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Review of 'The Four Horsemen' - Comments

Casa Addams's Avatar Comment 1 by Casa Addams

I would love to see the other 4 pages... Other international readers will agree. :)

So go ahead: take more pictures, please!

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:16:00 UTC | #280015

43alley's Avatar Comment 2 by 43alley

My favorite scene is where Harris swings into that burning orphanage and saves those poor children from those ninjas. But I also like the scene where Hitchens catches that bullet with his teeth while Dennett and Dawkins fight that cyborg grizzly bear on top of the erupting volcano.

Or maybe that was a dream I had the other night. I don't know. But it was really fun to watch.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:18:00 UTC | #280017

epsilondelta's Avatar Comment 3 by epsilondelta

Strange, I think I had that same dream.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:58:00 UTC | #280042

Gwiss's Avatar Comment 4 by Gwiss

Me too... Maybe it's a message delivered to our collective unconscious by the Super Friends: Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Mohamed, Seaman, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Lao Tzu. They must be in need of our help!!

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:24:00 UTC | #280055

TheReason's Avatar Comment 5 by TheReason


Dream or 'vision'?

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:27:00 UTC | #280056

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 6 by Stafford Gordon

I don't get the gist of comments one to five; elaborate if you would or if you're able.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:41:00 UTC | #280064

Scep's Avatar Comment 7 by Scep

Here is an idea:

Wouldn’t it make sense to have a special corner on designated to the different enemies of reason? One of the leading candidates for top dog in this category has to be that spoon-bending guru of no reason at all, Dr Deepak Chopra. We could report and expose these guys for what they are; a bunch of pretenders who ‘know’ the unknowable, like ‘knowing’ that there is an afterlife.

Larry King on CNN gives all these supernatural and paranormal nutcases exposure. Here is what Deepak said to the American Nation last week, on Nov 26th:

“People like Richard Dawkins are not addressing the basic mystery of our existence. Where is consciousness, what is the source of our thought, memory, desire, imagination, intention, intuition. I think that is one of the biggest unsolved mysteries today in science and if we throw the baby out with the bathwater we will not address these mysteries”.

One of the commentators on Chopra’s posted this in response:

“Could it be Deepak that you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

In many of Richard’s books one gets a step-by-step account through evolutionary biology with wonderful, factual explanations why we are the way we are. And when it comes to consciousness, memory, desire, imagination, intention, intuition etc. Richard’s pal, Daniel Dennett, and your neighbour V.S. Ramachandran (as well as any others) are discovering daily, with science, where these traits have their origin”.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:53:00 UTC | #280073

epsilondelta's Avatar Comment 8 by epsilondelta

Stafford, we were just joking around about 43alley's comment.

@ Gwiss - You might be right. Me and the Super Friends partied pretty hard this weekend, so they might be a little worn out and in need of assistance.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:54:00 UTC | #280074

Logicel's Avatar Comment 9 by Logicel

Wouldn’t it make sense to have a special corner on designated to the different enemies of reason?

Dr. Steven Novella is another blogging hero of our times: he exposes nuts like Chopra and specific topics at two blogs (Science-based Medicine and Neurologica). If you need information on such topics search those sites for excellent rebuttals. (I have both on my Newsreader, so I never miss a post as they are both active blogs--Science based medicine blog has about 8 writers at present).

Here's one article on Chopra:

And here's the Science Based Medicine blog:

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:50:00 UTC | #280157

TIKI AL's Avatar Comment 10 by TIKI AL

Mr. Stafford, are you any relation to Mr. Spock?

Sorry, just file my comment with "1 thru 5".

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:45:00 UTC | #280191

Scep's Avatar Comment 12 by Scep

Thanks Logicel for your pointers.

It seems evident that once our brains are wired a certain way, rewiring is very hard, if not impossible. That is why we should make our children and grandchildren aware that tradition, revelation and authority or no replacement for evidence. We should teach our kids to always ask for evidence, just like Richard did in his letter to his 10 year old daughter

It was that wonderful man we all love who was trying to light a candle in the dark all his life. He said:
A religion that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by traditional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.
Carl Sagan

It is so sad to see that so many people who leave organized religion end up with these new age pretenders.

PS: I just came back from a three-week stay in Cuba where I gave my little DVD portable to a school, along with a complete set of Carl Sagan’s ‘Cosmos’. It was that wonderful series that ‘saved my soul’ many, many years ago. It will do more good in Cuba than many other countries, since they stress science over religion and have complete separation of church and state.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:01:00 UTC | #280304

j.mills's Avatar Comment 13 by j.mills

Another of the films reviewed by that magazine is Zeitgeist, available to watch online at (it's the one on the right). I just watched it, it's about 2 hours long and came out in 2007. It's probably been discussed somewhere on this site before, but here's a quick review for anyone interested.

After 8 minutes of guff, there are 3 parts. The first is a deconstruction of the origins of Christianity, some parts of which are convincing, others less so. It has little relevance to the rest of the film.

The third part (at about 1:14) is 'standard' conspiracy fare about how bankers control the world and where we're heading - some eyebrow-raising and worrying bits. Trouble with this, and with the whole film, is that a great deal is asserted but little is proven - perhaps too much bitten off in a single film.

However, I was gripped by the second part, beginning at about 40 minutes in. It's all about 9/11 and whether it was staged. There are hundreds of books and films about that, but this serves as a striking 45-minute overview of the Big Questions and is really compelling stuff. It isn't enough to prove a conspiracy, but it's enough to suggest that there remain questions that are serious and unanswered.

There's an entire second movie on that link too, Zeitgeist: Addendum, which I haven't watched yet.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:04:00 UTC | #280315

Diacanu's Avatar Comment 14 by Diacanu


Zeitgeist is a piece of crap, and a plagiarism of 3 other films to boot.

And the 9/11 conspiracy shit is the least convincing, and most thoroughly debunked part of the whole thing.

It's all stolen from a film called I think "short change", or "quick change", and that's been debunked.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:13:00 UTC | #280321

cyris8400's Avatar Comment 15 by cyris8400

This line made me laugh: "Dennett, perhaps the dean of the current literary atheists, is the most philosophical and deliberate, radiating authority almost like a kind of Professor Dumbledore."

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:33:00 UTC | #280326

beanson's Avatar Comment 16 by beanson

"Loose Change"- biggest pile of hogwash you could ever watch

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:48:00 UTC | #280330

Diacanu's Avatar Comment 17 by Diacanu


Thanks, I had a memory fart there.
And agreed.

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:13:00 UTC | #280339

MatthaiNazrani's Avatar Comment 18 by MatthaiNazrani

From the review,

"Fundamentalist Hindus are attacking Christians in Kashmir [...]" what?

"A kind of political Newton's First Law [...] begets a powerful and equal counterforce." huh?

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:37:00 UTC | #280343

Shuggy's Avatar Comment 19 by Shuggy

4. Comment #293997 by Gwiss on November 30, 2008

Maybe it's a message delivered to our collective unconscious by the Super Friends: Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Mohamed, Seaman, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Lao Tzu. They must be in need of our help!!
You missed out Mary Baker Eddy, and who's Seaman?

18. Comment #294289 by MatthaiNazrani on November 30, 2008
"A kind of political Newton's First Law [...] begets a powerful and equal counterforce." huh?
Would make (a little) more sense if they said "Third Law".

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 00:21:00 UTC | #280355

j.mills's Avatar Comment 20 by j.mills

Diacanu: I'm not disposed to believe 9/11 a US conspiracy (not least because of government incompetence), nor to spend much time pursuing the endless claims and counter-claims infecting the web; but on the other hand, if I can phrase this carefully, the official account has not filled the gaps sufficiently in the public perception to damp down speculation. Even if that is just poor 'marketing', it's a serious failure in a time when there is, not unreasonably, little enough trust in governments.

(If you can point me to a concise and authoritative debunking of Zeitgeist's 9/11 material I'd welcome it. EDIT: Belay that, googled umpteen debunking sites! I'll educate myself further...)

EDIT: Okey-doke, Zeitgeist's 9/11 section now thoroughly debunked to my satisfaction. :) I think a problem is our (certainly my) tendency to be impressed by visual evidence - in this case, the tidy way the towers fall, the lack of wreckage at the Pentagon and 93 sites, etc. On the wreckage in particular, we're used to seeing crashes where the plane's shape remains discernible - but of course most crashing planes are trying not to and land on their bellies, not nose-first into a wall. I can now return to unreservedly regarding United 93 as a brilliant film.

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 07:16:00 UTC | #280634

The Architect's Avatar Comment 21 by The Architect

Zeitgeist is poorly researched and it does not cite its sources very well at all. As a friend put it, its not something a skeptic should be proud of.

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:49:00 UTC | #280815

Caudimordax's Avatar Comment 22 by Caudimordax

I think I saw bit of Zeitgeist on YouTube - the part about christianity claimed that the word "horizon" is a corruption of "Horus is risen." Hilarious!

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:02:00 UTC | #280821

j.mills's Avatar Comment 23 by j.mills

Lots of the Christianity stuff was ropey. (Isn't the Southern Cross a polar constellation? How could the sun occlude it - in the northern hemisphere! - to "die on the cross"? And who would notice in daylight?) Still, I don't think the film made that 'horizon' claim. Mind you, I was tired.

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:26:00 UTC | #280984

Mr0Joshua's Avatar Comment 24 by Mr0Joshua

"Secularism Strikes Back..."

Yeah! We totally need an atheist Death Star!

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:51:00 UTC | #281133

PERSON's Avatar Comment 25 by PERSON

Witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational discussion forum.

Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:42:00 UTC | #281384

Macros1980's Avatar Comment 26 by Macros1980

19. Comment #294301 by Shuggy on December 1, 2008 at 12:21 am

4. Comment #293997 by Gwiss on November 30, 2008

Maybe it's a message delivered to our collective unconscious by the Super Friends: Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Mohamed, Seaman, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Lao Tzu. They must be in need of our help!!

You missed out Mary Baker Eddy, and who's Seaman?

It's a reference to South Park's "Super Best Friends" episode, in which it is revealed that despite their adherents' bickering, the prophets of the major religions are actually a team of superhero-like friends who protect the world. Seaman is just a joke 'misfit' character in the group whom the others like to ridicule.

Interestingly South Park completely got away with having Mohamed (therefore an image of Mohamed)in the episode. This was disallowed and censored by Comedy Central in subsequent episodes, due to the Danish cartoon fiasco.

Wed, 03 Dec 2008 04:22:00 UTC | #281928

Robin Burgess's Avatar Comment 27 by Robin Burgess

On a semi-related note, I found this extremely satisfying:

Hurrah, for the atheist apocalipse!

Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:07:00 UTC | #282213