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← Dare we stand up for Muslim women?

Dare we stand up for Muslim women? - Comments

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 1 by rod-the-farmer

I have said it before. We need to have an investment fund created, whose monies will be invested ONLY in those countries where women are treated equally. Not just in law, but in fact. I for one will switch my retirement investments from the mutual funds where they are now, to a new fund such as I have described. Any country wanting my investments will have to prove to the fund managers that women are treated equally. I suspect many western men would support this, and I suspect in many dual households the women have a strong voice on where the family investments are placed. After all, which western man could object to his spouse wanting to support this ?

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:23:00 UTC | #255956

Vaal's Avatar Comment 2 by Vaal

A good start would be hanging her husband and brothers, until the message gets through, loud and clear.

Sorry, I have no problem with vile scum like that hanging from a yardarm.

EDIT: Where do they get this virulent psychotic misogynism from? Surely they all had mothers? Why bother getting married if you hate women so much?

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:32:00 UTC | #255962

severalspeciesof's Avatar Comment 3 by severalspeciesof

rod-the-farmer,

On the surface your idea looks good, but would it really matter to the barbarian who holds the view of women that this article talks about? I mean, to that barbarian, what does he care if his country is no longer getting investments from abroad? Just wondering...

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:37:00 UTC | #255970

Telic's Avatar Comment 4 by Telic

Seems like women's rights, although obviously a much welcomed end in itself, might also be the path to an islamic reformation.


(Mr. Pedantic : did the author really intend the final question mark in the article')

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:44:00 UTC | #255972

Szymanowski's Avatar Comment 5 by Szymanowski

rod-the-farmer: I guess we'd need to be in an economic position to impose such sanctions on the misogynist nations, as Hari points out (it's the bloody oil again).

Telic: the final sentence of the article is a question, so it requires a question mark.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:50:00 UTC | #255976

Lumifish's Avatar Comment 6 by Lumifish

It is just one tactic in a global war to keep Muslim women at heel.

I wish people would stop using language like this. It makes it sound like there is some overarching governmental conspiracy responsible for these continual violations of human rights, but it really is common, everyday individuals that are to blame for the perpetuation. I'm not convinced that provisions in the Iraqi constitution would have changed anything; the culture of religious bigotry is rooted in far deeper places than administrative law.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:01:00 UTC | #255987

Dhamma's Avatar Comment 7 by Dhamma

How can these monsters exist? How can evolution have been so cruel to create such fucktards?

Really, I wish I could do something, but what?

The next person that claims I should "respect their belief" will get a verbal punch in the face.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:03:00 UTC | #255990

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 8 by Bonzai

My friend Irshad Manji, the Muslim feminist, has called for the EU and US to fund a big programme of microcredits – small, no-interest loans – for Muslim women across the Middle East to start their own businesses or get a decent education. This would slowly give them a sliver of independence with which to reinterpret the Koran (or leave it behind). This isn't only morally right: it helps us too. How much can jihadism – an ideology committed to enslaving women, Taliban-style – spread in a society where women are free to argue and answer back?


Well said.

However I expect the Randoids to show up and say, "Hands off MY money! The government is not only spreading the wealth domestically, it is spreading it abroad?!

"BUT THAT IS MY MONEY! MY ME AND MINE! Every dollar of wealth they spread, they achieve by spreading my ass cheeks!

"What has the world come to? Has socialism gone international too?If the Muslim women want to start a business let them do it in the free market and they can get access to capital by holding halal bake sales..."

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:28:00 UTC | #256009

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 9 by al-rawandi

Bonzai,


My friend Irshad Manji, the Muslim feminist, has called for the EU and US to fund a big programme of microcredits – small, no-interest loans – for Muslim women across the Middle East to start their own businesses or get a decent education. This would slowly give them a sliver of independence with which to reinterpret the Koran (or leave it behind). This isn't only morally right: it helps us too. How much can jihadism – an ideology committed to enslaving women, Taliban-style – spread in a society where women are free to argue and answer back'



Well said.

However I expect the Randoids to show up and say, "Hands off MY money! The government is not only spreading the wealth domestically, it is spreading it abroad'! They are just spreading them like I am spreading my ass cheeks!

What has the world come to' Have socialism gone international'If the Muslim women want to start a business let them do it in the free market and they can get access to capital by having halal bake sales for fund rasing.."






EPIC FAIL.

So, how will you send the money to them, which banks will hold it, how will you prevent the men from stealing it, how will you prevent men from burning the businesses down, killing the women' Etc.... etc... The list goes on and on.

It's a noble idea, but it assume women can "argue" against the men and stay alive.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:35:00 UTC | #256014

Wosret's Avatar Comment 10 by Wosret

9. Comment #269621 by al-rawandi

Because any effort to emancipate Muslim women is doomed to failure, we shouldn't even try?

Do you figure that you have some special insight to the trials these women would endure if they attempted this that they themselves (the ones requesting the help) do not?

Don't you think that it is up to them whether they want to risk it in an attempt to work towards more equality for women?

I find this uncharacteristic of you.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:38:00 UTC | #256017

Gregg Townsend's Avatar Comment 11 by Gregg Townsend

Perhaps if the women are successful enough in their business they can hire bodyguards.

Hell, I don't have the answers but I definitely agree that education and empowerment of women could potentially solve much of these ills.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:43:00 UTC | #256025

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 12 by al-rawandi

Mitchell,





Let's just throw money at it, that will work. Especially if it is someone else's money.

I don't think it is a bad idea, I think it isn't well thought through. I think it starts with education, for both men and women. But there is little you can do to change a society which is unwilling to change. Is it your job to tell the "benighted orientals" how to run their affairs'

I am all for helping the Muslim world reform. But I am not for flushing money down the drain overseas when it can be used at home.

Do you figure that you have some special insight to the trials these women would endure if they attempted this that they themselves (the ones requesting the help) do not'


They are requesting help' Who is'

I have insight into the history and practice of Islam. Besides more than 50% of small businesses in Saudi Arabia are owned by women NOW.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:46:00 UTC | #256033

Wosret's Avatar Comment 13 by Wosret

12. Comment #269640 by al-rawandi

I am all for helping the Muslim world reform. But I am not for flushing money down the drain overseas when it can be used at home.


Yeah, that is my view to an extent too.

They are requesting help' Who is'


I live in a hypothetical universe, where the things people say are my jumping off points, not necessary the things how they really are. Comes with the territory of not knowing anything about anything.

I assumed that the Muslim feminists across the middle east were calling for the help.

Besides more than 50% of small businesses in Saudi Arabia are owned by women NOW.


Success!

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:51:00 UTC | #256041

al-rawandi's Avatar Comment 15 by al-rawandi

Mitchell,


I assumed that the Muslim feminists across the middle east were calling for the help



Some are. The situation is dire. But there is a leftist tendency to say "Let's give them money to do things to help themselves." Fucking tits, but a few questions:

1) Whose money
2) How
3) Where
4) Will it even work

No, no, no... fuck the critical thought start cutting checks.


Success!



Slow down they still can't drive.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:59:00 UTC | #256051

82abhilash's Avatar Comment 14 by 82abhilash


Muslim societies are not a homogenous block – and it is racist to pretend they are.


This statement caught my eye. Even if muslim societies are not a homogeneous block it is not racist to pretend they are. It could be wrong, but it is not racist. Simply because all muslims do not belong to one race.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:59:00 UTC | #256050

Sciros's Avatar Comment 16 by Sciros

Who is "e" and why would he dare to stand up for Muslim women?

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:00:00 UTC | #256053

Wosret's Avatar Comment 17 by Wosret

15. Comment #269658 by al-rawandi

I have no money, so it can't be mine. Though you must admit that a hell of a lot of money is wasted on bullshit, why not waste some one noble causes once in awhile? Even if the odds are against its success.

I've stressed before that for some social programs, we should be willing to take a loss in my opinion.

Will it work? Well, that is a good question, and unless the answer is obvious, (which is probably wouldn't be) there would be leftist experts saying it would, and rightwing ones saying it wouldn't, because neither of them would have a clue. Or at least that is how it seems to go.


Slow down they still can't drive.


*Gasp*, that's sexist!

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:06:00 UTC | #256061

DrCogSci's Avatar Comment 18 by DrCogSci

This seems to be the kind of situation where it's a specifically "Toxic" form of religion that causes such things. I think it'll be generations before we see a substantial change, but if nothing else, we should be enforcing our preference for the emancipation of women by force.

The U.S. is not above using such *rhetoric* in its international dealings. I.e. "operation Iraqi freedom" I guess this is the one instance where I'd like to see a *more* radical approach. Weird.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:09:00 UTC | #256064

root2squared's Avatar Comment 19 by root2squared

You can glimpse the answer by looking at the little-told story of the writing of Iraq's constitution. In the original draft drawn up by the Iraqi political parties in 2004, there was a guarantee of equal rights for women – alongside a clause stating that Iraqi oil belonged exclusively to the Iraqi people.

The Bush administration panicked. In the bargaining that followed, the US demanded an opening of the oil fields to foreign companies – and in return they haggled away all women's rights and allowed Shariah courts run by misogynist mullahs to operate. While we as a society are addicted to oil, our governments will always put petroleum before feminism. While we suck on the Saudi petrol pump, smearing rhetorical oestrogen on to our bombs looks like an ugly trick.


I think this is the most important bit. As long as western societies need this oil, they will not be able to put any pressure on barbaric Islamic countries on any matter, not just women's rights. Maybe when we get rid of this dependence on oil, there might be a real chance of reform in the Islamic world.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:13:00 UTC | #256066

godskesen's Avatar Comment 20 by godskesen

This is pretty high up on the list of disgusting things you could do.

But of course we should remember to be good post-modern cultural relativists about it. This is after all part of a larger tapestry of practices in Muslim culture - how men provide for their families. Really, it's just our culture that prevents us from seeing how women are differently privileged in this system. /end sarcasm

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:17:00 UTC | #256071

Gregg Townsend's Avatar Comment 21 by Gregg Townsend

17. Comment #269668 by Mitchell Gilks

Slow down they still can't drive.



*Gasp*, that's sexist!


Uh, Mitchell. I think al meant they aren't allowed to drive.

:)

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:18:00 UTC | #256072

The Soilworker's Avatar Comment 22 by The Soilworker

America should give Afghanistan our Constitution...

WE certainly aren't using it...

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:20:00 UTC | #256073

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 23 by God fearing Atheist

#269674 by root2squared

I think this is the most important bit. As long as western societies need this oil, they will not be able to put any pressure on barbaric Islamic countries on any matter, not just women's rights. Maybe when we get rid of this dependence on oil, there might be a real chance of reform in the Islamic world.


Save the humanity from religion, saving it from global warming, and women's rights are the same? Excellent!

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:32:00 UTC | #256079

root2squared's Avatar Comment 24 by root2squared

Comment #269687 by God fearing Atheist

Save the humanity from religion, saving it from global warming, and women's rights are the same? Excellent!


It is a fact that even though Saudi Arabia has a terrible human rights record, the US still is an ally and trades with it. If this relationship exists, then it obbviously means the US cannot exert force on domestic matters. This wold go for any other country involved in a similar oily relationship.

Morally, I do not even think it is right to trade with such countries. However, in general, people would rather have cheap gas than worry about women's rights in Saudi Arabia. Whether we like it or not, this is the current state of affairs.

I am not sure what you're trying to say, but these things are interconnected in reality, if not in morality.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:40:00 UTC | #256085

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 25 by Border Collie

Islam is truly a ship of manly men, isn't it?

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:49:00 UTC | #256092

Tetsujin's Avatar Comment 26 by Tetsujin

I couldn't read the whole thing. Someone tell me it gets better by the end.

Edit: Well that ruined my lunch.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:45:00 UTC | #256150

lol mahmood's Avatar Comment 27 by lol mahmood

A laudable article, but one niggling question bugs me: how can one separate the cultural mysogyny from the specifically islamic religious misogyny' Perhaps these men would be just as bad without islam.

Edit: Aaarghh - the curse of the missing question marks has struck!!!

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:51:00 UTC | #256156

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 28 by Border Collie

I don't know what I or any of us can do personally to stop this sort of abuse, but I do know that we, as overly tolerant, oh-so-politically-correct multiculturalists and or cultural relativists are complicit in the abuse and deaths of these women. I wonder what the lady who had her face eaten away by acid thinks about our self-righteous, hands-off attitudes. I'm going to start researching to find a way to help. I know that every time a man does this to a woman he becomes more damaged and a bigger monster, everytime a boy sees something like this he is probably irreparably damaged and a new monster is potentially created, everytime a woman or girl sees this she is irreparably damaged and possibly becomes a new monster. Sometimes we are powerless to help, but sometimes we can at least find a way to help in some small way. I'm going to find that way.

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:03:00 UTC | #256161

History_Junky's Avatar Comment 29 by History_Junky

Anyone else notice how the two islamic countries of south asia are shit holes while the one that has its own flavor of secularism just launched a rocket to the moon?

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:04:00 UTC | #256163

beanson's Avatar Comment 30 by beanson

It is here, in our open societies, that the freedom of Muslim women is slowly being born. Last week, Amina Wadud became the first ever woman to lead British Muslims in prayer. All over Europe and the US, Muslim women are pushing beyond a literal reading of the Koran and trying to turn many of its ugliest passages into misty metaphor.


Don't they realise that their patriachal religion is the major cause of their subjugation

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:18:00 UTC | #256170