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Evangelical Christians sign up to a 'Church within a Church' - Comments

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 1 by mordacious1

So, if they can have a church within a church to oppose gays, can the gays have a gay within a gay to...oh, they already have that.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:01:00 UTC | #192834

black wolf's Avatar Comment 2 by black wolf

Ah yes, faith, the great unifier of humanity. Just keep splitting up, I say. How about a lobster schism next?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:10:00 UTC | #192844

elfinabout's Avatar Comment 3 by elfinabout

Archbishop Peter Jensen, of the Sydney Diocese in Australia, told the meeting that sex was at the heart of the debate. He said: "Sexual immorality leads you outside the kingdom of God, just as does greed..."


Go back to your palace, put on your jewel-encrusted silk robes and gold ornaments, and enjoy your banquet. Arsehole.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:19:00 UTC | #192851

epeeist's Avatar Comment 4 by epeeist

Comment #203090 by black wolf

Ah yes, faith, the great unifier of humanity. Just keep splitting up, I say. How about a lobster schism next?
There are at least two problems though - firstly the CofE is established in the UK and secondly it runs a lot of schools.

Ma Windsor is getting on a bit, and I can see arch-loony Charles welcoming this kind of change when he becomes monarch.

And while the schools have to abide by the national curriculum one can see lots more emphasis on religion and teaching the controversy.

Oh, and finally. The church has a lot of money.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:21:00 UTC | #192854

LochRaven's Avatar Comment 5 by LochRaven

You know, sometimes innocently, sometimes on purpose, I will throw out a controversial question to a group of friends and then just shut up and watch how the discussion progresses (ok, I'm naughty sometimes). But I'm beginning to this the way God gets his jollies too?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:00 UTC | #192858

Paula Kirby's Avatar Comment 6 by Paula Kirby

I have mixed feelings about this story.

Could ANYTHING illustrate better the inanity and sheer irrelevance of the Christian evangelicals than a fuss about the ordination of gays and women? They don't need us to show the world how ridiculous they are - they are making a fine job of it themselves.

And yet ... schism always lends energy to a movement, and there can be little doubt that the evangelicals in the Anglican church are energized just now. They have created a story that is finding a place in the news and so creating publicity for their cause (and we all know that there's no such thing as bad publicity); and the more publicity they can achieve, the more desperate Rowan Williams will be to try to achieve some kind of compromise with them.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this split lead to more influence for the evangelicals in the end.

Until now the Anglican church (in the UK, at least) has been relatively harmless, precisely BECAUSE it has been so wishy-washy. But that could change if it starts getting religion ...

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:00 UTC | #192859

Oystein Elgaroy's Avatar Comment 7 by Oystein Elgaroy

Isn't it wonderful to see God's love at work through his faithful representatives?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:33:00 UTC | #192871

Koreman's Avatar Comment 8 by Koreman

Good. These people openly tell they don't like priests who do... oh wait.

These are probably deluded closet gay people who openly confess that they are ashamed of their own secret urges.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:35:00 UTC | #192872

steve8282's Avatar Comment 9 by steve8282

So does God not exist because of the huge and ever growing list of gaps in the theology?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:36:00 UTC | #192873

Vaal's Avatar Comment 10 by Vaal


Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:41:00 UTC | #192877

Nova's Avatar Comment 11 by Nova

Paula Kirby

Until now the Anglican church (in the UK, at least) has been relatively harmless, precisely BECAUSE it has been so wishy-washy. But that could change if it starts getting religion ...

Though actually if the CofE did get more active and evangelical I think that would probably work to our benefit in the end. The CofE has only been able to keep its tentacles in our government and schools precisely because it was discreet. The majority of British people are nonreligious so if the CofE makes too much noise there will be an outcry against it.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:46:00 UTC | #192883

AoClay's Avatar Comment 12 by AoClay

Yahweh is a fag

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:57:00 UTC | #192890

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 13 by rod-the-farmer

Never mind Rowan Williamson, what does Rowan Atkinson have to say about this ?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:59:00 UTC | #192893

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 14 by Steve Zara

Comment #203105 by Paula Kirby

I share your mixed feelings. Showing the awful views of many in the Anglican church may not be a bad thing, but there are so many complications. Will the Archbishop compromise? What views become the those of the established church?

On the other hand, this may be an opportunity. The sight of a schism in progress lends weight to our argument that there is no objective theistic truth behind Christianity. As both sides will say they have been guided by the Holy Spirit, we are in a position to ask them both how they know this. It could be quite illuminating.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:09:00 UTC | #192897

PaulJ's Avatar Comment 15 by PaulJ

There was a ludicrous piece on the Today programme yesterday morning about the problem of women bishops. Details here.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:13:00 UTC | #192902

Thelonious's Avatar Comment 16 by Thelonious

What was that bit about paying off people who left over the issue of ordaining women? Priests, vicars (whatever?) quit the church because they couldn't stand the thought of women preaching and they got compensated for that?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:43:00 UTC | #192929

padster1976's Avatar Comment 17 by padster1976

I'm with the Kirbster on this one.

Yes it's good that we see the unifying ability of religion at work. I tip my hat to blair for his insightful bullshit about religion being the way forward and faith in the world yaddiyaddiyaddi.

Yet the way this has been reported has for me totally laid bare the hypocrasy and bias in our supposedly 'free' media. yeah, free to follow murdoch and big business agenda with a free ride for our christiainic- taliban.

Can you imagine what would have said if this was a muslim split? Would the characters involved be described a cosy 'traditionalists'? Of course not. We have our own taliban at work cause rifts and bigotry right here in the UK and not a single article (that I could find) deems to point this out.

Is surprising that religious people appear to gullible with zero critical skills?

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:53:00 UTC | #192941

prettygoodformonkeys's Avatar Comment 18 by prettygoodformonkeys

Jism in the church? I thought they put a stop to that after they made all those apologies.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:03:00 UTC | #192953

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 19 by Cartomancer

Well, it has been nearly 475 years since Fat Harry Tudor schismed off the Church of England from the Church of Rome in the first place. I think we're well overdue for another schism by now.

Though in shocking parallel moves the gay community might very well split over the admission of openly practicing bishops and vicars into its fold. "Ordained members of the Anglican clergy were anathematised at the First Council of Sodom in 540 BC" said a spokesman for the League of Traditional Gayness this morning, "it would be a betrayal of everything the rainbow flag stands for to allow them into our seedy bars and sauna clubs now". Liberal queens were quick to condemn these words: "We should understand the hardship and sacrifices these brave clergymen have had to go through in the past, and tolerate their peculiar activities like the inclusive community we are."

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:15:00 UTC | #192965

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 20 by robotaholic

lol Cartomancer - you should work for the Onion

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:24:00 UTC | #192974

ggab7768's Avatar Comment 21 by ggab7768

I want to have your baby, but until the christians let us do stem cell research, it's not going to be possible.
Damn, those stem cells can do anything.

New from Ronco
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Washes, waxes, buffs, buffs again if you like,dehydrates, rehydrates, infuses, encourages,affiliates and infiltrates.
You got a need, we got a cell.
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19.95? on
I'm tired of this joke already.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:36:00 UTC | #192984

Alan Canon's Avatar Comment 22 by Alan Canon

A few years ago I actually joined the Episcopal Church, which is the American branch of the Church of England, as a proud full-blown Atheist, precisely because I wanted to make a statement in support of the brave members who are advancing the issue of full inclusion of gay and lesbian persons within their church. (I was raised in a very conservative evangelical tradition, and it was against this conservative tradition that I was making a symbolic stand.) I am on the hetero- end of the scale, but witnessing discrimination against homosexuals in my youth turned me into an activist of at least the "consciousness raising" variety.

These days, I'm reading more Richard Dawkins than John Shelby Spong, and I'm not a practicing Episcopalian (well, okay, I don't go to church, so I suppose I am a practicing Anglican in principle :) But, like Richard, I hold a residual fondness for the gentle norms of the Anglican Church, and like Richard, I regard it as an innoculatory strain of the virus.

I'm an American with a special affection for the people of England, whatever their theology or lack of it. One may only stand in awe of the British empire of mind, with Darwin, Maxwell, Lovelace, Hawking, Woolf, Turing, and Dawkins a mere sprinkling of the peers of the realm.

A nation which can produce such depth of intellect should doubtless be able to get its national church through the "changing moral zeitgeist" to which we all, believers and nonbelievers alike, contribute.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:47:00 UTC | #192991

Chris Roberts's Avatar Comment 23 by Chris Roberts

In the declaration conservative bishops, mainly from Africa and Asia, stated: "We reject the authority of those Churches and leaders who have denied the orthodox faith in word or deed. We pray for them and call on them to repent and return to the Lord."

Does this mean they are going to return to the roots of their faith and start stoning all and sundry for disrespecting their parents and daring to worship another god, working on a sunday etc....


Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:55:00 UTC | #192996

clodhopper's Avatar Comment 24 by clodhopper

"Their plan is a form of Anglican "putsch", a reform or takeover from within."

Is that possible? How would that work then? I have no idea how power is brokered in the Anglican church.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:00:00 UTC | #193001

scottishgeologist's Avatar Comment 25 by scottishgeologist

Paula said:

Until now the Anglican church (in the UK, at least) has been relatively harmless, precisely BECAUSE it has been so wishy-washy. But that could change if it starts getting religion ...

Lot of truth there, Paula. Clearthinker knows this as well. On his own forum he posted:

No. We are cannon fodder for the likes of Dawkins if we so water down the message of the Bible that in reality it just becomes baptised paganism. Dawkins loves Bishop Spong - who long ago abandoned any pretence to be a Christian. It is the robust biblical Christianity which stands up to Dawkins. Anything else just gets blown away

Personally, as far as Christianity in the west is concerened, I can see the current trends continuing, where liberalism and wishy-washiness just fades away and disappears. What will be left will be evangie fundies with all sorts of "-isms" - Charismaniacs, Armageddonists, Rapture-ready types, ultra-Zionists, prophecy merchants and all sorts of other nutters.

In fact, the sorts of types that you find reported on that web site.

Must say, this FOCA acronym.... well... come on guys, get a life.... When I saw that I immediately though of the infamous Sex Pistols interview of Dec 1976 when Steve Jones called Bob Grundy a "dirty fuckah" Class. Sweet.


Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:13:00 UTC | #193010

clodhopper's Avatar Comment 26 by clodhopper

SG: Perhaps that's the way it would go. Do you suppose it would lead to the disestablishment of the church? Horrible to think otherwise.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:21:00 UTC | #193015

JackR's Avatar Comment 27 by JackR

Ooh, they'll be like an inner rectum! I mean sanctum. Oh wait... no I don't.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:44:00 UTC | #193094

JackR's Avatar Comment 28 by JackR

How about a lobster schism next?

Lovely! Extra butter on that, please, Black wolf!

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:48:00 UTC | #193096

acs's Avatar Comment 29 by acs

Never mind Rowan Williamson, what does Rowan Atkinson have to say about this ?

It was my lovely parrot WHICH I got from my auntie.

Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:43:00 UTC | #193107

mmurray's Avatar Comment 30 by mmurray

Seems to me a large bunch of anglicans have just stood up and said `we do believe in Richard Dawkin's god' ! So much for the not my god argument.


Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:58:00 UTC | #193111