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Creation Museum: Is This How World Began? - Comments

SamKiddoGordon's Avatar Comment 1 by SamKiddoGordon

The STUPID, it burns!

facepalm,

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 13:51:00 UTC | #386159

i k e's Avatar Comment 2 by i k e

27 million dollars burned. Couldn't these good christian souls help a lot of poor people with that money?

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:19:00 UTC | #386163

NewEnglandBob's Avatar Comment 3 by NewEnglandBob

A poorly written article from ABC news.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:26:00 UTC | #386169

Mr. Forrest's Avatar Comment 4 by Mr. Forrest

"In the singular moment of noticeable conflict, Derek Rogers, a computer science major at Dalhouise University in Nova Scotia, Canada, was detained by guards for wearing a shirt with a slogan recently plastered on buses by activist groups that read "there's probably no God, so get over it." He was escorted to the bathroom and ordered to flip the shirt inside-out.

"One family of religious people told me that I had ruined their trip, and they drove all the way from Virginia," said Rogers."

HOW FUCKING PATHETIC ARE YOU IF A T-SHIRT CAN RUIN YOU ENTIRE TRIP?!?!

And BTW aint it lovely how the museum supports this sort of nascent fascism by "shutting up" the t-shirt?

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:40:00 UTC | #386179

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 5 by Border Collie

Absurd and surreal.
Watch the Francis Collins video also. Scary.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:56:00 UTC | #386186

foolfodder's Avatar Comment 6 by foolfodder

They got the text of the t-shirt wrong.

The article is very similar to the one here: http://www.aip.org/isns/reports/2009/090807_museum.html which also has the same mistake.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:19:00 UTC | #386194

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 7 by Dr. Strangegod

In the singular moment of noticeable conflict, Derek Rogers, a computer science major at Dalhouise University in Nova Scotia, Canada, was detained by guards for wearing a shirt with a slogan recently plastered on buses by activist groups that read "there's probably no God, so get over it."
Actually, I'm betting his shirt said, "there's probably no God, so stop worrying and enjoy life," because nothing like what they quoted was ever on a bus. Way to distort reality so that Derek seems like an asshole, and by association, so do we all. Thanks ABC. Dicks.
He was escorted to the bathroom and ordered to flip the shirt inside-out.
Excuse me? How did that work out exactly? Was there a sign posted at the entrance saying that freedom of speech was left at the door? Or saying that certain kinds of speech would be cause for removal? ACLU? Anybody? Cause I'm pretty sure that's not legal. Fuck it, I'm buying that Early Man shirt (http://www.earlymanarmy.com/merch.html - the one at the bottom) and going down to Kentucky.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:29:00 UTC | #386198

decius's Avatar Comment 8 by decius

Comment #403659 by Mr. Forrest

HOW FUCKING PATHETIC ARE YOU IF A T-SHIRT CAN RUIN YOU ENTIRE TRIP?!?!

And BTW aint it lovely how the museum supports this sort of nascent fascism by "shutting up" the t-shirt?


Indeed a pathetic suggestion and a tyrannical attitude in dealing with the mildest form of dissent.

Somewhere, inside the thick skull of the true believers, occasionally, a coalition of rogue neurons conjurs to flash a mental neon sign that reads "BULLSHIT". No one, no matter how stupid, could possibly miss the falsehoods and self-refuting inconsistencies that weave the narrative of christian mythology - it takes great personal commitment to maintain voluntary blindness and deafness to reason indefinitely.

In order to be preserved, preposterous belief-systems need constant, loud and costly reinforcement; be it a pilgrimage on one's knees where a miracle is fabled to have occurred (simply walking would be too mundane a system of locomotion) or a lengthy (the longer the better) drive from Virginia to the Flintstones museum, where crowds gather in fervent expectation of being shamelessly lied at. The bigger the lie, the stronger the reinforcement.
Please note how, in their complaint, the fact that they drove from Virginia is treated as an aggravating circumstance to be laid on the 'culprit's' doorstep.

I have no difficulty in believing that the Virginian family truly had their experience completely spoiled. That impudent t-shirt caused their rogue neural networks to light up and fire, and it was as disruptive and unwelcome a trauma, as any loud bang interrupting a deep, deep sleep.

Edited-clarity

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 15:53:00 UTC | #386205

BlueCollar8theist's Avatar Comment 9 by BlueCollar8theist

There is no stupidity that enrages me more than deliberate stupidity. This 'museum' is a classic example of the latter. *sigh* buy 'em books, send 'em to school and they emerge thinking humans and dinosaurs existed together. Only in America...

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:01:00 UTC | #386206

HenryFord's Avatar Comment 10 by HenryFord

"Was there a sign posted at the entrance saying that freedom of speech was left at the door? Or saying that certain kinds of speech would be cause for removal? ACLU? Anybody? Cause I'm pretty sure that's not legal."

As pathetic as this incident is, my understanding of America's freedom of speech meant that you were free to bar people from your property if they didn't follow your rules. It is only in public arenas that there is total freedom of speech. But I'd appreciate some profesional knowledge on this.

At the moment the "freedom of speech" argument bugs me as I don't think it is valid.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:03:00 UTC | #386207

liberalartist's Avatar Comment 11 by liberalartist

I just cringe at the thought of so many children being dumbed-down by this crazy place. That is real harm, and it doesn't bode well for the future of this country either, if you consider there have probably been hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of visitors.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:14:00 UTC | #386212

Driver's Avatar Comment 12 by Driver

and mankind spread from continent to continent by walking across the floating trunks of trees knocked down during the Biblical Flood.


Of course this must mean that some of these people gave marsupials piggy-back rides to Australia.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:24:00 UTC | #386215

Sci_Guy_Bri's Avatar Comment 13 by Sci_Guy_Bri

"...the Creation Museum sent a letter to Myers warning that "loud, disrespectful, destructive, obscene, or abusive behavior will not be tolerated, and may result in your removal from the premises."


Unless it's pro-Christian. In which case we understand you're just feeling God's spirit... or some other such nonsense.

"...said a statement released by Mark Looy, co-founder and chief communications officer for the museum. "[W]e trust that such skeptics will open to reassessing their dogmatically held view as they tour the Creation Museum."


He uses the word "dogmatically" in a negative, condescending way... Doesn't he realize he subscribes to one£ Oh, but it's not his, and therefore to be spit upon.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:36:00 UTC | #386220

Peacebeuponme's Avatar Comment 14 by Peacebeuponme

And BTW aint it lovely how the museum supports this sort of nascent fascism by "shutting up" the t-shirt?
You can imagine the christian outcry had a god-botherer been told to change a jesus shirt in a real museum.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 16:43:00 UTC | #386223

PrimeNumbers's Avatar Comment 15 by PrimeNumbers

A couple of weekends back I was at a science museum in California. There were a number of kids walking around with religious t-shirts with biblical quotes on them. None were ordered to turn their t-shirts inside out or not wear them in the science museum. No complaints what-so-ever.

And that is why the creation "museum" is wrong. Hypocrites.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:08:00 UTC | #386234

PERSON's Avatar Comment 16 by PERSON

ABC seems to be making stuff up. If you search for the exact phrase "there's probably no God, so get over it" on Google the only references you get are this article, blog posts about it and a post on a body-building forum from 2006.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:16:00 UTC | #386237

Jos Gibbons's Avatar Comment 17 by Jos Gibbons

Comment #403666 by Border Collie

I just saw it. OUCH.

"They're compatible because I've used the word "book" to describe them both." No Dr Collins, their compatibility or lack thereof depends on WHAT THEY SAY.
"God didn't tell us how it happened in Genesis because we weren't ready for scientific explanations." Why did he lie then? He could have said "I just did it, end of" rather than giving a long list of ages of fathers, a sequence of creation events, two conflicting accounts in Genesis 1/2 etc.
"A scientist can believe in laws of nature being violated by believing they were created by a guy who flipped their off switch." So, make something that makes no sense make sense by assuming something else unnecessarily that makes even less sense. Besides, turning laws on/off isn't that simple. I notice this line of argument is never used by those who know of Noether's theorem.
Oh, but wait, I've not undermined religion by tearing his logic to shreds because I have to deal with "sophisticated" believers. Judging by the quality of the arguments used by examples I've been given of these, the only definition of sophisticated I can imagine is "you've not refuted him yet". I haven't got the time to refute every theist on Earth! The important thing is that FC is regularly cited as the best they have, so if he's no good none of them will be.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:13:00 UTC | #386247

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 18 by Steve Zara

Judging by the quality of the arguments used by examples I've been given of these, the only definition of sophisticated I can imagine is "you've not refuted him yet".


Applause.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:16:00 UTC | #386248

DalaiDrivel's Avatar Comment 19 by DalaiDrivel

Adam and Eve share the Garden of Eden with dinosaurs; the beaks of Darwin's finches are explained by God's will, not evolution; and mankind spread from continent to continent by walking across the floating trunks of trees knocked down during the Biblical Flood.


My question is, what rules are there governing what cannot be explained by "God"?

Indeed all that is in the quote is possible with the right kind of God- or perhaps there is a philosophical argument or contradiction I should be made aware of. Of course, we understand that such a God has only been defined and not been proved to exist beyond reasonable doubt.

In a petty way, God becomes more remarkable with every wonder that is ascribed to him- and all the more horrific as a proposition to prove. I wish this could be impressed on more believers, creationists or not- creationists more so, however.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:23:00 UTC | #386251

Peacebeuponme's Avatar Comment 20 by Peacebeuponme

Watch the Francis Collins video also. Scary.
I don't see where this is, anyone have a link?

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:32:00 UTC | #386253

DalaiDrivel's Avatar Comment 21 by DalaiDrivel

Prime Numbers,

A couple of weekends back I was at a science museum in California. There were a number of kids walking around with religious t-shirts with biblical quotes on them. None were ordered to turn their t-shirts inside out or not wear them in the science museum. No complaints what-so-ever.

And that is why the creation "museum" is wrong. Hypocrites.


This makes complete sense to me. You can undermine the entire scam of religion with a single T-Shirt, so obvious is its deceit.

To attempt to undermine science in the same way is rightly viewed as laughable, transparent and open as science's process is, and cumulative over the centuries in the evidence that it works. Science can afford to allow its naysayers to make fools of themselves.

When naysayers are clothed in suits with briefcases, arguing to change laws- that is an undermining that should be taken a good deal more seriously.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:35:00 UTC | #386255

Jos Gibbons's Avatar Comment 22 by Jos Gibbons

Comment #403733 by Peacebeuponme

The 2-page linked article on whom this thread comments features the video on page 1, with a play button you have to press for it to be anything more than an image clumsily pushing text out of the way.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:43:00 UTC | #386259

Peacebeuponme's Avatar Comment 23 by Peacebeuponme

Right in front of my eyes then!

Thanks, Jos.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:46:00 UTC | #386260

phil rimmer's Avatar Comment 24 by phil rimmer

Comment #403731 by DalaiDrivel

The thing is every creotard knows every Godly Fiat that has to be invoked is another failure for them. Though God the Builder can build his world any way he chooses, Fiats don't have a good re-tale value and need to be replaced with something mechanically more reliable whenever possible.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:59:00 UTC | #386265

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 25 by Dr. Strangegod

HenryFord said:

As pathetic as this incident is, my understanding of America's freedom of speech meant that you were free to bar people from your property if they didn't follow your rules. It is only in public arenas that there is total freedom of speech.
That is correct, as far as I know. My question, however, was whether or not there was a sign or list of rules or anything whatsoever upon entering the museum that barred certain kinds of t-shirts. If there was, and then he broke the rule, then their action was fine. If there was not, then they can't just make up new rules once you've paid the fee and gone inside.

It's just like at many music venues, if they have a sign out front that says "No Moshing", and then you mosh, they are justified in kicking you out without a refund. If there is no such sign, and THEN you get kicked out for moshing, they owe you the price of the ticket. You could take them to court for kicking you out for breaking a rule that was not posted.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:47:00 UTC | #386276

DalaiDrivel's Avatar Comment 26 by DalaiDrivel

phil rimmer,

So every exhibit in the Creation Museum has an implied disclaimer attached: "Subject to impending better explanation"?

There's hope.

Yet, clearly, to believe that God coordinated thousands (millions?) of tree trunks to span oceans so that bipeds could cross them is a fabulously unbelievable claim. I can't help but feel that if a believer is content to believe a story like that at any point in time, they are either stupid, or simple brainwashed with their desire for a better explanation in the future negligible.

And I think that, even if every Godly Fiat is a closed door and failure of explanation (which it is), it is surely an open window for a triumph of faith!

Grrr.

The bottom line- every sensible person, and every believer with an iota of sense, defers to science. The difference between us and believers of all stripes, is that we, as non-believers, do not allow God to occupy gaps in science, or override science, as a temporary explanation.

To a believer, God is responsible for everything. I suppose that to debate how God did something in the absence of a scientific explanation implies that he may not have done anything at all, and everything transpired according to physical laws, which a scientific explanation if found, would require. And if he did not do anything at all, it is possible that he does not exist, and is a superfluous assumption.

Which we, as non-believers, think he is.

In this line of reasoning, isn't certainty of how God did things in the absence of a scientific explanation necessary to assure certainty of God's existence?

But there is no such thing as a temporary scientific explanation, is there? We don't "know" something for a while and then "know" something different? We can admit we don't know something, but have ideas. Strictly speaking, scientists never "know" anything, I suppose, and ideas are only ever disproved.

This leads me to think that it is impossible to be a believer and think scientifically. I think it also shows how science and religion are fundamentally incompatible.

I think, for faith's part in all this, that it is a vow of certainty. Faith is not built upon evidence, as Francis Collins would say. It is a direct substitute for evidence, and goes far beyond what evidence could do (evidence does not provide certainty). Faith is absolutely useless for scientific purposes, and in fact, by avowing certainty in an a priori proposition, would negate the need to verify that proposition in the first place. Science can never support certainty.

When the believer is presented with a proper scientific explanation, they must transfer their faith and certainty to the new explanation, and allow their faith to run amok in any new gaps.

The believer must think, quite bogglingly along these lines:

"Today, I know that it all happened this way. I have faith in this. Tomorrow it may be another way. I will have faith in that too."

It reminds me of an Oceania (of 1984) citizen's response to war.

"If Oceania changes its enemy tomorrow, say to Eastasia, it will always have have been at war with Eastasia."

Just thinking aloud... I've been re-reading and editing this post for too long. I'll just put it out there now!

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:24:00 UTC | #386284

Carl Sai Baba's Avatar Comment 27 by Carl Sai Baba

Comment #403641 by i k e on August 8, 2009 at 3:19 pm
27 million dollars burned. Couldn't these good christian souls help a lot of poor people with that money?


The money was not burned, it was paid to people who construct buildings, models, robots, etc.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:43:00 UTC | #386287

Stewart Cowan's Avatar Comment 28 by Stewart Cowan

Do you mind if we walk down Real Street for a moment? Now, I've no idea what Ken Ham's museum is teaching, but...

300 people descended on this private museum, by the looks of it, nearly all wearing T-shirts whose slogans were meant to provoke or upset the staff and other visitors there.

I don't know why the young man was really asked to leave, but I imagine these people made the place seem unpleasant and intimidating.

Well, how would you like to work in a museum and have 300 people roaming around joking and sniggering?

I notice that PZ Myers treated his disciples like disruptive schoolchildren by warning them to behave themselves like civilised human beings.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/the_creation_museum_has_given.php


EDIT:

Actually, the group was asked not to wear: "T-shirts or other clothing with images or wording that would be considered offensive to our staff and others at the museum. Such conduct will not be tolerated."

Funny how those who shout loudest about wanting 'respect' are those least likely to give it.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 21:18:00 UTC | #386292

manicstreetpreacher's Avatar Comment 29 by manicstreetpreacher

Eye-witness account of a lecture given by the head of Answers In Genesis, Ken Ham, at Liverpool University in 2008:

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=399

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 21:20:00 UTC | #386293

WilliamP's Avatar Comment 30 by WilliamP

I was in Cincinatti a couple weeks ago, just a short trip away from the Creation Museum. I thought about going, but the admission fee is $20. I could not justify giving them $20 to put toward their silly cause, even if I would get a good laugh out of it.

Sat, 08 Aug 2009 21:26:00 UTC | #386296