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← Mayor challenges pope during Genoa visit

Mayor challenges pope during Genoa visit - Comments

flobear's Avatar Comment 2 by flobear

The pro-abortion mayor...

Uh... don't they mean "pro-choice"? Maybe this is an Americanism but saying "I'm pro-abortion" is kind of like saying "I'm pro-slaughter" instead of "I like steak."

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:07:00 UTC | #172849

Pattern Seeker's Avatar Comment 1 by Pattern Seeker

When I read the title of the article I thought the "challenge" was going to be a boxing match or a drinking game or something.

Dang it.

Nonetheless, it's nice to see the good people of Italy stand up to this overblown transvestite.

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:07:00 UTC | #172848

ThoughtsonCommonToad's Avatar Comment 3 by ThoughtsonCommonToad

Abortion isn't a binary issue. Nobody is for or against abortion. People are for it within limits and against it (usually) within limits.

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:10:00 UTC | #172853

DamnDirtyApe's Avatar Comment 4 by DamnDirtyApe

I think we're going to agree on the media phrasing of this being rather stupid...

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:33:00 UTC | #172867

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 5 by mordacious1

No one is pro-abortion. Gee, I'm getting knocked up so I can have an abortion, because I like them so much. If one needs a medical procedure, one needs it, period.

This mayor would get my vote and I'm sure she'll be re-elected. When I was in Italy years ago, I was suprised that most Italiens were not that religious.

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:50:00 UTC | #172877

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 6 by rod-the-farmer

Re ThoughtsonCommonToad


People are for it within limits and against it (usually) within limits.

Hmm. Not sure I agree with you here. While I believe most people who support abortion do so "within limits" (typically time), but I never heard of someone who was opposed to abortion, except under certain "limits". This is not a binary situation here. Anti-abortionists are usually, in my reading, totally opposed under any and all circumstances. But the opposite side of the argument has almost no one who supports abortion is ANY circumstance.

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:51:00 UTC | #172878

Auraboy's Avatar Comment 7 by Auraboy

Abortion replacing contraception...which Old scary eyes disapproves of too. So maybe they can hand out free condoms to every Italian citizen who loses their right to a civilized pro-choice. Sure that would be a concilliatory step, right? Vatican Vasectomy's maybe if it's going to be long term.

Mon, 19 May 2008 07:53:00 UTC | #172880

Geoff's Avatar Comment 8 by Geoff

I'm with rod-the-farmer on this one - the vast majority of the anti abortion lobby seem to think a fertilised ovum is an "unborn child" and quite deliberately use that emotive phrase in their propaganda.
As far as they're concerned, abortion is a sin right from day one.
The pro-choice lobby have their differences, true, but as rod says it's typically over the latest time it should be allowed.

Mon, 19 May 2008 08:00:00 UTC | #172885

Auraboy's Avatar Comment 9 by Auraboy

I think the only real variation in the anti-abortion lobby side is whether to allow it in cases of rape, incest or possible harm to the mother. Although generally a good solid religious standing can see through those little trivial details.

Mon, 19 May 2008 08:05:00 UTC | #172889

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 10 by al-rawandi

An abortion comment:





The Hypocrites of religion, are just that....


They always seem to say "abortion is acceptable in the case of rape."


So they are saying that if a woman is raped, then killing the child is acceptable, but if she is not raped, then it is murder. Killing an unborn fetus is either murder or it isn't. I wish they would get their shit together and figure it out. I also wish they would stop pretending they care about women's rights.

Mon, 19 May 2008 08:10:00 UTC | #172892

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 11 by mordacious1

The thing about the pope is, that most of his "flock" ignore what he says. He sits in his palace, surrounded by luxuries that the church has stolen for centuries from the poor, thinking it is still the 14th Century. This is pathetic. I wish the news media would quit reporting on every thing he says. If they did I think he would fade into obscurity.

Mon, 19 May 2008 08:13:00 UTC | #172895

Auraboy's Avatar Comment 12 by Auraboy

Well the increasingly fundamental position is to push for the complete repeal of abortion access EVEN in the case of rape, incest or possible death for the mother. I've seen this argument pressed for in various places and I imagine there must be some U.S states with such intention.


I suppose it's a case of religious hypocrisy or religious fanatacism. Not much of a choice to work with.

Mon, 19 May 2008 08:14:00 UTC | #172896

ukvillafan's Avatar Comment 13 by ukvillafan

If you like steak, then you ARE pro slaughter; it stands to reason unless your intention is to eat only road kill or some such.

Sorry, but eating steak involves the prior slaughter of the animal concerned, there is no getting away from it.

So, not a relevant example to the topic in question.

Mon, 19 May 2008 08:22:00 UTC | #172901

hungarianelephant's Avatar Comment 14 by hungarianelephant

13. Comment #182142 by Auraboy on May 19, 2008 at 9:14 am

Well the increasingly fundamental position is to push for the complete repeal of abortion access EVEN in the case of rape, incest or possible death for the mother. I've seen this argument pressed for in various places and I imagine there must be some U.S states with such intention.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_v._X

Footnote: Successive Irish governments have made three attempts to hold a constitutional referendum to ... wait for it ... reverse this decision. It's lost the lot, and since most of the abortion hypocrites (who think abortion is OK as long as you have to go to England to get it) are literally dying out, they will probably give up now. That hasn't stopped people talking the Lisbon Treaty into another abortion referendum. Actually I wonder what referendum wouldn't be regarded as having anything to do with abortion.

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:14:00 UTC | #172920

liberalartist's Avatar Comment 15 by liberalartist

"...suggested to Pope Benedict in a public address on Sunday that the Church could not impose its views on the personal choices of citizens in a lay state."

YEAH! I wish we had politicians saying that sort of thing in the US.

"Critics of the existing law, mostly in the centre right, say abortion has replaced contraception"

If they didn't fight access to contraception, abortions would decline. The hypocrisy of these idiot men in skirts just astounds me at times. Keeping reproductive rights from women isn't just immoral, it's criminal.

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:21:00 UTC | #172921

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 16 by al-rawandi

liberalartist,






criminal and immoral aside.... it is stupid. Just plain stupid. But religion has nearly cornered the market on criminal, immoral and stupid.

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:40:00 UTC | #172933

Jesse.'s Avatar Comment 17 by Jesse.

I don't mind the pro-abortion. I think it is an accurate description. However, I always cringe when I read "pro-life". As if their opponents are against life or something. I think that's a huge distortion of reality.

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:41:00 UTC | #172935

Severus Snape's Avatar Comment 18 by Severus Snape

Pro Death by George Monbiot: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/02/26/pro-death/

Conclusion: "These people spread misery, disease and death. And they call themselves pro-life."

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:51:00 UTC | #172939

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 19 by al-rawandi

Jesse,





These pro-lifers supported sanctions of Iraq that killed about 4,500 children per month.


Pro-life is simply a lie. That don't have any respect for life at all. They just seek to control women.

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:53:00 UTC | #172941

ThoughtsonCommonToad's Avatar Comment 20 by ThoughtsonCommonToad

People are for it within limits and against it (usually) within limits.

I agree I'm teetering on the edge of a contradiction but that is why I put usually in brackets. I would imagine someone opposed to abortion would perhaps allow it if the mother's life was in danger.

Mon, 19 May 2008 09:57:00 UTC | #172943

calyx's Avatar Comment 21 by calyx

My ex-girlfriend had an abortion, for social reasons I suppose, I mean her life wasn't in danger or anything, we just didn't want it.

I suppose this would be seen as immoral by most people right?

This is Illegal in Italy aswell?

Im in Australia.

Mon, 19 May 2008 10:32:00 UTC | #172958

emmet's Avatar Comment 22 by emmet

Nobody likes abortion. I've yet to hear anyone say "abortions are great, everyone should have two". I think I probably aspire to the the "safe, legal, and rare" idea, with the caveat that I don't think I have any right whatsoever to decide for anyone, but I think there are some circumstances where abortion is actually a moral good, such as anencephaly. Even in Ireland, I think, there's broad recognition outside the lunatic fringe that such cases are a no-brainer (no pun intended).

Mon, 19 May 2008 10:36:00 UTC | #172960

Auraboy's Avatar Comment 23 by Auraboy

I imagine it's quite fine to have a debate between those who think abortion is a simple social and medical choice and those who think there are genuine objections. But the religious position is relatively little to do with genuine objection, as with most things, it's about following the party line. Divorcing morality from the here and now decisions of real social human need and applying it to an afterlife judgement means even fairly rational medical professionals can come out with the maddening rubbish that even an underage rape victim is blessed to have a baby.

Mon, 19 May 2008 10:48:00 UTC | #172964

mrjonno's Avatar Comment 24 by mrjonno

Pro life/pro choice are generally American terms which are simply not used outside the country.

Generally people in the UK are prepared to have an abortion or are not prepared to have one.

There are debates in most of Europe about the age limit but on the whole these are generally based on err science.

Through if I had to choose I am pro abortion as opposed to pro choice. Abortion is the very best weapon against poverty and crime

Mon, 19 May 2008 10:58:00 UTC | #172965

Auraboy's Avatar Comment 25 by Auraboy

Actually I'm in the UK and I've experienced more than a little problem with fundamentalist Christian anti-abortionist 'views'. Admittedly the scenario is vastly different to the U.S and the generally less acceptable view of fundamentalism in the UK helps but it's easy to underestimate the lengths these people will go to.

Mon, 19 May 2008 11:10:00 UTC | #172972

ukvillafan's Avatar Comment 26 by ukvillafan

"Pro life" is most definitely a term in full use in the UK by the anti abortion pressure groups and lobbyists. Just look at the web pages of such organisations as the Prolife alliance or united for life or the society for the protection of the unborn child (which I like to call "SPUnC" for short). You can get to all of these simply by Googling pro life uk.

Mon, 19 May 2008 11:39:00 UTC | #172984

Valiant's Avatar Comment 27 by Valiant

The world is over populated anyway...

Mon, 19 May 2008 12:01:00 UTC | #172990

mrjonno's Avatar Comment 28 by mrjonno

"Pro life" is most definitely a term in full use in the UK by the anti abortion pressure groups and lobbyists. Just look at the web pages of such organisations as the Prolife alliance or united for life or the society for the protection of the unborn child (which I like to call "SPUnC" for short). You can get to all of these simply by Googling pro life uk.


Well I guess that last comment I made was a bit simplistic but the pro-life organsations are about as politically significant as the Trainspotters alliance.
Moral issues are just far more of a personal no business of politicans choice in Europe

Mon, 19 May 2008 12:56:00 UTC | #172998

OhioLen's Avatar Comment 29 by OhioLen

mordacious1 wrote:
"I wish the news media would quit reporting on every thing he says. If they did I think he would fade into obscurity."

It would be nice, but as long as the Catholic Church exists, it will never happen. The Pope is not only a religious figure, he's also officially the head of a sovereign state (the Vatican). Even without the religious aspect, if (for example) Cincinnati's mayor criticised a foreign Head of State during an official visit, it would be stunningly rude and thus newsworthy.

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:03:00 UTC | #173002

Teratornis's Avatar Comment 30 by Teratornis


Critics of the existing law, mostly in the centre right, say abortion has replaced contraception and rules should be tightened in light of medical advances allowing the survival of some foetuses born before 24 weeks.


One wonders if these critics will demand a further tightening of the rules when medical advances allow the survival of individual sperm cells?

I'm also trying to understand why the Catholic Church relies on technology to argue for a legal definition of when "life" begins, and yet objects to using technology to create more life through human cloning.

Every cell in a human body could potentially become another child. Surely the people who value "life" must value its expansion to the greatest degree?

If it is immoral to use technology to give ordinary human cells, which would otherwise die, the opportunity to become another person, then why is it moral to use technology to give an underdeveloped foetus, which would otherwise die, the opportunity to become another person?

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:45:00 UTC | #173022