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New wave for Islamic science - Comments

MindBeforeMatter's Avatar Comment 1 by MindBeforeMatter

The irony in all this is that from 700 to 1500, scientists from the Islamic world didn't need to look into the Qur'an as a source of scientific knowledge: they were too busy researching, questioning, discovering and innovating. YOU WHAT ???!!!! WHAT BULLSHIT!

IT WAS THE QU'RAN THAT INSPIRESD THE SCIENTIFIC PROGRESS AND ACHIEVEMENTS DUE TO ITS MANY VERSES CALLING UPON MANKIND TO REFLECT ON THE CREATION (heavens and earth, living things etc), by the taking out of europe from the dark ages, and originating MODERN SCIENCE. They took on board, the little, from the Greeks that was useful and greatly expanded upon it, and also much more of their own discoveries. ABOVE ALL , THEY UNTRODUCED THE SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT METHOD, UNKNOWN TO THE LARGELY , MAINLY 'HANDS ON CHIN' PHILOSOPHERS AND THEORIZERS WHICH THE GREEKS WERE.

This is testified by top science historians, although once again, the agenda-driven undemocratic secular establishment (eg media,acaemia etc) ignore this or downplay it.
So whatever you have achieved (west) today would probably not have happened as you would might still have been in your dark age.

Also, the reasons why the Muslim world largely reject and ridicule 'evolutionism science' is because they recognise the deception and fraud that it is, therefore your efforts of indoctrination will ,largely, not work. Great thanks also to Adan Oktar for this who has in great style, and in plain english ,exposed to the world the discracefull deception of evolution.

WOULD YOU LIKE PROOF OF THE ABOVE? MOREOVER WOULD YOU ALLOW ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO?

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:57:00 UTC | #326536

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 3 by mordacious1

Religion and science don't mix...one sniff of science and religious belief can disappear (hopefully).

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:02:00 UTC | #326538

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 2 by Roland_F

It's wishful thinking of the author.
religion is always the enemy of science and reason since 2000 years ago Christianity was the victorious state religion of the Roman empire and start burning books and banning all Greek science to start the 'dark ages' .

And Islam is the same, still dreaming about the lost Caliphate (lost power because increasing focus and religion abandoning science) and hope to gain back the "trust and love of Allah" to catch up with the West by concentrating on the dress code, length of beard and avoid to play any music and the like.

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:02:00 UTC | #326537

bitbutter's Avatar Comment 4 by bitbutter

"here's one single lesson from the past we can all learn, it is this: new knowledge needs a willingness to question received ideas - not to be disrespectful, but to ask questions, to think and to debate. "

This sentence looks very cowardly. What has respect got to do with it? and why should anyone anyone be respectful to ideas that are wrong?

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:19:00 UTC | #326541

MindBeforeMatter's Avatar Comment 5 by MindBeforeMatter

Westerners have long been credited withdiscoveries made centuries prior by Islamic scholars but it has been omitted from the historical record and fraudently attributed to others.
Chemistry, physics,optics, algebra, trigonometry, basic arithmetic, mathematical astronomy, modern medicine, pharmacology, geography,ethnography, and geology are all non-western inventions.
Yet few if any individuals or teachers have any clue of this fact.

THESE FACTS ARE DOCUMENTED BY THE WORLD'S TOP HISTORIANS LIKE for eg Harvard's greatest scientific historian who says that modern western medicine originated from the Muslims.
Robert Griffault claims that Islam was categorically the source for the development of European science.

Many othetrs like Goldstein, Hill, Durant, Bernal, Renan, De Vaux and Humbolt have done the same.

The sources: note: non-muslim sources
World Book Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica, The popular science encyclopedia of science, Isaac Asimov's 700 page book Chronology of Science and discovery, George Sarton's Intro to the history of science, Will Durrant's Age of faith and Robert Briffault's Making of Humanity.

Some of the people mentione above have explicitly said that the mistakes or omissions are deliberate and intentional and is aimed at "proving" that the Muslims never produced original science.

The Greeks who were mainly 'hand on chin thinkers' engaged for the most part in philosophy and theories and very little in experiment as it was alien to their temperament as Bernard Lewis says.
And most of their theories and philosophy was refuted by the Muslims (eg Al Ghazali) and also modern science later on
What little they had of any worth the Muslims from their translating used discarding the majority which was worthless.

For more detail on the above see:
Science in the Name of God - How men of God originated the Sciences by Dr Kasem Khaleel

Furthermore see: 1001 Inventions - Muslim Heritage in Our World from Foundation for science technology and civilization

A few admissions from its intro:

Prince Charles 27 Oct 1993 in lecture: Islam and the West at Sheldonian Theatre, Oxford

"If there is much misunderstanding in the West about the nature of Islam, there is also much IGNORANCE about the DEBT our own culture and civilization owe to the Islamic world. It is a failure, which stems, i think from a STRAIGHT-JACKET OF HISTORY , which we have inherited. The Medeival Islamic world from Central Asia to the shores of the Atlantic, was a world where scholars and men of learning flourished. But because we have tended to see Islam as the enemy of the west, as an alien culture, society and system of belief, we have tended to IGNORE or ERASE its great relevance to our own history."

Ms Carleton Fiorina, Chief Executive Officer of
Hewlett-Packard Corp sept 2001 at meeting of all the world's corporation managers:

"...Although we are often unaware of our INDEBTEDNESS to this other civilization, its gifts are very much part of our heritage. The TECNOLOGY INDUSTRY WOULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT the contributions of Arab mathematicians."

As you can see deliberate false presenting of reality is typical of those who have set up and are currently running the secular world order.

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:23:00 UTC | #326542

MindBeforeMatter's Avatar Comment 6 by MindBeforeMatter

Robbert Briffault in book, The Making of Humanity

"The debt of our science does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutianary theories. Science owes a great deal more to the arab culture: IT OWES ITS EXISTANCE." " The Greeks systematised, generalised and theorised, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental enquiry, were altogether ALIEN TO THE GREEK TEMPERAMENT. What we call science today, arose in Europe as a result of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a FORM UNKNOWN TO GREEKS... THAT SPIRIT AND THESE METHODS WERE INTRODUCED INTO THE EUROPEAN WORLD BY THE ARABS."

I COULD NOT RESIST MAKING A BRIEF COME-BACK FOR THIS. I HAVE NOW COVERED IT ALL. I EXPECT THE ABOVE TO BE MOVED TO THE ALTERNATE THREAD.

ANYWAY, JOB DONE, AS I HAVE RENDERED ALL YOUR BELIEFS VAIN, NULL AND VOID.

THE LEGEND JOE 'BIG BANG MORREALE

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:31:00 UTC | #326544

Alovrin's Avatar Comment 7 by Alovrin

THE LEGEND JOE 'BIG BANG MORREALE


In your own mind.
Havent you left yet

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:34:00 UTC | #326547

valerius's Avatar Comment 8 by valerius

@ bitbutter

It might sound a bit cowardly but you have to remember the state many Muslim countries are in. Even asking questions can be seen as a huge step forward in places like Saudi-Arabia. We are sometimes blinded by the our rather, should I say, free state of affairs in societies that embrace freedom of speech.

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:38:00 UTC | #326548

brianjames's Avatar Comment 9 by brianjames

Big Bang, go for it.

You will find that Oktar does not even understand how evolution works, his book is comically ridiculous. We have all had a good laugh at it's deplorable misrepresentations & lack of research.

Try to look at the evidence yourself, don't take the biased opinion of a man who does not even have the integrity to do the appropriate research before attempting to argue against the theory.

Islam was one of the worlds greatest scientific cultures, we owe much to those early scholars.
Unfortunately, Islam as it is practised today in a more fundamentalist form has debased itself & become a backward looking primitive shadow of it's former self. This is a result of too much theocratic interference in Islamic societies.

Try to look at things clearly, the early Islamic scholars would be turning in their graves if they could see what's become of a once great society.

You are doing them a great injustice by letting these power hungry Theocrats whip you into such a defensive frenzy. They are trying to take your people back to the stone age where knowledge is in the hands of the elite & used only as a means of suppressing the population.

Do the research yourself, read everything, not just arguments to the contrary. Do better than Oktar, you are still entitled to disagree but you will have a much firmer foundation from which to do so. If you can quote a chapter from Darwin & give reasons why you disagree, then you can be taken seriously & we will all listen.

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:45:00 UTC | #326552

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 10 by Bonzai

BB/Joe promised us he was going to bugger off because he has already gotten his 'victory'. Why the fuck then is he still trolling around to showcase his stupidity?

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:48:00 UTC | #326553

Absinthius's Avatar Comment 11 by Absinthius

Knock it off with the caps willya Big Bang.. I'm sure it reflects your infantile nature, but at least please pretend to make mature posts.

Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:54:00 UTC | #326555

infinitus's Avatar Comment 12 by infinitus

eegad Big Bang hurts my eyes!

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:06:00 UTC | #326558

Styrer-'s Avatar Comment 13 by Styrer-

This is not to be dismissed out of hand.

Universities in developed countries are welcome hotbeds of re-evaluation, often politically based, following from freedom to think, and universities under the otherwise oppressive regimes of the cult of Islam attract students who are not dissimilarly inclined. Students of Tehran's Amir Kabir university protested rather nicely with firecrackers against Ahmadinejad in 2006, for example.

But the author is over-egging his point by stating that 'the Islamic world is on a bold new path to knowledge and development', and he is simply a fool, and potentially a dangerously ignorant one at that, for buying into the notion that there is validity in the talk of some Islamic scientists 'rediscovering a lost heritage, or restoring the golden age of learning'. While Shari'ah is still in mindless and destructive control of these countries' young learners' lives, preventing them from properly speaking out in the very academic halls which would seem to encourage such, then our optimism for them, at least until they can transfer to proper universities in the civilised world, must remain muted.

Best,
Styrer

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:44:00 UTC | #326566

andersemil's Avatar Comment 14 by andersemil

the national research budget was less than that of an average UK university.


I think we can all guess where the money is spent instead...

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:50:00 UTC | #326570

Kiwi's Avatar Comment 15 by Kiwi

I'm confused, is there such a thing as Islamic science ? Or Christian science (not the monitor !) or FSM science ? Surely it's science done by people of Islamic religious persuasion etc etc - Commenting on the title.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:58:00 UTC | #326572

DoctorE's Avatar Comment 16 by DoctorE

There is no islam science, there is no christian science.
We have human science which should be kept faraway from religious nutters.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:07:00 UTC | #326575

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 17 by Cartomancer

A "golden age" of learning is not something just anyone can magick into existence. It requires cultural openness to new ideas, wealth aplenty to fund scholarly efforts, general prosperity and social stability.

The caliphate of the 9th-12th centuries had this in abundance, especially in Persia, the fertile crescent, and Egypt. Sadly, the political state the middle east is in today rather precludes a similar renaissance. Science and scholarship will flourish in islamic countries as and when they improve their political and social structures, build their economies and develop a culture of intellectual curiosity. Not before.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:10:00 UTC | #326576

tieInterceptor's Avatar Comment 18 by tieInterceptor

Kiwi, I'm totally with you... why do they call it Islamic science when musilms do it? but not Christian or Jewish science when Christians or Jews do it??

I was watching the other day on the bbc a program about Islamic science and they where going around the world showing the audience the first "telescopes" in Turkey, or Iran... forgot, and the maths they had to developed to figure out the time of prayer, algebra etc etc...

so the only thing I can give them, is that they needed to have accurate time measurements to call for prayer 5 times a day, and that motivated maths and astrology somehow...

but is a big jump from that to call everything else "Islamic science" like the dogma somehow made the science possible... for example medicine... didn't they just translate Greek medicine into Arabic? how does that make it Islamic science??

anyway, by the look of it, they run out of science as soon as the Caliphates collapsed, once the ruling and money is out of the hands of some "king" that is sophisticated enough to appreciate science, and power goes into the hands of Mullahs and Ayatollahs, then science is out, and dogma goes in.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:15:00 UTC | #326577

shaunfletcher's Avatar Comment 19 by shaunfletcher

I think, as pointed out by others, that it is both hopelessly optimistic (huge swathes of the islamic world are in a state where a seemingly promising science group could find themselves in a world of trouble just for being accused of being 'unislamic') and simply wrong-headed.

There is not, and has never been, such a thing as islamic science. There was a bunch of science carried out for a period in countries under islamic 'rule' just as there was science in the christian world, but the science has never ever been in any major way a product or a part of the religion.

Even in cases where it has been conducted in the name of religion this has invariably been because that was the only way the scientists were allowed to work. How much astronomy and mathematics were conducted in the thin guise of accurately timing easter?

Where the islamic world is sad is that, unlike the rest of the world scientists are still now forced to wrap up their work in mystical bullshit and to carefully make sure they find nothing out that conflicts with the religion's edicts. This basically makes for flawed and weak research of course.

We saw a tiny hint of it in the US with the bush regimes attempts to stop government funding of research that found out inconvenient facts, but it is to the US community's credit that they reacted to this with such vehemence and defiance.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:15:00 UTC | #326578

Peter Clemerson's Avatar Comment 20 by Peter Clemerson

This is a letter that I nearly sent to the editors of Scientific American. I should have done so.

"Your article in the February 2008 edition of SciAm publicising the launch of the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) provided usefully revealing information. From this and KAUST's website, we learn that research and teaching will be conducted within four Institutes. Under the heading of Health Science and Technology, the Bioscience and Bioengineering Institute will include regional epidemiological studies and population genomics, but application rather than fundamental research appears to be the the goal. Notably absent from any of the Institutes are those disciplines which bring into question the Biblical literalism that is endorsed by the Koran (for example, Suras 50.37 and 23.12). From the information available at present, it would appear that research and teaching staff will be required to stay well clear of any scholarship which promotes a Darwinian view of life's evolution and supporting disciplines such as the Earth Sciences, Astronomy or even Cosmology.

Of course, it is easy to defend these omissions on the grounds that any institution must specialise to some extent, but the particular subject areas chosen for inclusion and exclusion strongly support the view that this university will be subject to strict academic censorship from its very foundation.


Peter Clemerson"

Here are the relevant quotes from the Koran.

Sura 50.37 "Of old we created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and no weariness touched us"

Sura 23.12 "We have created man from an extract of clay; then we made him a clot in a sure depository; then we created the clot congealed blood, and we created the congealed blood a morsel; then we created the morsel bone, and we clothed the bone with flesh; then we produced it another creation; and blessed be God, the best of creators.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:22:00 UTC | #326581

Swede Tooth's Avatar Comment 21 by Swede Tooth

A misleading headline. Just as DoctorE pointed out, there is no Islamic science.

Hopefully though, this could be the way to reduced religiosity in the Islamic world

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:31:00 UTC | #326582

Vaal's Avatar Comment 22 by Vaal

Others are more specific to the Islamic world. One of these is creationism; a second is the view that the Qur'an can be seen as a source of scientific knowledge

So long as they believe that their holy book is a source of scientific knowledge, then all Islamic scientists are completely hamstrung.

Science is about understanding the world about you, without invoking the supernatural, so I fail to see how "Islamic" science is science at all. However, there may be grounds of optimism, as most competent scientists will see through the nonsense of Gods.

However, I am very concerned about the blanket acceptance of Creationism in the Islamic world, especially when it is entering British schools through the back door in "faith" schools. Are there any Muslim scientists, or Muslim "David Attenborough's" out there who confront this anti-knowledge?

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:32:00 UTC | #326583

cam9976's Avatar Comment 23 by cam9976

A person who thinks that in their holy-book is some kind of knowledge better than hard evidence can't possible call themselves a scientist -- it's as simple as that.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:39:00 UTC | #326585

cam9976's Avatar Comment 24 by cam9976

Vaal: it isn't just scientists, the middle east produces very few creative thinkers -- I'm familiar with very few artists, musicians, philosophers, or anything else from that area. The only people originating in that part of the world that seem to make any kind of a global impact are terrorists or despotic politicians.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 01:42:00 UTC | #326587

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 26 by rod-the-farmer

One more aspect to this problem is that there seems to be very little local industry in islamic countries like Saudia Arabia. Those with oil, of course, have companies that focus on the oil, but they are apparently staffed with a great many foreigners. I don't recall ever reading of any companies manufacturing anything. Part of this may be the staggering wealth the oil brings in - no one feels the need to earn a living doing a real job, and earning money from your own hard work. With few non-oil companies, there would not be much opportunity to become aware of scientific research in your field.

Anyone here attending biology courses in a western university ? Can you report on the presence of muslim students in that field ? What is their reaction to evolution, it being such a major concept under the entire field ? Do muslims generally avoid biology ? If not, do they return to their own countries, or just get jobs in the west so as not to confront religious intolerance due to their education ?

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:32:00 UTC | #326599

a.j.g.wolf's Avatar Comment 25 by a.j.g.wolf

DoctorE:

"We have human science which should be kept faraway from religious nutters. "

No, we should bury them under it. Human science, as a core component of rationalism, has proven to be our most successful line of defense against fear-mongering peddlers of holy shit.

Peter Clemerson:

"and blessed be God, the best of creators"

Oh boy, blasphemy inside the Koran... Plural creators!

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:32:00 UTC | #326598

andersemil's Avatar Comment 27 by andersemil

21. Comment #342456 by cam9976

I don't think it's because they do not exist, but most likely the creative individuals either keep their mouths shut or have long since been stoned to death or beheaded for having controversial ideas and contradicting religious leaders. Galileo Galilei nearly suffered the same fate.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:50:00 UTC | #326604

irate_atheist's Avatar Comment 28 by irate_atheist

Drowning, not waving, I reckon.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 02:59:00 UTC | #326606

Anvil's Avatar Comment 29 by Anvil

The actual radio programme is openly repeating what we are all saying...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hj0jp/Islam_and_Science_Episode_1/

I'm listening to it right now. It's great. Well worth a listen.

Anvil.

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:17:00 UTC | #326612

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 30 by SaganTheCat

Roland_F



religion is always the enemy of science and reason since 2000 years ago Christianity was the victorious state religion of the Roman empire and start burning books and banning all Greek science to start the 'dark ages' .


I often feel that Islam, being a much newer religion, has reached a similar stage to that of Christianity in the dark ages.

No doubt the earliest Christians, were free thinkers of their time, prepared to question the status quo just as Muslims would have done after. Once the state accepts a religion (as the Romans accepted Christianity) it becomes a tool for repression of free thought.

Unfortunately for Islam, it’s reached the power hungry bully-boy stage at a time when there are too many book so be burned. Muslim fundies have no time to burn them, much less read them so simply ignore them (or publish a great big shiny book the size of a small table, missing the point if you’re not going to read the books you’re disputing).

Islam has a great history of science and mathematics and as with any science, it would one day come back to bite its religious sponsor but they would not have known that at the time.

Fundamentalism is the only place for God to hide now, the gaps in science are way too small (but only if you have the courage to investigate.

It’s unfortunate that we’re now left with an abhorrent culture born out of a once enlightened society that has such control over some governments that it would be political suicide more than simply courage to spend public money on a discipline that will destroy the movement that gave them power

Wed, 18 Feb 2009 03:21:00 UTC | #326615