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Muslim pilgrims stone devil amid tight control - Comments

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 1 by Cartomancer

"Let's make the accidents at the stoning part of history, may it never return,"
Lets just make stoning a part of history, may it never return...

Dangerous hobby these people have. It should probably be regulated with some kind of government licensing scheme. I mean, you need a fishing license or a gun license or a dog license, why not an islam license too?

Haj is a useful word in scrabble though.

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:33:00 UTC | #284884

beanson's Avatar Comment 2 by beanson

"Praise God, I think this will change me for the better in everything I do after haj," said Abdullah.

Iranian television showed Iranian pilgrims Sunday chanting "Death to America" and "Death to Israel."

praise god

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:18:00 UTC | #284891

Monosilabbiq's Avatar Comment 3 by Monosilabbiq

So Abraham woke up one day and heard some voices in his head. They said to him that "God" wanted a human sacrifice. Well thought Abraham "It ain't going to be me ! So it's hard luck son !" And thus he became the patron saint of child abusers. Many years later a paedophile prophet heard the story and thought "He's my kind of guy."

Sad bastards

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:21:00 UTC | #284892

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 4 by Styrer-

Disgusting.

Carto

Though I know that your levity implies seriousness, I think you should refrain from making light-hearted comments such as these.

Beanson was taken to task by Steve Zara for degrading the whole tenor of the debate about abusive Catholics on another thread because he made a hyperbolic joke. Beanson's guilt in doing so is no way assuaged by his simple contention that the Catholic Cult has more than enough child abuse to answer for.

By the same reckoning, I would ask you to curtail your notions of both hyperbole and of humour in order that Steve Zara not pick on you in this matter and make of your wise comments - a la Beanson - some rather irrelevant ones.

This is, after all, a retreat where reason and rationality can reside, rather than personal and irrational proclivities.

Best,
Styrer

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:24:00 UTC | #284895

MPhil's Avatar Comment 5 by MPhil

My my, Styrer-

you are on a roll as the decency police today. Carry on, by all means.... I don't mind.

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:35:00 UTC | #284900

MPhil's Avatar Comment 6 by MPhil

P.S.:

Styrer-

PM for you

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:38:00 UTC | #284902

Chris Davis's Avatar Comment 7 by Chris Davis

I strongly recommend http://www.kabahinfo.net/ for anyone wanting a look at just how utterly nuts this whole thing is.

There's a great deal of interesting history, interspersed with a brand of mythology that would be rejected from a Harryhausen film for lack of credibility.

And a charming revisitation of what rotten bitches women are, in case Eve's treachery had slipped the mind. It seems the Ka'aba was once burned down as the result of an incense accident by - you guessed it - a gynaeco-human.

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:39:00 UTC | #284903

Chris Davis's Avatar Comment 8 by Chris Davis

Ooh: just discovered http://live.gph.gov.sa/index.cfm

See the amazing swirling mass!

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:43:00 UTC | #284904

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 9 by Steve Zara

Comment #298953 by Styrer-

I am deeply touched by your interest in my posts.

Sadly, I don't find child abuse a terribly amusing subject for jokes. But it is clear that I should apologise for my obvious lack of humour.

I also apologise for not realising that beanson's hyperbole was indeed a joke on a level comparable with cartomancer's sparkling contributions.

I guess I am so used to considering such simplistic statements something I would expect from a Melanie Phillips or a Peter Hitchens that I am not practised in detecting the deeply hidden subtle wit.

Apologies.

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:49:00 UTC | #284906

johnscarborough's Avatar Comment 10 by johnscarborough

Beanson was taken to task by Steve Zara.

Was he?
Do tell.
Maybe I missed something.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:01:00 UTC | #284908

MPhil's Avatar Comment 11 by MPhil

cartomancer's sparkling contributions.


An understatement if ever I read one.

But I'm really torn here - on the one hand, I just need to read his comments, not merely for their content, but for their poetry. The poetry he can bring to the most mundane propositions - to an extent that the only appropriate way I can describe the delight I felt upon reading some of his posts is 'orgastic'...
The style, the flow - the fine nuances and subtle undercurrents of tone he someone manages to convey through written word.

On the other hand, I must confess a certain despair that for all my love of language, I can never hope to achieve a fraction of that eloquence...

c'est la vie

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:05:00 UTC | #284910

FishNChimps's Avatar Comment 12 by FishNChimps

I'd like to know why the BBC saw fit to run this as a rolling news item on its main terrestrial channel.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:07:00 UTC | #284911

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 13 by Steve Zara

Comment #298966 by johnscarborough

It was nothing. It was a mere statement that child rape was a core principle of Catholicism. Foolishly, having been a Catholic for much of my life, and living in a Catholic community, been taught the catechism and having been to mass most sundays, and later having studied doctrine and not having encountered any statement about child rape, I assumed that this was enough to understand the core beliefs of the religion.

I know realise that such a witty and clearly inoffensive jest was entirely appropriate, and helps build communities of people to fight against the evils of extrememist and fundamentalism.

After all, we never complain when people generalise about atheists do we?

Styrer- has made me see the light.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:08:00 UTC | #284912

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 14 by Steve Zara

Mike-

On the other hand, I must confess a certain despair that for all my love of language, I can never hope to achieve a fraction of that eloquence...


You have to be kidding! You write english as a second language better than I do as my first!

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:10:00 UTC | #284914

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 15 by Styrer-

Comment #298964 by Steve Zara on December 8, 2008 at 11:49 pm


It's quite difficult to miss your posts, even after a break of a few weeks. You do post a lot.

Beanson's post did not deserve your mean-spirited comment.

At least I noted that.

Best,
Styrer

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:51:00 UTC | #284918

Nairb's Avatar Comment 16 by Nairb

Styrer

I can understand that living in Ireland has perhaps made you virulantly anti Catholic.

However saying that pedophilia was part of catholic doctrine is factually incorrect.

Bland statements about millions of people (without evidence) are the problem. People standing up and proclaiming such things are the problem.

If you do the same yourself it doesnt put you in a good or credible position to tackle the issue.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:59:00 UTC | #284921

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 17 by Steve Zara

Comment #298977 by Styrer-

Maybe it is just me, but saying that hundreds of millions of people believe in child rape sounds just a touch mean to me, even in jest.

I was harsh, but deliberately so.

I think if we slip into the use of the thoughtless and pretty offensive simplifications that are used by our opponents, we do harm to our cause.

If I can help to shock people out of that kind of use of language, I have no objection to being called harsh.

Let's try and be Christopher Hitchens, not Peter Hitchens!

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:03:00 UTC | #284922

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 18 by Styrer-

Comment #298981 by Steve Zara on December 9, 2008 at 1:03 am

No.

Beanson was making a joke.

You were critical of him in a thread where you should have been equal to him in his criticism of Catholicism.

You simply point out, by your use of language, how inappropriate your own inappropriately unfair language and criticism can be, and how incapable you are at times at supporting - because of a linguistic nudge to your sensibilities - those whose values you endorse.

Best,
Styrer

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:31:00 UTC | #284930

ridelo's Avatar Comment 19 by ridelo

Having been a catholic I must agree with Steve Zara. I knew a lot of priests: some were fine people, some were bigots, some were bullies etc. just like the rest of the population. They grew up in a community drenched in religion and devoid of other viewpoints. You have to be very intelligent to outgrow that.
And yes, I've known also one who couldn't control his hands in the presence of young boys.
And thank God, we have now modern means of communication like internet. It's an eye opener for a lot of people. He signed His own dead warrant with that. Should never have allowed to be invented.
[EDITED]

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:32:00 UTC | #284931

MrPickwick's Avatar Comment 20 by MrPickwick

It's nice to see them training. In no time they will be able to stone a raped girl real fast.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:38:00 UTC | #284933

Vaal's Avatar Comment 21 by Vaal

Praise God, I think this will change me for the better in everything I do after haj," said Abdullah.

So, stoning a wall is going to change you for the better? What an incredulous clown and a sad excuse for a so called sentient being. Get a life you cretin!

If you really want to change yourself for the better, then why don't you contribute the vast sum you waste on haj to charity, and stone your local wall. Surely your God is everywhere, isn't he?

EDIT: Try reading a book instead of chucking rocks at a wall, you oaf!

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:38:00 UTC | #284934

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 22 by Steve Zara

Comment #298990 by Styrer

You were critical of him in a thread where you should have been equal to him in his criticism of Catholicism.


He wasn't criticising Catholism. He was make a crass and offensive claim. That is not criticism, it is ranting.

I like do try and deal with the actual issues, and how to change people's minds. That involves trying to treat people as individuals, not herds, as people, and not caricatures.

Thst isn't to do with sensibilities, it is basic humanity.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:39:00 UTC | #284935

Logicel's Avatar Comment 23 by Logicel

Going to the Haji moderates Islam?

http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/12/does_going_to_mecca_.html

The last paragraph:

The article discusses some of the other findings from the study, including more tolerant views on the place of women in society, which suggests that the Hajj has an effect of increasing pilgrims' goodwill towards both fellow Muslims and other people in the world.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:39:00 UTC | #284937

Oromasdes1978's Avatar Comment 24 by Oromasdes1978

Ok

So, what precisely does all this accomplish?

They are throwing stones at a wall that supposedly looks like the Devil himself.

Ok

Right

That sounds really sensible, I am sure that is indeed a very naughty wall.


Oh and I love this


"This overcrowding is really scary," said Umm Mohammad, a Syrian pilgrim. "God willing no one will be hurt."t


So if they all crushed each other to death, smashed a few skulls with the stone hurling, pulled a few hamstrings, damaged a few backs and arm muscles from the effort of throwing stuff, a few disastrous shaving cuts etc That would be Allah's will would it?

There they are supposedly hurling stones at dear old bad Satan in Allah's name and he then deems it prudent to get them killed, maimed or badly injured - Allah sounds like a great deity to worship, even when it seems you are doing stuff in his name to his enemy!

:)

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:46:00 UTC | #284942

Tagred's Avatar Comment 25 by Tagred

oh for god's sake lighten up. Everyone makes sweeping generalities and stereotypes. If someone can't get the sarcasm it's their propblem.

The fact is that catholicism has been stereotyped in this way is because people are more aware of abusing priests, not only that but the lengths the catholic church goes to either hide, ignore, deny it happens. And when they do get found out they do a Michael Jackson and pay off the parents.

Family on mothers side are catholic (italian) and even they make the same jokes about the priests. so give over with the being offended and giving people grief for being non-factual. Fact is, not one person here is innocent. Maybe we need a proper study on the likelihood of a person becoming a child abuser when becoming a priest, maybe then it will stop this teddy throwing.

Apologies for bad grammar and spelling, sneakily posting at work shhhh

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:48:00 UTC | #284943

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 26 by Styrer-

Comment #298995 by Steve Zara on December 9, 2008 at 1:39 am

Comment #298990 by Styrer


You were critical of him in a thread where you should have been equal to him in his criticism of Catholicism.


He wasn't criticising Catholism. He was make a crass and offensive claim. That is not criticism, it is ranting.

I like do try and deal with the actual issues, and how to change people's minds. That involves trying to treat people as individuals, not herds, as people, and not caricatures.

Thst isn't to do with sensibilities, it is basic humanity.


You insist on the individual's place. But will you insist on the individual's place and rights when that individual is a member of a group whose ethos is to strip individuals of their rights? Will you trust a converted individual member of Farrakhan's Nation of Islam? Will you not be wise to think that this individual still shares the beliefs of the group?

Expand this. To Islamic belief, which in too many countries denies the individuality of its members in favour of a group thinking contagion and succeeds?

To Christianity? And to its various cults - including Catholicism - which denies the very individuality on which you are insisting but by which individuality Catholicism's universal perniciousness could not be properly taken to task?

I think you have some thinking to do about this. You're a decent bloke, but you're way off decent base.

Best,
Styrer

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:57:00 UTC | #284947

Eshto's Avatar Comment 27 by Eshto

I wish I had a visual. So are there walls all over the place, like little places you go to in each town to throw rocks at? Or is it one big event somewhere? Also how does the wall connect to the story of Abraham and Isaac? I'm not getting the connection.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:59:00 UTC | #284950

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 28 by Steve Zara

Comment #299003 by Tagred

oh for god's sake lighten up. Everyone makes sweeping generalities and stereotypes. If someone can't get the sarcasm it's their propblem.


I'll tell you what. Because people like me seem to have a problem, why don't we encourage posters to include a disclaimer that their generalisations about child rape are actually sarcastic, or witty? That way we can casually laugh off the whole post. We could have the same chuckle at posts claiming all Muslims are suicide bombers, or all atheists are immoral perverts.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:00:00 UTC | #284951

gcdavis's Avatar Comment 29 by gcdavis

The problem lies in the transcription of the Quran, although his memory was said to be word perfect the illiterate Mohammed missed out the last word as he dictated this particular verse to the ever present scribes. It should have read “Devil gets Stoned Man”

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:01:00 UTC | #284952

AForce1's Avatar Comment 30 by AForce1

I just love irony.
The Saudis have taken steps to impove safety at the Haj and "God willing no one will be hurt". So if there are it's God's will, as it must have been at previous Hajs, and if there aren't it God's will (this year) & nothing to do with improved safety.
Am I being too logical?
I think a 5-year old child could see through this argument.

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:03:00 UTC | #284953