This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help - Comments

JemyM's Avatar Comment 1 by JemyM

Evil might be subjective, but from my point of view this is evil.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:24:00 UTC | #142134

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 2 by Dr. Strangegod

Child abuse, pure and simple. These people should be hanged. They're lucky as hell that I'm so far away from Wisconsin. There is no more acute example than this that rationality and science are better tools than belief.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:28:00 UTC | #142137

6ai's Avatar Comment 3 by 6ai

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

...

They let one of their kids die, intentionally, lets not forget that. Is this some kind of "better luck with the next one" type of scenario?

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:30:00 UTC | #142138

Chrysippus_Maximus's Avatar Comment 5 by Chrysippus_Maximus

Lucas, I understand the sentiment, but ignorance, delusion, and stupidity are not fairly punishable by death.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:33:00 UTC | #142140

SPS's Avatar Comment 4 by SPS

Tragic and unnecessary. Propagated ignorance has a high price.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:33:00 UTC | #142139

JemyM's Avatar Comment 6 by JemyM

Jail for murder maybe.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:34:00 UTC | #142143

Quetzalcoatl's Avatar Comment 7 by Quetzalcoatl

This is a prime example of the stupidity of much of religion. With faith you can move mountains, prayer can heal the ill. Then when people who actually believe that crap try it, this is what happens. Shameful.

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."


Just wait until one of them gets ill.

JemyM-

they're not evil, just very, very stupid.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:36:00 UTC | #142144

irate_atheist's Avatar Comment 8 by irate_atheist

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
Who is this man? Mental Mickey?

I won't write down what I'd like to see done to these people, I may get banned from this thread as I understand that death threats are not necessarily tolerated.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:38:00 UTC | #142149

hungarianelephant's Avatar Comment 9 by hungarianelephant

5. Comment #149729 by Spinoza on March 26, 2008 at 7:33 am

Lucas, I understand the sentiment, but ignorance, delusion, and stupidity are not fairly punishable by death.

Apparently they are in this case. It's just that the death is not of the ignorant, delusional and stupid.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:39:00 UTC | #142150

padster1976's Avatar Comment 10 by padster1976

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

Really? Try opening your eyes.

I wonder what D'Snooza says about this.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:40:00 UTC | #142151

Rover's Avatar Comment 11 by Rover

Can't the parents be legally tried for child abuse? They allowed a child in the care to die because they failed to provide medical attention. What will prevent them from doing this again if the other children fall sick?

Maybe if they get cancer, they can pray for a miracle and just forget about the chemo? Or how about breast cancer? Will god replace fresh breast tissue and magically dissolve the cancer spreading thru the body...or maybe the radiation will slow down its growth.

NOPE!


Just PRAY...it solves everything medicine DOESN'T do for illness? Yep...close down the labs...fire all the scientists...just pray, pray, pray! And if your kids die, just keep on praying and hope they'll get resurrected!

Delusion at it's finest....RELIGION. Look at what it does. It kills...quite literally this time.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:41:00 UTC | #142154

Pattern Seeker's Avatar Comment 12 by Pattern Seeker

At least file charges for willful negligence. I'm sick and tired (of being sick and tired) of religious mumbo-jumbo always getting some sort of pass. This is child abuse all in the name of some imaginary being. Sometimes humans can make me so frickin' sick...

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:42:00 UTC | #142155

Rover's Avatar Comment 13 by Rover

At least file charges for willful negligence.


That is most certainly prosecutable under the eyes of the law.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:49:00 UTC | #142160

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 14 by Tyler Durden

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/WDH0101/803260645&theme=WDHNEUMANN

The Rev. Ted Nelson, leader of Big Church Alive, a nondenominational church in Wausau, said "it's easy to judge a family for doing this or not doing that, but the bottom line is, they did what's best in their heart, and the result turned out to be bad."

"I would be the last one to condemn those parents for what they believe," Nelson said. "People are very sincere about their beliefs. But we can be sincerely wrong."
Idiot!

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:50:00 UTC | #142161

DamnDirtyApe's Avatar Comment 15 by DamnDirtyApe

Agree with Spinoza and 6ai.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 07:52:00 UTC | #142162

pulsar1z's Avatar Comment 16 by pulsar1z

There are some people that just have not evolved intelligence.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:05:00 UTC | #142173

infidel_michael's Avatar Comment 17 by infidel_michael

"apparently they didn't have enough faith,"

Apparently they had it too much ..

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:06:00 UTC | #142176

PJG's Avatar Comment 18 by PJG

It will be very interesting to see what happens here.

If these parents "did nothing" at all, and allowed their child to die, I suspect they would be charged (maybe manslaughter or wilful neglect?) I wonder if they will be treated differently because they "did nothing" by praying.

A test case for just what sort of a "pass" faith gets?

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:09:00 UTC | #142178

suffolkthinker's Avatar Comment 19 by suffolkthinker

The Rev. Ted Nelson, leader of Big Church Alive, a nondenominational church in Wausau, said "it's easy to judge a family for doing this or not doing that, but the bottom line is, they did what's best in their heart, and the result turned out to be bad."

"I would be the last one to condemn those parents for what they believe," Nelson said. "People are very sincere about their beliefs. But we can be sincerely wrong."
If they are "sincerely wrong" and it just affects them, no problem for anyone but themselves. When it affects the lives of children it is simply them being sincerely evil.
What happens next will be a good (or should that be sad?) test of the justice system where they live. Anything short of a long custodial sentence and their children be placed in the care of genuinely caring adopted parents will be frankly scandalous. Ok, I *might* allow them to section the parents for life under the local equivalent of the Mental Health Act as an alternative to prison.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:10:00 UTC | #142179

Bertybob's Avatar Comment 20 by Bertybob

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.


Didn't have enough intelligence more like!! Brains the size of a walnut.

They should face legal consequences. Child neglect for starters and work up from there.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:12:00 UTC | #142180

Quetzalcoatl's Avatar Comment 21 by Quetzalcoatl

My thoughts on this and the article Tyler found:

http://musingsofastrangemind.blogspot.com/2008/03/power-of-prayer.html

Probably the most I've sworn in a blog post.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:12:00 UTC | #142182

evolver23's Avatar Comment 22 by evolver23

I am sick to my stomach. This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in some time. I can only imagine (and not very well at that) the suffering this poor girl experienced over a period of a month in her parents utterly idiotic and condemnable hands. It reminds me that we are not only fighting for philosophical truths and freedom of speech, but, quite often, for life itself, and the well-being of humankind.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:13:00 UTC | #142184

alfonso's Avatar Comment 23 by alfonso

"There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see"

If being dead is not sign enough, what is?

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:14:00 UTC | #142186

annabanana's Avatar Comment 24 by annabanana

If not willful homicide, at least negligent homicide.

And...

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."


Really? Allowing their sibling to die by inaction isn't a sign of abuse? Sometimes I detest being part of this species.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:16:00 UTC | #142188

forksmuggler's Avatar Comment 25 by forksmuggler

I agree with evolver23. As angry as this makes me, I'm more saddened than anything.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:17:00 UTC | #142190

Richard Morgan's Avatar Comment 26 by Richard Morgan

Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
So for a month they watched their little girl suffer in order to play mind games with their faith. because it is clear that these parents were more concerned with THEIR relationship with the ALMIGHTY than with their daughter's suffering. That is what is so horrible about this kind of murderous stupidity. "We're going to cure our daughter by praying." The proof of this self-centred approach is in their reaction : " apparently they didn't have enough faith." Doctors couldn't intervene, God wouldn't - so it was all down to the parents magic words - prayer.
THAT is why their other children should be removed. The parents are likely to believe that their faith will be stronger next time. Letting the first daughter die was just a sort of spiritual warming up.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:19:00 UTC | #142193

squinky's Avatar Comment 27 by squinky

These type of stories haunt me. As a father, I can only imagine what the poor child is going through as her kidneys shut down and she fades in and out of diabetic shock:
"Mom, Dad, help me!"
[praying] "We are honey, we're doing our best."

She is the innocent victim of religion. Her parents feel guilty because they 'didn't have enough faith', because God didn't deem them worthy enough to save their child. Actually, they ARE not worthy--to be parents. Their reproductive rights should be stripped by the State (cut Dad's balls off and fill Mom's vagina with hot wax).

I can only imagine that these 'parents' are guilty of criminal negligence much like leaving a child unattended in a hot car to die.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:21:00 UTC | #142196

justinesaracen's Avatar Comment 28 by justinesaracen

There are other lunatic sects in the US which refuse medical treatment, for themselves and for their children, and surely there have been similar cases which have created legal precedents. I seem to remember a case where a blood transfusion was refused and the child died, but I can't remember where. Unfortunately, I believe (correct me if anyone knows better) these would be state laws, and thus not uniform throughout the US.

Regardless of the legal outcome, it is clearly the most extreme (and poignant) example of what RD refers to as the religious abuse of children. I am aghast that the other children are allowed to remain in the home. Surely at some point or other, one of them will get sick.

Esuther

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:23:00 UTC | #142198

irate_atheist's Avatar Comment 30 by irate_atheist

26. Comment #149782 by Richard Morgan -

Good grief. Once again I find myself strangely compelled to agree with you.

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:24:00 UTC | #142201

Kubenzi's Avatar Comment 29 by Kubenzi

look on the bright side guys.like the mother said,she might be resurrected

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:24:00 UTC | #142200