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Christians battle each other over evolution - Comments

hi2les's Avatar Comment 1 by hi2les


Thu, 28 May 2009 05:49:00 UTC | #365307

Mbee's Avatar Comment 2 by Mbee

Bottom line: If the religion doesn't match the facts then the religion must be wrong.

Thu, 28 May 2009 05:57:00 UTC | #365311

gcdavis's Avatar Comment 3 by gcdavis

Whatever it is shit seems to figure highly in it!

Collins muddies the water somewhat. He helps discredit the creationists but then seems to give scientific credibility to other religious nonsense.

Thu, 28 May 2009 05:59:00 UTC | #365312

Sally Luxmoore's Avatar Comment 4 by Sally Luxmoore

I think it's interesting that the Discovery Institute – which has long argued that intelligent design qualifies as science – seems to have given up the game and acknowledged that their concerns are religious after all.

Really? Good.

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:01:00 UTC | #365313

Ardiem's Avatar Comment 6 by Ardiem

The Discovery Institute is effectively throwing out an ultimatum here either you believe Jeebus or you believe in evolution: take your pick.

Hopefully this will drive the 'moderate' xians towards an athiest viewpoint as reconciling the two is a 'hopeless endeavour'. Doubt there's much hope for the hardcore - too lost in their delusion.

Collins on the other hand is bit more sinister by claiming that evolution is a mechanism of god. Looks like he's trying to use evolution as proof of god (it doesn't matter that he will fail, the xians that jump ship due to DI's ultimatum will probably be taken in by it)

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:08:00 UTC | #365320

squinky's Avatar Comment 5 by squinky

Obama better not fucking put Collins at the head of the NIH. He'd probably use public funds to build a goddamn frozen trinity waterfall on the campus in Bethesda.

Collins and his BioLogos foundation can eat shit.

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:08:00 UTC | #365319

bamafreethinker's Avatar Comment 7 by bamafreethinker


Dude, what an intelligent, and thought provoking first post for thousands to see!

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:09:00 UTC | #365321

bendigeidfran's Avatar Comment 8 by bendigeidfran

Comment #382430 by 'hi2les'

Is that you Bonzai?

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:13:00 UTC | #365325

Sally Luxmoore's Avatar Comment 9 by Sally Luxmoore

evolution is a mechanism of god

I don't know how any christian can find this a satisfying argument. At best, it posits a lazy, almost totally inactive god, who simply has to flick a chemical 'switch' to get it all in motion. At worst it makes god a sadist, watching the cruelties of suffering and death on a truly massive scale, and doing nothing.
How can they possibly want any such god?

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:14:00 UTC | #365326

NewEnglandBob's Avatar Comment 10 by NewEnglandBob

The Faith and Evolution website's first minute of video was correct, until Philip Johnson opened his mouth to speak. I turned it off after that.

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:19:00 UTC | #365333

gcdavis's Avatar Comment 11 by gcdavis

You cannot believe in atheism any more than you can believe in a vacuum.

Actually your dilemma is the word believe, not SHIT. Banish it! Try using the phrase it is “it is reasonable to assume” every time you would have said “believe”.

You don’t need to believe in anything! Keep a healthy scepticism, challenge all received wisdom, avoid too much dope and alcohol, find a good woman (or man) and don’t let the bastards get you down!

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:20:00 UTC | #365334

Ardiem's Avatar Comment 12 by Ardiem

How can they possibly want any such god?

Sally, I'm not sure where 'want' comes into the equation at all. I sure don't want a god (especially not one like that) but most religious folk weren't given the choice. No one asked them at Sunday school which god they would prefer...

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:22:00 UTC | #365337

Sally Luxmoore's Avatar Comment 13 by Sally Luxmoore

yes, but it's time for them to start thinking for themselves...
The trouble is that it takes a basic understanding of evolution to appreciate the situation and many actively avoid any education on the subject.

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:27:00 UTC | #365340

AfraidToDie's Avatar Comment 14 by AfraidToDie


Please QUIT SHOUTING and turn your all-caps off. If you feel lost, it is only because you are still holding on to the hope there is a sky daddy that will give you life after death. But the life after death he offers may not be what you want. Remember all those times you sinned while enjoying yourself? Guess where you are going? That’s why you are lost and confused, because it doesn’t make any sense and it isn’t true. There is no god, so go ahead and live the good life – and enjoy yourself!

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:30:00 UTC | #365342

Russell Blackford's Avatar Comment 15 by Russell Blackford

All very interesting, but adopting the doctrine of non-overlapping magisteria is about the last thing we should be doing. The fact is that the Discovery Institute has a point: modern, well-established scientific findings do cast doubt on many traditional Christian doctrines. Of course, the DI jokers have the wrong response to this. Instead of challenging the science, it would be better to make a clean break from the Christian doctrines.

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:34:00 UTC | #365346

hi2les's Avatar Comment 16 by hi2les


ok i've quit shouting but im still not sure about atheism, i find it hard to be an atheist why is that?

Thu, 28 May 2009 06:57:00 UTC | #365357

Crazycharlie's Avatar Comment 17 by Crazycharlie

"The Discovery Institute", what a bullshit name. It should be called "The Willful Ignorance Institute" Also Francis Collins may have done good work on the human genome project but because he's such a true believer in Christianity he's always suspect in my opinion.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:03:00 UTC | #365359

Caudimordax's Avatar Comment 18 by Caudimordax

ok i've quit shouting but im still not sure about atheism, i find it hard to be an atheist why is that?

1. Because our whole civilization is permeated with the poison of religion.

2. Because it's frightening to realize that you have to depend on yourself, and that there is no supernatural entity to get you out of trouble if you just pray hard enough.

You really should read The God Delusion if you haven't already. Also The End of Faith and God is Not Great.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:03:00 UTC | #365360

zecat's Avatar Comment 19 by zecat

can one be a Christian and accept evolution? The answer, as far as the Discovery Institute is concerned, is a resounding: No.

Agree. Remedy: leave the church.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:10:00 UTC | #365366

hi2les's Avatar Comment 20 by hi2les

i have read the god delusion (i was an atheist when i read it) but now im not so sure i think there's something wrong with my brain! HELP.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:12:00 UTC | #365368

Roger Stanyard's Avatar Comment 21 by Roger Stanyard

Looks like the Disco Institute has finally admiited that it lost at Dover - no longer can it now go to the courts and claim that ID has "nothing to do with religion, no siree Bob."

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:13:00 UTC | #365369

Luis Dias's Avatar Comment 22 by Luis Dias

Watching the intellectual feud between the Discovery Institute and BioLogos is a bit like watching a race in which both competitors are running full speed in the opposite direction of the finish line. It's a notable contest, but I don't see how either is going to come out the winner.

Excellent paragraph by New Scientist's writer, Amanda.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:14:00 UTC | #365371

Sally Luxmoore's Avatar Comment 23 by Sally Luxmoore

ok i've quit shouting but im still not sure about atheism, i find it hard to be an atheist why is that?

Thank you for turning the volume down. We're really quite friendly here, you know (just a bit robust occasionally).

Why not have a read through the contributions in 'Converts Corner'? You may find it less hard when you see how often it has been done before.

Edit: Look at the top of the page, under Community.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:16:00 UTC | #365372

Caudimordax's Avatar Comment 24 by Caudimordax

19. Comment #382491 by hi2les - Uh oh. Don't panic. If you're someone who needs meds (like me) you have to keep working on it to find the right combination and dosage. And if you "can't" be an atheist, so what?

Seriously, talk to your doctor about the meds.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:19:00 UTC | #365374

Mr. Davies's Avatar Comment 25 by Mr. Davies

Actually, New England Bob, the video is crap from the onset. It was not "one mans idea", that changed everything- does no one remember Alfred Russell Wallace? How about the contributions of Lyell, Hutton, William 'Strata' Smith? The comparative anatomy of Cuvier? Sating that Darwin just pulled this idea out of his atheistic arse and the world ran with it is at the heart of their argument. And it's a lame one.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:24:00 UTC | #365377

Tintern's Avatar Comment 26 by Tintern

This could be a good way forward. Set up a load of bogus Christian sites and muddy the waters, just like the fundies do, calling themselves "Discovery Institute" and other grandiose-sounding names implying credibility. Make sure every respectable-sounding "foundation" we set up has a different view but is still claiming to be the truly representative Christian stance on evolution and ID. Deliberate mis-information is their stock-in-trade. If they get at each other this easily for real, let's jump in and stir it up a bit. They're always doing it to science. Why don't we have a go at it£

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:37:00 UTC | #365392

M ? g's Avatar Comment 27 by M ? g

Religion doesn't have any precise definition... so you can call yourself a religious and accept material science... if that's your thing.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:40:00 UTC | #365393

gcdavis's Avatar Comment 28 by gcdavis

You don’t have to be an atheist! I seems like you have an internal battle going on, perhaps affected by other problems in your life. From a personal point of view, god or no god, WTF! I stopped believing in god a very long time ago, it wasn’t a big deal for me but these days I am much more concerned about the affect religion has on the wider society and the way it makes people behave.

Give yourself a break. If you still have a faith there is no need to be ashamed. I guess you are young, things are so much more intense, I remember what it was like. I have an 18 year old daughter who is often depressed, she isn’t anorexic but is overly concerned about her looks and weight, she needn’t be, she is beautiful. She will get over it, I’m sure. My son 26 had OCD in his teens and is now totally over it, still a bit mixed up but a talented singer/songwriter, as yet unrecognised!

Best of luck

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:41:00 UTC | #365396

M ? g's Avatar Comment 29 by M ? g

5. Comment #382443 by Ardiem on May 28, 2009 at 7:08 am
The Discovery Institute is effectively throwing out an ultimatum here either you believe Jeebus or you believe in evolution: take your pick."

Won't work. A religious sect can only defeat another sect by the sword. That's what history shows. What else can they do? Religion is a no fact zone. So there's no decisive argument to use...

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:42:00 UTC | #365397

Crazycharlie's Avatar Comment 30 by Crazycharlie

Mr.Davies-- Of Course Darwin didn't "pull this idea out of his atheistic arse" ,to use Newtons immortal phrase he "Stood on the shoulders of giants." Darwin was a most honest,humble, and generous man who always acknowledged other scientists contributions to the study of natural history. He published the idea of Natural Selection jointly with Wallace despite having worked out N.S. many years before Wallace. Darwin remained friends with Wallace and Charles Lyell throughout his life.

Thu, 28 May 2009 07:44:00 UTC | #365399