This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Stop House Resolution 888

Stop House Resolution 888 - Comments

Aaron's Avatar Comment 1 by Aaron

We need a coalition of the willing to liberate America and cause a regime change. This is getting ridiculous.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:26:00 UTC | #102713

action1976's Avatar Comment 2 by action1976

Nothing new about Americans re writing history.
A few world war 2 movies spring to mind.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:08:00 UTC | #102721

GodlessHeathen's Avatar Comment 3 by GodlessHeathen

Seeking evidence to support a conclusion is apparently not limited to ID.

I'm sure my congresscritters are tired of getting e-mail from me by now. I guess they'll just have to suffer it though. Another e-mail sent.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:16:00 UTC | #102722

Double Bass Atheist's Avatar Comment 4 by Double Bass Atheist

Worth repeating once again…
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
-Sinclair Lewis

There are so many people in the US now who are absolutely convinced that the Founding Fathers where very pious individuals.

The easiest way to make the US into a Christian theocracy is to just re-write American history so that Americans grow up believing that the founders intended the US to be a Christian theocracy.

Yep… that's the plan! And it's working. I have several friends who are atheists or agnostics that thought the nation's founders where devout men. They've just grown up hearing the lie repeated over and over again, and simply accepted it. Fortunately, I was able to show them quotes of Jefferson, Adams, Madison, et al, plus the Treaty of Tripoli and they now understand the truth. But these friends I'm talking about are rational evidenced-based people.
How does one re-educate Congress and the general public?
Stopping this resolution is a start, but we have to find a way to counter the whole "Let's hijack history" movement. But How?

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:21:00 UTC | #102725

BigJohn's Avatar Comment 5 by BigJohn

Everone, email your U.S. Reprehensible Representative!

Mine is in his inbox now, waiting to be erased.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:43:00 UTC | #102729

_J_'s Avatar Comment 6 by _J_

If you Americans are rewriting your history, will you take contributions? I dare say an evening in with a few pints will produce some valuable 'long forgotten' facts.

Did you know that the 'War of Independence' is just a daft story (based loosely on Star Wars and Braveheart) to distract you from the truth, which is that your nation is actually out on loan from Britain, and was due back in 2000? (There's now a substantial overdue charge.) No? Amazing what you learn when you read the history books, eh?

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:49:00 UTC | #102731

quill's Avatar Comment 7 by quill

Angry letter sent.

My representative did not vote for the Christmas resolution, so it was probably a meaningless exercise, but at least he'll have a little reading to do over the weekend.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:01:00 UTC | #102737

AdrianB's Avatar Comment 8 by AdrianB

Comment #107800 by _J_ on January 5, 2008 at 11:49 am

If you Americans are rewriting your history, will you take contributions? I dare say an evening in with a few pints will produce some valuable 'long forgotten' facts.

Did you know that the 'War of Independence' is just a daft story (based loosely on Star Wars and Braveheart) to distract you from the truth, which is that your nation is actually out on loan from Britain, and was due back in 2000? (There's now a substantial overdue charge.) No? Amazing what you learn when you read the history books, eh?

I've been saying this for some time. I'm okay with the claim that the US is a Christian nation because the founders were Christian, as long as they remember that they were also English. So, gerroff our land!

(I reckon I own that bit of land just to the south-west of Orlando, it's got a fibreglass castle built on it.)

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:11:00 UTC | #102740

JemyM's Avatar Comment 9 by JemyM

Once Christianity erased history. That time it recovered because it was kept safe in the middle-east. If that had not happened, the world as we know it today would not exist.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:12:00 UTC | #102741

Diacanu's Avatar Comment 11 by Diacanu

They pull this, and still whimper that they're persecuted.

It's the greatest bullshit story ever told.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:24:00 UTC | #102747

ADH's Avatar Comment 10 by ADH

"Once Christianity erased history"

That's quite a claim you're making for Christianity! If it succeeded in erasing it, how could you possibly know that it did? Which history did it erase? Have you got some kind of covert access to this putative history that has been denied to the rest of us? Maybe you could enlighten us! I'm sure there would be quite a lot of money to be made from its publication. Go for it! Of course, maybe you are bluffing and you have no such knowledge, in which case you are not really qualified to make a statement like this.

"That time it recovered because it was kept safe in the middle-east."

What recovered? History? Are you referring to Gnostic documents written from the second century onwards? What is it that gives these documents greater credibility?

I don't want to distract from the topic in hand of course. But I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history - either in the Middle East or elsewhere.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:24:00 UTC | #102745

_J_'s Avatar Comment 12 by _J_

ADH, JemyM

I guess you're referring there to the Dark Ages and the subsequent rediscovery of classical texts via the Turks, leading to the Renaissance, the birth of science and, essentially, the last five hundred years of history, are you JemyM?

I'm not enough of a historian to be able to comment on exactly how Europe completely forgot centuries' worth of artistic, philosophical and scientific progress for...how long? Hundreds of years? But the fact that it managed to remember to keep going to church and paying its tithes to an organisation that regarded the ancients as damned pagans seems likely to lend some weight to your post...

Anyone who knows about this stuff like to comment?

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:39:00 UTC | #102753

JFHalsey's Avatar Comment 13 by JFHalsey

Are we sure this is for real? I don't know much about the Daily Kos, but this reads to me like an email forward. Does anybody know where we can find this resolution on the gov's actual website? And if those pronouncements are complete lies, what are they based on?

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:52:00 UTC | #102757

ivellios's Avatar Comment 15 by ivellios

I urge you to vote against H.Res. 888 and do all you can to prevent its passage.

Ostensibly aimed at "[a]ffirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history," the resolution offers an erroneous, incomplete, and unbalanced description of our nation's history and founding principles. Some of the items touted in the resolution, moreover, are unwise, unconstitutional, notorious missteps of our past, including, for instance, the insertion of the phrase "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Our government has no business promoting religion, and it certainly should not couple our nation with god(s) when calling on us to pledge allegiance.

The resolution seeks to undermine the secular nature of our government. It should be rejected.

Also, look into the executive order allowing funding for "religious charities," I believe it to be unconstitutional. If someone wants to donate to religious charities, fine, but religious institutions already benefit from tax breaks, and they most certainly do not need our tax dollars to further insert themselves into our government.

Please do some informative research before rubber stamping yet another bill filled with, at best, empty rhetoric and at worst, outright lies. Please don't follow the herd as you did with Bill 847.

Thanks,

Matt


Posted to my Illustrious CongrASSman Hulshoff Who did vote for Bill 847.

The only comfort for me, I guess, is that I'm already smack in the middle of the new eden, which I lovingly refer to as the butthole of America.

The persecuted get more ballsy by the day.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:55:00 UTC | #102760

ScarSick's Avatar Comment 16 by ScarSick

Does anyone know if this resoultion has a 'good' chance of passing through the legislation process?

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:08:00 UTC | #102764

jbblack's Avatar Comment 17 by jbblack

Its chance of surviving is inversely proportional to how many of us get off our butts and write anyway.

I've just sent my letter in, although my representative is most likely going to vote against it anyway. He's got a pretty good track for nipping B.S. in the bud.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:11:00 UTC | #102767

Goodwithwood's Avatar Comment 18 by Goodwithwood

I could rant and rave and quote and quote but I don't think it will make a difference so I'm going to just go cry.
Is there an English speaking rational thinking country out there that could use a hard working and dam good woodworker?

GWW

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:15:00 UTC | #102768

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 19 by robotaholic

I've found that paying attention to politics simply disappoints. So I'll just turn up madonna...and sing :) - noone can make me believe in invisible stuff and I really think most people don't actually believe in it anyway...(they're just good liars)

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:06:00 UTC | #102787

Mark Smith's Avatar Comment 20 by Mark Smith

ADH

I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history

It started straightaway, with the Gospels and Acts.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:15:00 UTC | #102791

He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy's Avatar Comment 21 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

"I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history"


How about we start with "001: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." and see where we go from there.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:20:00 UTC | #102794

debaser71's Avatar Comment 22 by debaser71

I will write my representative tonight. Thanks for the heads up. I would also recommend that when writing suggest that your congress person sponsor a resolution recognizing the first amendment and the separation of church and state. Wouldn't it be great to see congress praising the constitution!

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:31:00 UTC | #102801

ADH's Avatar Comment 23 by ADH

I would like to know in what sense "Christianity" has been able to rewrite history


"It started straightaway, with the Gospels and Acts."

In what sense was the record of Acts and th Gospels a "rewriting" of history as opposed to a historical record? If you examine Luke's account you will find that it reflects 1st century Palestine rather well. The detail is meticulous. When you don't happen to like a historical record it's not good enough just to announce that the said account is a "rewriting" of history. You must be able to show that this is the case. You must be able to present documentary or archaelogical evidence of wilful distorion. Where's the evidence? Does this site not pride itself in priorising EVIDENCE over wishful thinking? Let's have some evidence that history has been rewritten by Christianity. Otherwise I might be forced to conclude that the wishful thinking is actually on your side!

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:37:00 UTC | #102805

quill's Avatar Comment 24 by quill

JemyM said:

Once Christianity erased history.
Then ADH said:
That's quite a claim you're making for Christianity! If it succeeded in erasing it, how could you possibly know that it did? Which history did it erase? Have you got some kind of covert access to this putative history that has been denied to the rest of us? Maybe you could enlighten us!
In their efforts to convert the native population of Mexico to Christianity, Catholic priests collected and burned hundreds of thousands of Aztec and Maya codices in a single event, believing them to have been the words of the Devil--effectively destroying the entire history of civilization in America up to that point. There were many libraries renowned throughout the Mesoamerican world at that time, but of them, only four books survived the torch--four pitiful books which today make up almost all we know about an entire world and its people. It is as if they never existed.

Tragically, that is more or less precisely what the Christians did to the Roman world, when they came to power. It was a Christian mob which burned the Great Library of Alexandria to the ground. All the knowledge we have of Plato, Aristotle, and other Classical (pagan) thinkers, preserved in part by Greek-speaking scholars in the Middle East, is only a tiny fraction of the knowledge and history that was destroyed by the early Christians, and which will never be rediscovered.

JemyM was correct when s/he said that Christianity once destroyed history, except that it actually did so not once, but twice, in two different worlds, a thousand years apart. It's as Ingersoll said: "Give the church a place in the Constitution, let her touch once more the sword of power, and the priceless fruit of all ages will turn to ashes on the lips of men." The churches are ready and willing to rekindle the flame at a moment's notice, should they ever be given the power to do so.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:54:00 UTC | #102827

Patrick McArdle's Avatar Comment 25 by Patrick McArdle

Daily Kos is a website run by liberal activists in the Democratic Party, the majority party here in the United States ("Kos" is the founder's nickname.) The purpose of the site is to push the Democrats to be more liberal and secular.

My Representative, Dr. James McDermott of Seattle, was one of the 9 in the 372-9 vote. He openly mocked the sponsor of the bill. He needs no urging from me to vote against this one as well.

'In what sense was the record of Acts and th [sic] Gospels a "rewriting" of history as opposed to a historical record?'

Herod's slaughter of male babies does not exist in the secular historical record; neither does the order for everyone to return to their hometowns for taxation. Roman taxation records also refute this claim. Both false claims seem to be devices for the biographers to move Jesus' family to match each writer's ideas of what the real persons did.

Matthew records the invasion of Jerusalem by zombies, upon the death of Jesus. No secular historian recorded this amazing event, and it does not appear in the other canonical biographies.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:56:00 UTC | #102831

briancoughlanworldcitizen's Avatar Comment 26 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

Hi all! I just started this topic on "raiding parties" in the forum. Please have a look and contribute. Thx:-)

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33112&p=602964#p602964

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:38:00 UTC | #102861

Mark Smith's Avatar Comment 27 by Mark Smith

ADH

In what sense was the record of Acts and th Gospels a "rewriting" of history as opposed to a historical record?

Nice one ADH. Where would you like to start? Perhaps at the beginning. Matthew chapter 1 is a made up genealogy of Jesus in which history is rewritten in an attempt to tie Jesus into some of the key Jewish bloodlines. If you want a detailed account of how Matthew does this, try any of the academic commentaries. They will also tell you why – which is that the author ('Matthew') was concerned to try to prove to Jews that Jesus truly was the messiah. This Gospel goes on to rewrite history in many ways in an attempt to show that Jesus was the one prophesied by the Hebrew prophets. The flight to Egypt (Mat 2:13-15) is a good example.

Luke, on the other hand, rewrites history in a different manner, wanting to emphasise Jesus as saviour of the world (rather than Matthew's messiah of the Jews), so his genealogy is strikingly different. Fundamentalists try to reconcile the two genealogies, but most academics agree that the Gospels have at the very least 'been creative' with history at this point. And Luke is not so bothered about the Hebrew prophets, so his history hasn't got a flight to Egypt for example. Again, read the academic commentaries for confirmation of these and many more points.

This sort of thing is endemic in the Gospels. But more importantly, in other places they are simply incorrect – which is of course in its way a rewriting of history. There was no virgin birth (this being a 'pagan' myth written back in, because Matthew and Luke, but not Mark and John, thought it was needed) and there was no resurrection (this being a belief which arose to enable the first believers to deal with their cognitive dissonance resulting from their hero's death).

If you examine Luke's account you will find that it reflects 1st century Palestine rather well. The detail is meticulous.

Meticulous detail doesn't mean it isn't historical rewriting, just that it is more convincing to readers like you.

When you don't happen to like a historical record it's not good enough just to announce that the said account is a "rewriting" of history. You must be able to show that this is the case.

It's not a question of liking or disliking. First you have to determine the nature of the writing you are considering and then you have to read it in that light. The Gospels are not attempting to be 'historical records' in the sense of, say, a modern history book. They are 'gospels' ie attempts to convince their readers as to the truth of the good news of Jesus Christ. John 20:31: ''these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ'. Your apparent favourite, Luke, claims to be doing the closest to a modern history (Luke 1:1-4), and appears to be more concerned about detail, as you say, but that in no way means he was immune from rewriting those details in favour of the 'truth' he wants to demonstrate.

You must be able to present documentary or archaelogical evidence of wilful distorion. Where's the evidence? Does this site not pride itself in priorising EVIDENCE over wishful thinking? Let's have some evidence that history has been rewritten by Christianity. Otherwise I might be forced to conclude that the wishful thinking is actually on your side!

I've summarized a very small portion of the evidence above. There is a wealth more that has been set out by countless New Testament scholars over the last 100+ years. The wishful thinking is yours if you think it can be ignored.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:46:00 UTC | #102865

bruno_burned's Avatar Comment 28 by bruno_burned

  1. History is a narrative, not a fact. It is evidence-driven fiction. History is interesting, but not a good source for a belief system.
  2. Our founding fathers were Christians, some more Progressive than others. They were also men. And white. And landowners. That does not mean you can claim America is a Christian Nation, a Male Nation, a White Nation, a Landowner Nation.
  3. God was left out of the Constitution on purpose

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:52:00 UTC | #102878

Patrick McArdle's Avatar Comment 29 by Patrick McArdle

"If you examine Luke's account you will find that it reflects 1st century Palestine rather well. The detail is meticulous."

"Meticulous detail doesn't mean it isn't historical rewriting, just that it is more convincing to readers like you."

If anything, meticulous detail is more important for writing fiction -- it helps the reader to suspend disbelief. For example, Peter Fleming wrote travel books; his younger brother Ian, a former journalist, wrote contemporary fiction, with a travel component -- his James Bond was a true globe-hopper. Each man wrote in meticulous detail, but no one ever mistakes Ian's fiction for Peter's reality.

A much, much better standard for history is comparison to other sources, e.g. Flavius Josephus in this case. Even within Christianity's four canonical biographies, many "facts" will contradict a counterpart "fact" in another biography.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:04:00 UTC | #102895

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 30 by Roland_F

The Resolution 888 is just the start, after the presidential election favoring God's candidate and the transformation of the USA into a Taliban state, this will be the redesign of your cabinet ministries :


Ministry of Defense => changed to 'Ministry of holy crusade'
Ministry of Education => changed to 'Ministry of theological teachings'
Ministry of Homeland security => changed to 'Ministry of true virtue and faith'
Ministry of justice => changed to 'Ministry of Inquisition'

God bless America !!

I am living far away but these developments in your country are scaring the hell out of me.

Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:56:00 UTC | #102903