclical from the Pope urging them to do so.

And another thing, those statistics are absurd.

And another thing, we were talking about Africa, not Europe. Compare the campaign for fidelity approach in Uganda and its effects, to the condom approach in South Africa and Zimbabwe, and its effects. Reason can tell you the most effective approach to dealing with HIV. The Holy Father knows it, and so would you if you conducted an honest appraisal of the evidence.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:58:00 UTC | #93820

ronnieharper's Avatar Comment 23 by ronnieharper

I copied and read this encyclical, and I'm fairly certain that even Ratzinger, deep in his cockels, does not think that most of its finer points have any merit. It is an absolutely absurd document. There is simply no way that a truly rational human being, especially one so well educated, could accept the edicts in this document at face value. In my opinion, this document is clear evidence of a pointed attempt by religionsts to purposefully confound the average, everyday person on matters of philosophical import.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:02:00 UTC | #93822

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 24 by Steve Zara

The Holy Father knows it, and so would you if you conducted an honest appraisal of the evidence.


Honest is to respond to points honestly put to you. Phillip can deal eloquently with the points he raised. I want to know if you believe that gay people like me should live lives of celibacy.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:05:00 UTC | #93827

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 25 by the great teapot

We have lived under the guidance of our current god for centuries and look at what atrocities we have suffered under him. He is an intrinsically incompetent god. I suggest we get a new one.
Did Brian Barnwick pick him?

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:14:00 UTC | #93831

Goldy's Avatar Comment 26 by Goldy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1247745,00.html
fides, the Pope is telling people to become more faithful to their partners. Do you REALLY think that can happen? Really, truly?

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:28:00 UTC | #93838

Goldy's Avatar Comment 27 by Goldy

Tomorrow's BBC Panorama programme carries an interview with a Catholic woman in Uganda who has chosen to sleep unprotected with her infected husband: "We won't go to heaven if we use condoms," she explains. Asked if the woman made the right choice, the Archbishop of Kampala, Cardinal Emmanuel Wamala, replies: "If it is wrong to use the condom, then she has made the right choice." Even if it costs her her life? "Yes," replies the cardinal. "That is a harsh teaching," the reporter responds.

From the article

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:29:00 UTC | #93840

fides_et_ratio's Avatar Comment 28 by fides_et_ratio

24. Comment #98358 by steve99 on December 13, 2007 at 2:05 pm

I take it you mean chaste, and if so, I'm not bothered what you do.

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:31:00 UTC | #93842

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 29 by Steve Zara

I take it you mean chaste, and if so, I'm not bothered what you do.


I am glad to hear it. That means you are ignoring the proclamations of the Holy Father. Good for you.

So, if you are prepared to ignore his wishes over this, what is so special about condoms?

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:34:00 UTC | #93846

Goldy's Avatar Comment 30 by Goldy

I take it you mean chaste, and if so, I'm not bothered what you do

Does this mean you don't care if Steve has a sex life or you don't care what he does as long as he is chaste?

Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:37:00 UTC | #93849