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← Catholic bishops warn Obama they'll fight on abortion: Statement to focus on 'opposing evil'

Catholic bishops warn Obama they'll fight on abortion: Statement to focus on 'opposing evil' - Comments

Mr Blue Sky's Avatar Comment 1 by Mr Blue Sky

A new piece of mumbo-jumbo for the unborn Wow! LOL - There really is no end to their deluded ways when they get together!!

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:30:00 UTC | #268797

a non e-moose's Avatar Comment 2 by a non e-moose

"Questions of morality are questions about happiness and suffering. This is why you and I do
not have moral obligations toward rocks." - Sam Harris

I can see why the moment of conception, superficially, seems a sensible place to draw the line of when ending a potential life is acceptable, but there is no fundamental difference between a newly fertilized egg and the sperm and egg it originated from; any given egg or sperm has just as much potential to become a life. The fertilized egg is nowhere near developing the abillity to percieve happiness and suffering. If you consistantly follow the 'pro-life' logic, every month a woman does not get pregnant, she is commiting murder, and men commit genocides by the minute.

Therefore, the only sense in which abortion is a moral issue is in regard to the mothers happiness and suffering.

edit. Also, 1st
edit II: mr blue sky, where'd you come from? You stole my '1st'!

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:32:00 UTC | #268800

History_Junky's Avatar Comment 3 by History_Junky

The catholic church should shut its mouth and let a sovereign nation decide its own rules.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:52:00 UTC | #268812

History_Junky's Avatar Comment 4 by History_Junky

"We have lost perhaps 50 times as many children in the last 35 years as we have lost soldiers in all the wars since the Revolution, and that is a horrible, horrible thing to answer to," said Bishop Robert J. Hermann, administrator of the Archdiocese of St. Louis. "

Ummm, source?

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:53:00 UTC | #268813

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 5 by Colwyn Abernathy

Also yesterday, the bishops for the first time approved a new "blessing of a child in the womb," which could be said by priests for pregnant women.


Wonder if that will stop the "deaths" of all those who are lost in miscarriages, stillbirths, and periods. Seriously, if we agree that life begins at conception, we'll have to charge women with involuntary manslaughter. It's only fair, innit?

EDIT:

but strongly spell out the church's commitment to "opposing evil," meaning abortion.


How 'bout they start with the "evil" in their own house, meaning child abuse.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:54:00 UTC | #268815

friendlypig's Avatar Comment 6 by friendlypig

Comment 282533 by a non e-moose.

'any given egg or sperm has just as much potential to become a life .... '

Sorry, no it doesn't. Many eggs are naturally infertile. Many sperm are deformed; some with no heads, or even two heads, some heads are without tails or have two tails or are incapable of swimming. And, approximately 30% of fertilised eggs self-abort.

However, that doesn't mean the Bishops aren't talking rubbish and, if they want to die tomorrow? Well, I think that is laudable.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:54:00 UTC | #268816

alabasterocean's Avatar Comment 7 by alabasterocean

Well, I guess we see Mr Hitchens soon enough talking about murder and abortion. It's hard to imagine him beside the Fox network people holding hands when they lay veto on the female body. Even if it was brutal murder, I say, the female has to decide.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:58:00 UTC | #268822

dvespertilio's Avatar Comment 8 by dvespertilio

Well, if they want fewer abortions, why don't they try advocating for a sensible policy of sex education and birth control, something that they are, in fact, also opposed to? And when, in the past five and a half years of the Iraq war, have we heard any concerted and vocal outcry from the American catholic bishops on the immorality of that conflict? They talk about "right to life," but pointedly ignore the rights and lives of those who are already alive in the world and undeniably fully conscious, suffering human beings. The catholic church needs to get off of its imbecilic, narrow-minded, anti-abortion shtick and start offering a more comprehensive, thoughtful approach to human rights and social justice issues. Apparently even many Catholics are opting out of the party line, as evidenced by their votes in the recent election. The bishops need to wake up and smell the coffee!

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:01:00 UTC | #268826

yogibear's Avatar Comment 9 by yogibear

"I think any bishop here would consider it a privilege to die tomorrow to bring about the end of abortion,"

Please begin!

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:03:00 UTC | #268828

D'Arcy's Avatar Comment 10 by D'Arcy

Nobody likes abortion or wants one for the hell of it.

Like other large religions, the Catholics seem to imagine that they have some God given "right" to pontificate about other people's reproduction or not, as the case may be.

I would tell them to fuck off and mind their own business, but I'm far too polite. These bully boys have had their noses blooded, and are licking their wounds, like Gollum in his cave.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:09:00 UTC | #268835

fsm1965's Avatar Comment 11 by fsm1965

My view on abortion, they should be safe, legal and rare.

Educate your populace and give free contraception (which the catholics also dont like - how many "potential babies" didnt get born?). then abortions would only be needed for emergencies or health issues (mother or cytoblast). It is only a "baby" when it is viable.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:34:00 UTC | #268854

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 12 by Colwyn Abernathy

FSM1965,

(which the catholics also dont like - how many "potential babies" didnt get born?).


I believe you mean conceived. As the less conceptions there are, the less chance of a decision to abort, or a non-decisive termination. Of course, the debate STILL rages on as to where to draw the line (except in Colorado...or was it Florida? can't remember which had the ballot measure) between "human" and "non-human". It's interesting how pro-lifers don't really seem to give a shit about the "post-born", or as Carlin put it:

"If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're pre-SCHOOL, you're fucked..."

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:39:00 UTC | #268858

GBile's Avatar Comment 13 by GBile

Well, they have a point, don't they.

Wasn't the first commandment:

-- Thou shallt not abort.--

Oh wait it is:

-- I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me --

Must be important, second then ?

Whoops...

-- You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God --

Yes that is grave. Third, surely.

Gee...

-- Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy --

Let's see, is the sabbath sunday or saturday. Well never mind, there we go, fourth.

-- Honor your father and mother --

Go Bishops go!

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:43:00 UTC | #268863

neptunescovenent's Avatar Comment 14 by neptunescovenent

"I think any bishop here would consider it a privilege to die tomorrow to bring about the end of abortion,"

And go straight to paradise, I presume...

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:45:00 UTC | #268866

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 15 by Colwyn Abernathy

And go straight to paradise, I presume...


Precisely...sooooo, how is it really a sacrifice then? I mean, if you believe you're TRADING UP as opposed to GIVING UP, y'know?

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:47:00 UTC | #268868

a non e-moose's Avatar Comment 16 by a non e-moose

@friendly pig

Fine, an unfertilized egg and a sperm have a somewhat lower chance of becoming life, but my point still stands. If you're consistent with 'pro-life' logic, women commit murder once every few months by not getting pregnant, and men commit genocide by the minute, even when dissregarding the two headed sperms.

The moment of coneption just isn't a sensible time to draw the line.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:49:00 UTC | #268870

Colwyn Abernathy's Avatar Comment 17 by Colwyn Abernathy

A non-e-moose,

Not only that, but think of all the rescheduling we'd hafta do, what with changing birthdates to conceptiondates, counting the unborn in the census, and changing our language mannerisms to exclude phrases like "a child on the way".

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:52:00 UTC | #268874

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 18 by Steve Zara

Comment #282545 by History_Junky

I disagree with the Catholic Church on abortion.

But... if they really do believe abortion is murder, shouldn't they be doing all they can, within the law, to stop it? From their point of view, wouldn't it be deeply immoral not to try and stop abortion?

We need to have a public discussion about abortion, based on reason and evidence. But let's not ridicule too much people who are, I believe, sincerely, and within the law, trying to do what they believe is right.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:54:00 UTC | #268876

briancoughlanworldcitizen's Avatar Comment 19 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

I've dropped in to promote the following vid, and entirely off topic, sorry, I hope it's not too much to expect a little godless charity, and forgivness?:-P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_X62Qr4n5c

Too impatient to listen to a vid? Then go straight to the link below to vote on the referendum concerning global governance.

http://www.voteworldgovernment.org/

Thanks!

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:02:00 UTC | #268882

RationalFreeThinker's Avatar Comment 20 by RationalFreeThinker

Hmm. Let's see....

Bishops: Why not spend more time and money helping REAL LIVING BREATHING people who are destitute or sick, etc. - instead of, oh lets say, keeping up the multi-billion dollar Vatican infrastructure?

Perhaps, they don't have enough children to abuse (with their dogma or their dicks)?

Perhaps the fact that over 25,000 people (90% of whom are children) DIE EVERY DAY FROM STARVATION OR MALNUTRITION ISN'T ENOUGH SUFFERING? They want more suffering?

Indeed they do. The Catholic Church (and their lackeys) through their pitiful and insane dogma produces untold suffering.

Overpopulation.
Starvation.
Disease (like the unnecessary increase in AIDS cases due to their slavish and banal opposition to safe sex).
Sectarian Conflict over the centuries (Crusades, Inquisition, ...).

One could go on ad infinitum.

Sure they do some good things. I just can think of what they are, right now. FUCKTARDS.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:04:00 UTC | #268889

NewEnglandBob's Avatar Comment 21 by NewEnglandBob

8. Comment #282559 by dvespertilio has it exactly right. The bishops' stances are actually unethical.

My wife and I had a discussion about this the other night while watching "Boston Legal" which had a story arc on the topic. My wife said "I hate abortions and I would never have one and would never advise my family and friends to have one but I would give my life to defend any women's right to have one"

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:13:00 UTC | #268896

entheogensmurf's Avatar Comment 22 by entheogensmurf

"opposing evil," meaning abortion.


That reminds me of:
-The War on Drugs (Not including alcohol or tobacco of course)
-The War on Terrorism

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:15:00 UTC | #268897

Logicel's Avatar Comment 23 by Logicel

Steve Z: But let's not ridicule too much people who are, I believe, sincerely, and within the law, trying to do what they believe is right.
_____

Bishops are educated, and they are living NOW. They have access to the same information we have. If they want to ignore this information that gestating forms are not babies, then they should be soundly ridiculed. In addition, not only are they ignorant, they want everybody to do what they think is right.

Sexists, homophobes, racists: they all believe what they are doing is right. They are all ignorant of FACTS that destroy their belief systems, and these revoltingly vile bishops are in the same pack of deluded, ignorant, and dangerous people. They deserve no respect whatsoever, only contempt and ridicule. Wish we did have a time machine, and we could send these primitive creeps back to the time of their beloved Jesus.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:33:00 UTC | #268908

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 24 by Steve Zara

Comment #282641 by Logicel

Sorry, but I don't care. There are major battles to be fought with people who threaten our democracy and our institutions. There are those who would murder and bomb to stifle the rights of others to speak.

I say let the homophobes, the sexists, the racists, all have a voice within democracy, and providing they realise that they have to campaign within the law, and provide arguments that are subject to reason and argument.

That is democracy as it should operate.

(I reserve the right to change my opinion about this if sufficiently hassled)

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:44:00 UTC | #268914

mitch_486's Avatar Comment 25 by mitch_486

Steve,

Wrong. If the voices of homophobes, sexists and racists are heard and taken to heart by even one child, then, your democracy has failed.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:47:00 UTC | #268915

Quetzalcoatl's Avatar Comment 26 by Quetzalcoatl

Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki of Chicago warned that Catholic hospitals might have to close if, as he and other bishops fear based on legislation considered by Congress this year, a Democratic Congress and a sympathetic Obama administration decide to eliminate the right of doctors to refuse to perform abortions.


For Loki's sake. Isn't blackmail a sin? The line to the confession booth must be one big backlog of Catholic bishops.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:48:00 UTC | #268916

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 27 by Steve Zara

Comment #282649 by mitch_486

So what law would you pass to shut them up?

Decades ago, those who promoted gay rights were considered immoral and disruptive. People said that if their views were heard by children, democracy had failed.

We have to protect free speech, otherwise our speech is under threat.

EDIT: There are sensible limits to free speech, which is speech that promotes hate or violence.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:50:00 UTC | #268918

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 29 by rod-the-farmer

So let's see now....a group of MEN who do not participate in this particular activity, want to change the rules for those WOMEN who do. Sounds like non-golfers making rules for golfers. They are free to obey their own beliefs, themselves, but forcing those of different beliefs to obey THEIR beliefs, is just plain wrong. How about I insist all catholic women wear burkas..... No ? OK, how about they must bow down and pray five times a day ? Gee, howcum they get to order me around then ?

As for life starting at conception, try registering an unborn child for a unborn birth certificate, a drivers licence, or even just a social security number. Sorry Charley, we as a society have agreed that some things are only done when the individual reaches a certain age. Pre-born is not a valid concept when referring to an individual. There are millions of pre-born, stretching out into the far distant future. Are we supposed to register all of them too ?

When these bishops turn off the rhetoric about sex education in schools, and and support condom use in U.S. schools and in Africa, then they might have a leg to stand on. Until then, pipe down, or lose your tax exempt status.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:58:00 UTC | #268921

mitch_486's Avatar Comment 28 by mitch_486

Steve, extremely busy at work, I'll be sure to leave a response later on.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:58:00 UTC | #268920

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 30 by Steve Zara

Comment #282654 by mitch_486

I look forward to your feedback.

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:01:00 UTC | #268922