This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Teen's death blamed on faith healing

Teen's death blamed on faith healing - Comments

Musashi's Avatar Comment 1 by Musashi

First time post. Love the site and the stories. What a tragedy. Two young peoples lives cut short over something so ridiculous and so easy to fix with todays medical technologies.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:11:00 UTC | #186410

Al420's Avatar Comment 2 by Al420

All I can say is that it's fucking child abuse. Even though a 14 year old is legally allowed to decide these things for themself, this boy wasn't able to decide, he was denied the tools needed to make a decision. Freedom of (and from) religion applies to your children too.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:14:00 UTC | #186411

isThereaClaw?'s Avatar Comment 3 by isThereaClaw?

Another unnecessary loss of life. Religious objections to medical treatments, blood transfusions etc should only be permisssable by adults in relation to themselves.
Parents should not have the "right" to dictate what treatment their children receive based on religion. Governments need to be strong and ensure every citizen (under 18) is entitled to, and receives, equal medical treatment regardless of religion.
Those than reject lifesaving medical treatment based on religious beliefs should be automatically nominated for that year's Darwin awards.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:16:00 UTC | #186412

MarcLindenberg's Avatar Comment 4 by MarcLindenberg

That's a terrible story :(

It's so frustrating that children are just forced to do what their parents think is right.

The kids probably didn't have ANY choice what-so-ever in their healthcare...

The parents probably don't feel bad at all either, because their kids are in a "better place"

A hole in the ground is better than the deluded life they were being forced into apparently.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:36:00 UTC | #186416

hmcook87's Avatar Comment 5 by hmcook87

In my country hospitals can request to have the families wishes overridden for people under 18 in matters of life and death. Is that not the case here? They have to do what the parents say even if it means death for the kid?

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:37:00 UTC | #186417

black wolf's Avatar Comment 6 by black wolf

When a company makes a product, and the intended use of that product causes the user's death, the company gets sued for millions. Yet when a religious teaching is carried out exactly the way it has been taught, the parents get sued (and rightfully so), but the church carries on.
"Yes, sir, we told the people to put a fuse in their gas tank and light it. But they're responsible if they actually do it. Of course we also told them God would punish them if they didn't. But it's not our fault God wrote that down."
I have no words for the pernicious rationalizations they engage in. They tell the people that this is God's Law, and any disobedience will have the gravest consequences imaginable, and then evade responsibility when people die because they follow that Law. Isn't instigation of manslaughter a crime too? It's high time proper consequences are drawn.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:39:00 UTC | #186418

TeraBrat's Avatar Comment 7 by TeraBrat

After earlier deaths involving children of Followers of Christ believers, a 1999 Oregon law struck down religious shields for parents who treat their children solely with prayer. No one had been prosecuted under it until the Worthingtons' case.


So after all those kids died and the law was finally changed these people still didn't get it. Stupid people.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:43:00 UTC | #186419

black wolf's Avatar Comment 8 by black wolf

hmcook87,
note that the kid chose not to be treated himself. Some countries can declare someone to be of unsound mind or insane, and then carry out the medical treatment. But if, as the report indicates, he didn't go see a doctor because of his faith, there was no opportunity to file for state custodianship until it he was dead. The only way to save the children of this church of fucktardary is to declare the whole membership insane and take the children away from them. But apparently religious freedom is still more valuable than the life of several hundreds of children (and insane adults).

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:48:00 UTC | #186420

Celandine's Avatar Comment 9 by Celandine

If he had repeated blockages earlier in life that went untreated, thus leading to his death now, it seems as if that would constitute a criminal failure to get him treated back then, for which his parents should be prosecutable.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:53:00 UTC | #186421

black wolf's Avatar Comment 11 by black wolf

addendum: I just looked it up. Abetting suicide (in my un-lawyerly opinion clearly the case here) is a crime. The parents and the church could not have known if there was a terminal illness or not, or if it was untreatable or not. Since they clearly state anyway that no illness, terminal or otherwise, is permitted to be treated as per God's decree, they are guilty in my opinion. I think the main reason for the state's inconsequential treatment of this sort of religious views is the fear to put the validity or veracity of Biblical scripture into question.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:01:00 UTC | #186424

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 10 by Styrer-

Hitchens said of religion that it has 'that secret death wish. The secret yearning for all of this to be gone, to move to the next level.'

As callous as I may sound, I welcome published stories like this. Such despicable events are no doubt as frequent as they are unreported. At some point in such raising consciousness to the happening of such acts, some theistic parents may turn round and say 'hey, you know? I want our little Janie to live'.

Having said this, the above case is a clear case of manslaughter. Prison should follow. It's about time for some punishment not in hell, but in the fucking here and tangible now.

Best,
Styrer

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:01:00 UTC | #186423

Saerain's Avatar Comment 12 by Saerain

My thought upon reading the title alone was to the effect of: 'Yawn, there goes another. No surprise,' and I then caught myself. It is infuriating that this is so common that I can even approach such apathy about it.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:01:00 UTC | #186425

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 13 by Styrer-

Comment #196359 by Saerain on June 19, 2008 at 7:01 pm

I recommend you have a little natter with irate_atheist.

You'll be back on track in no time.

Best,
Styrer

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:05:00 UTC | #186427

black wolf's Avatar Comment 14 by black wolf

"Instead, some jurisdictions require a person who attempts suicide to undergo temporary hospitalization and psychological observation."
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Suicide

Is leaving an apparently grave illness untreated attempted suicide? I think that when an available medical treatment is denied for religious reasons, that religious belief should be considered as equivalent to schizophrenia and manic depression. This justifies declaring a person to be of unsound mind and treated against his will.
Now since such a treatment would almost certainly put the person in severe mental stress for violating God's commandment, which would de-stabilize him further, institutionalization would be in order. Again, the state would be very reluctant to carry this through, because they'd either have to declare the church's teachings false (thus violating freedom of religion), or try to educate what the Bible 'really' means (thus endorsing one religious view over another).
What a clusterfuck.

edit: quote fixed

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:14:00 UTC | #186428

Frankus1122's Avatar Comment 15 by Frankus1122

their defense attorneys have indicated that they will use a religious freedom defense.


Good. I hope the courts deal with this as it should be dealt with.

After earlier deaths involving children of Followers of Christ believers, a 1999 Oregon law struck down religious shields for parents who treat their children solely with prayer.


Because the idea that prayer works is so incredibly and demonstrably stupid, there is a law against it.
This is significant in my view.
There is a law that basically says, 'prayer does not work'.
I like the law. The law, generally deals with real things. It weeds out bullshit.
If only there could be more laws that prevent the harmful effects of religious belief.

Although I am not quite sure. I am for as much personal freedom as possible. However, I also think that certain laws that curtail my personal freedom benefit society as a whole.

Perhaps joining a religion should be something that you are only allowed to do once you have reached the age of majority. That and mandatory religious studies education ala Dan Dennett.
I like that idea.
(Frankus high fives himself).

Imagine that you have to register your religion when you turn 18 or 21 or whatever. Maybe you would have to write a test of some kind indicating that you are aware that you are willfully leaving the realm of justified rational thought.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:03:00 UTC | #186434

8teist's Avatar Comment 16 by 8teist

Fuckwits
sacrificed a child ...for what? to show how devout they are to their fellow fucktards in christ. What type of cretin would let a child suffer like this ? Their own children ! Inhuman ,I guess the 14 year old boy wasn`t christian enough.
Yes high 5 Frankus , tho I say age of consent should be once diagnosed with dementia

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:18:00 UTC | #186440

dragonfirematrix's Avatar Comment 17 by dragonfirematrix

Faith healing is BS.

The parents should be tried, found guilty, and executed for teaching their child god BS that the child believed would save him.

With all reason on the table, why do we tolerate the religious for committing acts against humanity in the name of their obviously imaginary gods?

WHY?

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:23:00 UTC | #186443

8teist's Avatar Comment 18 by 8teist

Or perhaps religion should only be available to those unable to breed.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:28:00 UTC | #186445

adk's Avatar Comment 19 by adk

So many of my friends are Christian, and one of them finds faith healing so amazing. She'll tell me stories she's heard from so-and-so who heard from someone else who was there that God gave an amputtee legs by the end of the service, or fingers, or whatever. I'm like, are you kidding! I don't at all understand how she can at all think that actually happens - and she's a science major like me!

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:46:00 UTC | #186451

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 20 by mordacious1

Most religious people say that their god answers prayers. These guys only seem crazy because they actually believe it.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:30:00 UTC | #186462

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 21 by mordacious1

Frankus1122

Podaar. Is that you?

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:35:00 UTC | #186464

Roy_H's Avatar Comment 22 by Roy_H

Have you ever noticed something?
He died = "It was God's will"
He survived = "A miracle! The Lord be praised"
They will always make excuses for the non existent.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:06:00 UTC | #186479

King of NH's Avatar Comment 23 by King of NH

Can the parents now sue Christ for malpractice, since the creator of the universe seems to have screwed up something a first year med student could have fixed? And isn't a 'religious belief' defense being used here like a 'mental incompetence' defense? And how is it someone can't have a beer before 21, yet they can slowly and painfully die for Jesus at 14? Somebody needs to be talked to. This is insanity!

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:09:00 UTC | #186480

8teist's Avatar Comment 24 by 8teist

JESUS loves me ,this i no cos the booble tells me so.....................yeah right

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:11:00 UTC | #186481

8teist's Avatar Comment 25 by 8teist

Funny how the faithheads try to prove their faith by letting their children suffer agonising pain.
Perhaps these ignorant fuckwits should look up FAITH in the dictionary, but probably don`t have 1 in the house.

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:18:00 UTC | #186482

urn's Avatar Comment 26 by urn

Sigh... They probably wouldn't even be able to read it if they did...

Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:59:00 UTC | #186504

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 27 by mordacious1

Urn

I think most of them don't read the dictionary, they are waiting for the movie to come out.

G of course.

Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:25:00 UTC | #186507

dj2baduk's Avatar Comment 28 by dj2baduk

Just to ditto the child-abuse comments; No parent should be allowed to adversely affect the mental or physical health of their child under any circumstances, regardless of religion or anything else. It should be illegal for a parent not to seek medical treatment should their child become ill. It should also be illegal for a parent to so warp their child's mind that they refuse treatment themselves when they become ill.

This makes me sick. I hope they kick the legal shit out of these amoral backwards fucktards!

Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:55:00 UTC | #186513

CraigB's Avatar Comment 29 by CraigB

...natural selection in action...

Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:08:00 UTC | #186518

Szkeptik's Avatar Comment 30 by Szkeptik

"...natural selection in action..."

Exactly what I was thinking. It's a good thing to have evolution selecting out these nutjobs. If they avoid all medical help, then more than 35% of their children should die before adulthood.

Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:39:00 UTC | #186533