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Milky Way 'bigger than thought' - Comments

apaeter's Avatar Comment 1 by apaeter

is it me or is the 914k-km/h-information totally useless? Is this the speed the sun moves around the center? or the galaxy's 'edge' or what?

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:50:00 UTC | #299002

NewEnglandBob's Avatar Comment 2 by NewEnglandBob

It is no wonder it has 50% more mass:

MILKY WAY® Original Bar ingredients: milk chocolate (sugar, cocoa butter, skim milk, chocolate, lactose, milkfat, soy lecithin, artificial flavor), corn syrup, sugar, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, skim milk, less than 2% milkfat, cocoa powder processed with alkali, lactose, malted barley, wheat flour, salt, egg whites, artificial flavor, soy protein.

But seriously, what is all the dark matter?

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:55:00 UTC | #299004

NewEnglandBob's Avatar Comment 3 by NewEnglandBob

1. Comment #313998 by apaeter:

is it me or is the 914k-km/h-information totally useless? Is this the speed the sun moves around the center? or the galaxy's 'edge' or what?


The 792,000km per hour is the sun orbiting around the galaxy from several sources on a Google search.

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:00:00 UTC | #299006

SilentMike's Avatar Comment 4 by SilentMike

One can't help but wonder how you make a mistake that big. I was under the impression that we have this type of data pretty well cornered. When will we be pretty sure that we have it right (or at least "almost right")?

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:06:00 UTC | #299009

Vergil's Avatar Comment 5 by Vergil

Depends on your definition of "almost right". The margin of error is constantly shrinking, but will probably never be zero.

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:12:00 UTC | #299013

Tagred's Avatar Comment 6 by Tagred

apaeter

I read it as the the speed rotating about its centre which helped to estimate the mass of the galaxy.

I think it's a good piece of information though, from a point of view of science coming up with a theory and not just sitting back and saying "this is true" after one effort.

Good to see that commonly accepted ideas are continuously tested and if evidence suggests something different then the model has to change.

A direct contradiction to religion where they fit the evidence to the idea. I think it's a good example of how you must keep striving for knowledge even if you think you already know it all.

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:13:00 UTC | #299014

Agrajag's Avatar Comment 7 by Agrajag

2. Comment #314000 by NewEnglandBob on January 6, 2009 at 4:55 pm

But seriously, what is all the dark matter?

Obviously, that is the cocoa in the milk chocolate! Srsly.
Ste5e

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:15:00 UTC | #299016

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 8 by Dr. Strangegod

Doesn't it seem a little odd to assert both that you've been wrong about the size of the Milky Way and yet know the relative size of Andromeda Galaxy in the same breath? Did you determine the size of Andromeda the same way? Obviously not. So... ?

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:30:00 UTC | #299128

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 9 by robotaholic

i wonder if that means that the odds of there being intelligent life in adromeda is roughly similar to the odds in the milky way...if they have similar mass and and size-

wow, i really love knowing this- OUR galaxy is super huge and super beautiful

but doesn't this mean that Andromeda could be 15 percent larger too?

and Andromeda is a currently active galaxy since about 2-300 million years ago it started sucking stars, dust, and clouds into its supermassive blackhole making jets like a quasar-

What about our galaxy. Could it possibly have an active galactic core- my google skills are lacking tonight - too tired

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:40:00 UTC | #299135

DalaiDrivel's Avatar Comment 10 by DalaiDrivel

This should give Christopher Hitchen's design counter-argument a little more gravity.

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:26:00 UTC | #299150

Gwiss's Avatar Comment 11 by Gwiss

Wow! If this is correct! I'm even smaller then I thought!

On a more serious note, when they say:

"The greater mass means that future collisions with nearby galaxies could happen sooner than thought, according to the researchers."

Are they talking in the range of billions or millions of years? The Milky Way and M31 are suppose to meet in about 4 billion years, has this changed in terms of a few million?

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:12:00 UTC | #299169

theonlybap's Avatar Comment 12 by theonlybap

@Lucus

My suspicion is that it's harder to measure a galaxy when you're sitting inside that galaxy. When looking from outside the galaxy, it's easier to see the whole thing.

Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:32:00 UTC | #299174

jeffers's Avatar Comment 13 by jeffers

Yes - wood for the trees syndrome - by the way the Andromeda galaxy is visible with the naked eye (from a reasonably non light polluted location).

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:59:00 UTC | #299206

Quetzalcoatl's Avatar Comment 14 by Quetzalcoatl

Lucas-

The difference is that we're embedded within the galaxy as opposed to outside of it, and in addition much of what we can see is restricted by things like the galactic core.

Robotaholic-

I think the black hole at the centre of our galaxy is dormant by comparison to that of Andromeda.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:08:00 UTC | #299210

Isaksson's Avatar Comment 15 by Isaksson

"The researchers estimate that the Milky Way contains about 50% more mass than earlier predictions"

The first thought that hit me was, How many more stars with potential life-supporting planets does that amount to. Then my brain partially melted.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:36:00 UTC | #299229

andersemil's Avatar Comment 16 by andersemil

I'm not surprised if we know a lot less about the size of our own galaxy than any other. Analogy, a man trying to measure the size of his own body without a mirror and without a ruler. A lot easier to estimate the size of the man in front of him.

In any event, if we ever discover dark matter, our views and knowledge about galaxies and the universe will probably change completely. The guy who does it has to be the greatest winner of The Nobel Prize ever!

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:49:00 UTC | #299244

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 17 by Roland_F

How many more stars with potential life-supporting planets does that amount to.

As the star counting (estimate) wasn't changed the 50% more mass seems to be dark matter.
A couple of decades ago, scientist were still thinking our galaxy is the biggest in the universe and Andromeda is just 700T light-years away. After the Cepheid measurement as ‘standard candle’ was corrected and Andromeda tripled its distant to 2100T light-years away, it was bigger than Milky way and we just lived in a normal size Galaxy not in the biggest in the universe as thought before. Now we are even to Andromeda, let’s see for how long.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:58:00 UTC | #299256

DavidHarper's Avatar Comment 18 by DavidHarper

Roland_F:


A couple of decades ago, scientist were still thinking our galaxy is the biggest in the universe and Andromeda is just 700T light-years away. After the Cepheid measurement as ‘standard candle’ was corrected and Andromeda tripled its distant to 2100T light-years away, it was bigger than Milky way and we just lived in a normal size Galaxy not in the biggest in the universe as thought before.

I think you have your timescales confused. Edwin Hubble identified Cepheids in M31 back in the 1920s. We've had a pretty good handle on its true distance for almost a century.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:05:00 UTC | #299262

Bernstein's Avatar Comment 19 by Bernstein

Comment #314005 by SilentMike

Now that you mentioned it, I'm beginning to think the same thing. Makes you wonder how much other research is spotty.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:08:00 UTC | #299315

Duff's Avatar Comment 20 by Duff

I don't think there is any such thing as a "dormant" black hole. Just a black hole which isn't getting anything to eat at the moment. A mass of x number of suns can never be dormant.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:27:00 UTC | #299323

isharp's Avatar Comment 21 by isharp

I took this image of the Andromeda Galaxy from my home observatory a couple of years ago with a 3-inch refractor and a Canon DSLR camera:

http://www.astro-sharp.com/images/m31/M31_2005.08.29_NC_1536.jpg

And this one last year:

http://www.astro-sharp.com/images/m31/M31_2007.09.12_1600.jpg

Cheers
Ian.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 05:33:00 UTC | #299388

Oromasdes1978's Avatar Comment 22 by Oromasdes1978

Ian

Utterly amazing, very good photos indeed.

Why do people want to assume that gods carry all the awe and wonder when simply looking at pictures like that can provoke a more positive and meaningful feeling of "cor blimey!"

Thanks for sharing that, keep up the good work!

:)

P.S Please may I have your permission to set the second one as my desktop background?

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 05:45:00 UTC | #299393

godskesen's Avatar Comment 23 by godskesen

@andersemil

I think you're analogy might be a little inappropriate...
A person trying to get an idea of her own size has a central nervous system constantly retrieving sensory data about the position and movement of most parts of her body. It's an easy way to get a fuzzy intuitive sort of idea of her own size.
She can't on the other hand do anything similar with the other guy standing in front of her (EDIT: assuming she also has no ruler for measuring the other person).

And if there is any place that could be treated as the central nervous system of the Milky Way Galaxy it probably isn't gonna be located on "a pale blue dot" in the outer reaches of one of the galaxy's spiral arms...

@Philip1978

Because they don't want to feel "Wow, I'm really small" - instead they want "I'm really important to someone who's really big"?

----

That said, this is all very cool. Yay for science.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:00:00 UTC | #299398

Bernstein's Avatar Comment 24 by Bernstein

Comment #314396 by isharp

Is that how it really looks like? Were the pictures enhanced in any way?

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:05:00 UTC | #299402

Anvil's Avatar Comment 25 by Anvil

21. Comment #314396 by isharp:

Wow, mate! They're fantastic! I was given a 5 inch Newtonian and a book called 'Turn Left at Orion' for xmas - I've never had a telescope before - but it's been cloudy in the north of England since xmas day. Really frustrating. Doh!

Your photos have me all excited about this evening, though - can't wait!!!

Please God, make it a clear night.
Please God, make it a clear night.
Please God, make it a clear night.
Please God, make it a clear night.

Thanks again for sharing them with us.

Anvil.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:27:00 UTC | #299407

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 26 by Tyler Durden

isharp,

Fantastic images, kudos!

I'm into photography, would love to try some astronomy - what telescope would you recommend to purchase for a beginner in order to take such images? And what kinda money are we talking about. Thanks.

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:34:00 UTC | #299411

deadzebra's Avatar Comment 27 by deadzebra

The Spiritual Foundation of the United Nations

The Lucis Trust

UN Meditation RoomThe Lucis Trust is the Publishing House which prints and disseminates United Nations material. It is a devastating indictment of the New Age and Pagan nature of the UN. Lucis Trust was established in 1922 as Lucifer Trust by Alice Bailey as the publishing company to disseminate the books of Bailey and Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society. The title page of Alice Bailey's book, 'Initiation, Human and Solar' was originally printed in 1922, and clearly shows the publishing house as 'Lucifer Publishing CoIn 1923. Bailey changed the name to Lucis Trust, because Lucifer Trust revealed the true nature of the New Age Movement too clearly. (Constance Cumbey, The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, p. 49). A quick trip to any New Age bookstore will reveal that many of the hard-core New Age books are published by Lucis Trust.

At one time, the Lucis Trust office in New York was located at 666 United Nations Plaza and is a member of the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations under a slick program called "World Goodwill". In an Alice Bailey book called "Education for a New Age"; she suggests that in the new age "World Citizenship should be the goal of the enlightened, with a world federation and a world brain." In other words - a One World Government New World Order.

Luci's Trust is sponsored by among others Robert McNamara, former minister of Defence in the USA, president of the World Bank, member of the Rockefeller Foundation, and Thomas Watson (IBM, former ambassador in Moscow). Luci's Trust sponsors among others the following organizations: UN, Greenpeace Int., Greenpeace USA, Amnesty Int. and UNICEF.

The United Nations has long been one of the foremost world harbingers for the "New Spirituality" and the gathering "New World Order" based on ancient occult and freemasonic principles. Seven years after the birth of the UN, a book was published by the theosophist and founder of the Lucis Trust, Alice Bailey, claiming that "Evidence of the growth of the human intellect along the needed receptive lines [for the preparation of the New Age] can be seen in the "planning" of various nations and in the efforts of the United Nations to formulate a world plan... From the very start of this unfoldment, three occult factors have governed the development of all these plans". [Alice B. Bailey, Discipleship in the New Age (Lucis Press, 1955), Vol. II, p.35.]

Although she did not spell out clearly the identity of these 'three occult factors', she did reveal to her students that "Within the United Nations is the germ and seed of a great international and meditating, reflective group - a group of thinking and informed men and women in whose hands lies the destiny of humanity. This is largely under the control of many fourth ray disciples, if you could but realise it, and their point of meditative focus is the intuitional or Buddhic plane - the plane upon which all hierarchical activity is today to be found'. [Ibid. p.220.]

To this end, the Lucis Trust, under the leadership of Foster and Alice Bailey, started a group called 'World Goodwill' - an official non-governmental organization within the United Nations. The stated aim of this group is "to cooperate in the world of preparation for the reappearance of the Christ" [One Earth, the magazine of the Findhorn Foundation, October/November 1986, Vol. 6, Issue 6, p.24.]

But the esoteric work inside the UN does not stop with such recognized occult groupings. Much of the impetus for this process was initiated through the officership of two Secretary-Generals of the UN, Dag Hammarskjöld (held office: 1953-1961) and U Thant (held office: 1961-1971) who succeeded him, and one Assistant Secretary-general, Dr. Robert Muller. In a book written to celebrate the philosophy of Teilhard de Chardin (and edited by Robert Muller), it is revealed "Dag Hammarskjöld, the rational Nordic economist, had ended up as a mystic. He too held at the end of his life that spirituality was the ultimate key to our earthly fate in time and space". [Robert Muller (ed.), The Desire to be Human: A Global Reconnaissance of Human Perspectives in an Age of Transformation (Miranana, 1983), p.304.]

Sri Chinmoy, the New Age guru, meditation leader at the UN, wrote: "the United Nations is the chosen instrument of God; to be a chosen instrument means to be a divine messenger carrying the banner of God's inner vision and outer manifestation."

William Jasper, author of "A New World Religion" describes the religion of the UN: "...a weird and diabolical convergence of New Age mysticism, pantheism, aboriginal animism atheism, communism, socialism, Luciferian occultism, apostate Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism".

http://www.lucistrust.org

You can find out much more about them and how they're involved with the work of the United Nations by following their link "World Goodwill" at the top of their home page.

The Aquarian Age Community

http://www.aquaac.org/

This Website is sponsored by the United Nations and the whole NWO philosophy is there. The page which explains the work of the Aquarian Age Community, as they call themselves, has this proud quote at the header of their page at http://www.aquaac.org/about/about.html

Such a grandeur is ahead!
Such a great step awaits a fiery affirmation.
Our teaching and the affirmation of the Higher
Principles will reveal so much that is great to humanity!
A great period is drawing near: Thus we do create together.

Fiery World
Vol. III, par. 149

Preparing the Way for the Reappearance of the World Spiritual Teacher, the Work of the United Nations and the World-Wide Esoteric Community

This is not Christian theology but New Age paganism. You can also read the NWO quotes I posted, further down this page. Here's another by Curtis Dall, FD Roosevelt's son in law as quoted in his book, My Exploited Father in Law:

"For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas that were his own to benefit this country, the United States. But, he didn't. Most of his thoughts, his political ammunition, as it were, were carefully manufactured for him in advanced by the Council on Foreign Relations One World Money group... Brilliantly, with great gusto, like a fine piece of artillery, he exploded that prepared "ammunition" in the middle of an unsuspecting target, the American people, and thus paid off and returned his internationalist political support.

The UN is but a long range, international banking apparatus nearly set up for financial and economic profit by a small group of powerful One World Revolutionaries, hungry for profit and power.

The depression was the calculated 'shearing' of the public by the World Money powers, triggered by the planned sudden shortage of supply of call money in the New York money market... The One World Government leaders and their ever close bankers have now acquired full control of the money and credit machinery of the U.S. via the creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank."

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:34:00 UTC | #299412

Dr Doctor's Avatar Comment 28 by Dr Doctor

Just remember, photographs of astronomy can reveal far more than the human eye is capable of on its own, so don't get too excited ;-)

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:17:00 UTC | #299438

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 29 by Roland_F

I think you have your timescales confused. Edwin Hubble identified Cepheids in M31 back in the 1920s. We've had a pretty good handle on its true distance for almost a century.

Ok you say 8 decades - and I was talking about "A couple of decades ago" -- hairsplitting ?!?

21. Comment #314396 by isharp : images
great pictures and just with a 3" telecope ...

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:25:00 UTC | #299441

Tezcatlipoca's Avatar Comment 30 by Tezcatlipoca

The greater mass means that future collisions with nearby galaxies could happen sooner than thought, according to the researchers.


We're dooooooomed!

re 314396 cool pics! I just was at my friends house the other day and pointed out to his six year old nephew venus and also Orion. It would be great to get him to look through a telescope and be able to see an image like that.

-edit- added more ooo's to doomed. For melodramatic effect...

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:32:00 UTC | #299444