This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth

Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth - Comments

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 1 by Stafford Gordon

Now you tell me! Just joking.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:58:00 UTC | #272440

Ishruul's Avatar Comment 2 by Ishruul

The uncle of my wife say he's a doctor in acupuncture that graduated in Hawai. I asked him in wich university and where he stayed, how he paid for is degree, all those pesky questions.

My wife just gave me that creepy stare, finally she confess to me he never went to Hawai and got is degree by mail from those 'pay 5$ get 3 PhD' mail-in order.

I just love him on x-mas time, oh the laughter ;)


Edit: he ate myguts, but who care. He live from the lie he fed to the naive mind.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:05:00 UTC | #272445

alabasterocean's Avatar Comment 3 by alabasterocean

old needle of Chinese wisdom... rubbish, all you need is to drain a few pints of blood from your arm and you be just fine. Add a prayer and you feel ten years younger - if not under 12, then you feel ten years older.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:06:00 UTC | #272446

Sciros's Avatar Comment 4 by Sciros

Gee thanks for killing another placebo effect motherfuckers. I'm running out of stuff to make me feel better w/o chemically altering my body!

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:10:00 UTC | #272449

Chris Roberts's Avatar Comment 5 by Chris Roberts

So, when a trained medic performs acupuncture on you and tells you it works, is ancient etc. then he is not just lying, he is being fraudulent and incompetent?

Get me the number of a lawyer, I'm off to see my doctor....

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:12:00 UTC | #272453

scoobie's Avatar Comment 6 by scoobie

I once received acupuncture for back pain. At the time I had no idea whether it was regarded as nonsense or not so I was open minded and hopeful that it would work. Unfortunately it didn't, and now I know why!

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:15:00 UTC | #272455

decius's Avatar Comment 7 by decius

Good choice of an article.

A lot of otherwise rational people fall for this quackery, as well as the usual crowd of new-agey, sandal-wearing, politically-correct, granola-munching, jared-diamond-worshipping twats.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:16:00 UTC | #272456

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 8 by Border Collie

Oh, yeah? Well, what about rhino horn, tiger bone and bear galbladder? Huh?! Huh?!

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:17:00 UTC | #272457

Tezcatlipoca's Avatar Comment 9 by Tezcatlipoca

Poo facial anyone(qm)

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27723464/

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:19:00 UTC | #272458

decius's Avatar Comment 10 by decius

Comment #286264 by Tezcatlipoca

Excellent!

I love the omnipresent appeal to ancient wisdom, too.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:21:00 UTC | #272461

alabasterocean's Avatar Comment 11 by alabasterocean

I do believe the best way of getting cured from pain is potion made of human albinos - it's a real riot down in some parts of Africa. One human albino is worth a million they said on the news. Dead of course- or murdered as we say in Sweden.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:22:00 UTC | #272462

Jay Cee's Avatar Comment 12 by Jay Cee

Comment #286255 by Sciros on November 18, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Gee thanks for killing another placebo effect motherfuckers. I'm running out of stuff to make me feel better w/o chemically altering my body!


Ha! this is very funny considering that I just read an article in the Guardian about a study in which acupuncture didn't even work AS A PLACEBO! 43% of people using acupunture got better while 55% of people got better using a similar placebo - in a sample of 20,000 people. If that doesn't show acupuncture to be the balls it is I don't know what will.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:24:00 UTC | #272464

Tezcatlipoca's Avatar Comment 13 by Tezcatlipoca

Perhaps Obama will appoint Dr Hall as his surgeon general...

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:31:00 UTC | #272467

righton's Avatar Comment 14 by righton

Anyone heard of "detoxyfying foot baths"? This reminds me of those. I just got in an argument with a friend who was going to get one. She said, "the water turns colors!". HA!

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:34:00 UTC | #272469

SASnSA's Avatar Comment 15 by SASnSA

Next you'll be telling us that leeches don't really drain poisonous toxins from the body or that trepanation (drilling a hole in your head) isn't a cure for insanity! That's just crazy! ;)

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:35:00 UTC | #272470

Clappers's Avatar Comment 16 by Clappers

I recommend that you all read this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial/dp/0593061292

One of the authors is the first professor of alternative medicine.


They review, Chiropractic, Acupuncture, Homeopathy and review the research for each.

Every medical student should read it

Thoughts?

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:36:00 UTC | #272471

Tezcatlipoca's Avatar Comment 17 by Tezcatlipoca

I had a co-worker go on about the detoxifying foot pads. That one took about 30 seconds to shoot down in flames after a quick google run. Now my gf may wish there were such a thing, especially considering the fragrance of my sandals, the only solution I've found is good hygiene and sandals that can be thrown in with the wash...

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:38:00 UTC | #272473

Sciros's Avatar Comment 18 by Sciros

Hehehe. I think I had acupuncture once. I didn't have anything wrong with me though so there was nothing for it to "help" my body work on anyway.

That's how I see a lot of these "alternate medicine" treatments -- they can help you help yourself, whether psychologically or by making you relax easier, etc. After all, the placebo effect IS an effect. And some people are more prone to it than others, which means they can mentally "will" their body to heal/relax/whatevs a bit better than others, whether they realize it or not. I think mental state goes a long way towards how your body acts.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:41:00 UTC | #272474

Tezcatlipoca's Avatar Comment 19 by Tezcatlipoca

Hey! Lay off the leeches. They make good bait since they are a lot tougher than nightcrawlers. I do believe they have had some success with them in regards to improving blood circulation in limb re-attachment or something along those lines.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:41:00 UTC | #272475

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 20 by Border Collie

And what about leaping about while speaking in tongues with a rattlesnake in one hand and a tambourine in the other on down at the First Church of the Tax Break?! I guess, now you're gonna tell me that doesn't work either.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:42:00 UTC | #272476

j.mills's Avatar Comment 21 by j.mills

JAMCAM87 said:

43% of people using acupunture got better while 55% of people got better using a similar placebo - in a sample of 20,000 people. If that doesn't show acupuncture to be the balls it is I don't know what will.
Hmm. We might even draw the conclusion that NOT STICKING PINS IN PEOPLE is good for them, though obviously we'd need further research...

decius dismissed:
jared-diamond-worshipping twats
- which I feel is a bit unfair as I've only recently gotten round to reading Diamond, and now I'm a twat already. Will you guys please sort out what opinions I should have and then post them here please? Seems like I have to keep thinking all the time! Sheesh.

Read recently about a bloke who had surgery on his arm, hypnotising himself rather than having anaesthetic (though an aneasthetist stood ready). I'm just throwing that to the piranhas really.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:48:00 UTC | #272477

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 22 by Steve Zara

Comment #286262 by decius

A lot of otherwise rational people fall for this quackery, as well as the usual crowd of new-agey, sandal-wearing, politically-correct, granola-munching, jared-diamond-worshipping twats.


I bought my my first pair of sandals for decades this year, and they are actually rather cool. They aren't as cool as my husband's, with the magnetic fastenings (the sandal's fastenings, not his), but they aren't bad.

I am not sure what granola is, but I suspect I may have munched it at some point.

So, I say shame on you, you sandal-hating bigot, what with your old-fashioned prejudice against Neanderthals (who, I am sure, fashioned very respectable sandals), and with whom I share a physique.

You need to realise that not all sandal-wearers do this out of choice. For some, it is part of a culture, or pressure from partners.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:56:00 UTC | #272480

decius's Avatar Comment 23 by decius

<!-- Be sure tags are closed -->Comment #286284 by j.mills

LOL

Well, reading it is one thing, throwing out all known history and becoming an instant true-believer is quite another.


As for the self-hypnosis, there is no real mystery associated with those phenomena.

Read this

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:57:00 UTC | #272481

ev-love's Avatar Comment 24 by ev-love

Once I was so ill I wanted to die. They offered me ECT and asked for my ‘informed consent’.

At that time I think I would have given my 'informed consent'to acupuncture, leeches, even praying to Jesus….anything had to be better than where I was….

Thank goodness it was ETC they offered.

It worked!

But why?

ev-love

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:58:00 UTC | #272482

decius's Avatar Comment 25 by decius

<!-- Be sure tags are closed -->Comment #286287 by Steve Zara




I am still in the process of examining the evidence for the smart Neanderthal hypothesis, but I shall never revise my taste in footwear.

I should have said muesli instead of granola. Can you believe that people actually have breakfast with that stuff? Almost as shocking as the English habit of beans for breakfast.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:02:00 UTC | #272484

Sciros's Avatar Comment 26 by Sciros

43% of people using acupunture got better while 55% of people got better using a similar placebo - in a sample of 20,000 people. If that doesn't show acupuncture to be the balls it is I don't know what will.
Um, well, what it can maybe help show is HOW acupuncture *actually* works to help people get better. Mental focus on a part of your body can help tense muscles in that part relax, etc. Maybe acupuncture helps people maintain focus on their body in that sense. Like I said, the placebo effect is some effect. If something is about as effective as a placebo, then that means that the benefit it provides is mental in nature, which can in turn provide physical benefits. But mental benefits are not to be discounted as useless.

That's why there's a place for "alternative medicine" -- because some people can't just sit down and consciously get in a certain state of mind that says "ok I'm getting better and feeling more relaxed, etc." Some people can -- martial arts can help you do this, so can yoga, etc. In addition to actually strengthening your body they help you build a stronger conscious mental connection to your physical state... if that makes any sense (I mean things like being able to go into a very restful state quickly and easily, etc.).

Your mental state has a physical effect on your body, and alternative medicine seems to actually affect the former in order to indirectly affect the latter.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:06:00 UTC | #272485

LetMeBeClear's Avatar Comment 27 by LetMeBeClear

Great article...plain English even a believer could believe.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:07:00 UTC | #272486

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 28 by Steve Zara

decius-

I should have said muesli instead of granola. Can you believe that people actually have breakfast with that stuff? Almost as shocking as the English habit of beans for breakfast.


My taste for museli (at least without equal volumes of sugar) has never recovered from an academic trip to Stockholm in the 80s, where "muesli" consisted of various grades of sawdust with optional goat's milk.

But baked beans are a wonderful part of any decent British breakfast, preferably on a toast of a nice seed-filled brown bread, with plenty of pepper. Providing the bread is soft enough to soak up the bean-juices and the beans are piping hot, there is nothing tastier or more nutricious.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:11:00 UTC | #272487

Tezcatlipoca's Avatar Comment 30 by Tezcatlipoca

Beans-refried pintos with or without chorizo (mexican, not spaniard) in a warm flour tortilla hot off of the comal.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:12:00 UTC | #272489

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 29 by rod-the-farmer

I tried acupuncture once, to relieve a pain extending from my shoulder down my arm to my right baby finger. No reaction, other than discomfort, and certanly no cure. Turns out I have a pinched nerve in my neck, exacerbated by years of long hours poring over a computer screen. One solution was to buy one of those knee chairs, to help straighten my spine while sitting. The other was to set the monitor on top of a plastic cube about 12 inches high. Helps reduce the hunching over. I don't have that job anymore, which I loved, but that's another story.

As for sandals, I have a pair. If I could find out who made them, I would send them back, adjusted. What adjustment ? I will run them both through a bandsaw, from front to back. The material of the soles is a rubbery stuff that picks up small bits of gravel on my 1300 foot driveway. When I walk up to the end, twice a day, to get the morning paper and the afternoon mail, each pace runs the risk of picking up momentarily a small bit of gravel, imbedded into the sole material. At the peak elevation of the flip-flop action, the sole releases the gravel bit, which as like as not lands into the space between the foot and the sandal, so that when you land on that foot next, there is now a piece of gravel in between your foot and the sandal.

Ask me how much fun this is. I typically get 30-40 pieces each time. The cure may be to use sandals with straps that don't allow the flip-flop. Can't be bothered. I have lots of other shoes I can wear. These are on the "burn" pile.

Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:12:00 UTC | #272488