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The new crybaby theists - Comments

JSB2024's Avatar Comment 1 by JSB2024

Tremendous article.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:05:00 UTC | #411382

Mr Blue Sky's Avatar Comment 2 by Mr Blue Sky

Yes, taking offence is a more public stance as they have little left but here in EU land there is a large and sneaky if splintered right wing xtian movement headed by some prominent parties. Even Gordo is guilty of promoting nonsense in our schools. Only recent victory for us seems to be removal of cricifixes in Italy but the UN EU and their multicultural (pro whackos) agenda wil be damaging - perhaps we should take offence more openly more often?

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:23:00 UTC | #411386

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 3 by Richard Dawkins

Terrific response by Michael Brull to the craven wingeing of Greg Craven on 'A Plague of Atheists'. It is almost impossible to believe that Greg Craven could be the vice-chancellor of a university -- until you realise that it is the Australian CATHOLIC University. Then it all kind of falls into place.

Richard

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:29:00 UTC | #411389

Mark Jones's Avatar Comment 5 by Mark Jones

Wait for the response; "Nasty man called me a crybaby!"

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:35:00 UTC | #411393

Mango's Avatar Comment 4 by Mango

Yes, a nice show of support for a functioning liberal democracy. Really, it's a division between a liberal democracy with freedom of speech, gender equality, protection of children, et cetera, and multicutralism and its attendant cultural relativism. It's hard to espouse both liberal democratic ideals and multiculturalism simultaneously.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:35:00 UTC | #411391

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 6 by rod-the-farmer


Secondly, hearing of the need for religious beliefs to be treated respectfully by (edit - surely this should be from) evangelical Christians is galling. This is a religious faith full of those who believe in the importance of preaching to unbelievers and converting them. Obviously, if they respected the views of atheists and believers in different religions, they would not indulge such practices. Yet many Christians, with scriptural support, think non-believers and the un-baptised are going to hell. How respectful is this?


Could not agree more. I think the minute they approach someone outside the confines of their church property, they should immediately lose their tax exemption. They want to discuss their religion in my face, but when I challenge what they tell me, they are offended. It is to laugh.

And then they tell me I will be punished for all eternity, by being sent to hell. Really. Evidence for this ? Bodies ? Testimony ? Photos/videos ? No ? I thought not.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:40:00 UTC | #411394

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 7 by rod-the-farmer

The second link in the article above does not work. Try this if you want to read the original article that caused the response.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/a-plague-of-atheists-has-descended-and-catholics-are-the-target-20091103-hv52.html

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:43:00 UTC | #411395

Ophelia Benson's Avatar Comment 8 by Ophelia Benson

I don't know, Richard, I think Craven-as-vice-chancellor is pretty staggering even though he's vc of a *Catholic* university. The sheer vulgarity of that "article" would seem like an obvious embarrassment to anything calling itself a university...except maybe the really home-made institutions like the risibly-named "Bob Jones University."

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:52:00 UTC | #411397

mitch_486's Avatar Comment 9 by mitch_486

I just have to repeat this...

Firstly, in a liberal democracy, people should adjust to the prospect of other people finding their views stupid, immoral, pernicious, or any other terrible thing. For example, consider the case of a racist. They may view others with contempt, and members of the targeted minorities might respond with contempt for the views of the racist. Should we demand that victims of racism respect the beliefs of racists? Of course not: we grant the truism that some beliefs are stupid, immoral, pernicious and other terrible things.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:53:00 UTC | #411398

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 10 by SaintStephen

I liked it.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:18:00 UTC | #411409

TIKI AL's Avatar Comment 11 by TIKI AL

Thanks for the link that works, Rod. Although I wish I had adhered to my rule of not putting any Craven images before me, Greg had some truth in his atheist hating "article":

"In an average week of atheistic bigotry in the Melbourne media, we can expect to learn that Catholics endorse child molestation, hate all other religions, would re-introduce the crusades and the auto de fe at the slightest opportunity, despise women, wish to persecute homosexuals, greedily divert public moneys for their own religious purposes, subvert public health care, brainwash children, and are masterminding the spread of the cane toad across northern Australia."

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:19:00 UTC | #411410

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 12 by alaskansee

Good to see our Aussie friends handed him his ass in the comments section of the original article.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:37:00 UTC | #411413

carbonman's Avatar Comment 13 by carbonman

Splendid piece. Can we get it into Gideon Bibles and religious education textbooks as an insert? :)

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:05:00 UTC | #411420

HenryFord's Avatar Comment 14 by HenryFord

It soothes the soul to read something like this every now and then. This was like having someone get a big blanket, wrap it around you and say "it's ok, we know there are a lot of crazies out there and we're all in it together".

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:12:00 UTC | #411423

Max of Earlobes's Avatar Comment 15 by Max of Earlobes

The surest sign of insecurity in somebody defending a viewpoint is if they try to avoid having the discussion.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:13:00 UTC | #411424

DoctorE's Avatar Comment 16 by DoctorE

Call the wambulance

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:48:00 UTC | #411453

Sally Luxmoore's Avatar Comment 17 by Sally Luxmoore

Having lost the power of the gun in the West, apologists of religion have a new weapon: being offended.


Never mind the gun - I'm relieved that they've given up on the rack and burning at the stake.
I'm happy for them to be offended regularly, even daily, until they get the point that their 'hurt feelings' are completely irrelevant and that beliefs do not 'deserve' respect.

Edit: I have real trouble trying to get my head around the concept of a 'catholic' university... How do you do 'catholic' maths, or 'catholic' chemistry?

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:55:00 UTC | #411455

Pilot22A's Avatar Comment 18 by Pilot22A

I must disagree with Mr. Brull. the theist's aren't "crybaby's."

They are the adult version of crybaby's. Whiners.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:04:00 UTC | #411461

hiraethog's Avatar Comment 19 by hiraethog

The only good point he made is:

"There is nothing clever, witty or funny about hate."

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:18:00 UTC | #411469

jonjermey's Avatar Comment 20 by jonjermey

Unfortunately - or perhaps not - the Catholic church in the west is suffering a manpower crisis (I use the word 'man' deliberately) and can no longer recruit enough bright heterosexual males to fill its positions: women and decloseted gays, of course, need not apply. This will inevitably result in a gradual descent into mediocrity by its officials and authorities; so expect to see plenty more articles of the Craven calibre.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:22:00 UTC | #411473

Rationalartist's Avatar Comment 21 by Rationalartist

Slightly off topic, but the moment I had finished listening to Greg Craven on point of Inquiry I clicked on the link to this article! Glad to see it is not the same Greg Craven! Coincidence? My rational mind tells me "yes"!

http://www.pointofinquiry.org/greg_craven_whats_the_worst_that_could_happen/

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:28:00 UTC | #411478

alan baylis's Avatar Comment 22 by alan baylis

Rather than confronting (say) Dawkins' arguments with counter-arguments, people like Craven, and many others like him, instead cry out: why are you picking on us? All we want is for you to respect our beliefs. And so, the crybaby theists hide behind the demand for respect, which sounds reasonable enough. The more shameless – and their ranks are represented in many religions, such as Muslims, Christians and Jews – complain that when someone criticises their religious faith, the people who belong to that religion are being subjected to abuse.


This ‘disrespecting our beliefs is abuse’ argument is becoming more common among theists, including on this site. This is clear evidence that they are rattled and are looking for ways to shut down the debate. Expect a lot more of this in future, even down to trying to use legislation to further this cause.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:06:00 UTC | #411496

mmurray's Avatar Comment 23 by mmurray

Edit: I have real trouble trying to get my head around the concept of a 'catholic' university... How do you do 'catholic' maths, or 'catholic' chemistry?


Catholic Maths: 1 plus 1 plus 1 = 1 easy isn't it !
Catholic Chemistry: pour 10 ml of H_20 into a beaker, shake, decant out C_2H_6O. It's a bloody miracle.
Catholic Biology: take one wafer ..

ACU is a pretty third rate university. Part of past governments attempts to expand the university sector. They want more graduates so they just change the names of things that aren't universites to university and the problem is solved. The UK did it with polys. You can see the history here

http://www.acu.edu.au/about_acu/the_university/our_history/

As far as I can tell they don't do any mathematics at all just mathematics education (don't start me)

http://www.acu.edu.au/about_acu/research/our_research/research_centres_-and-_institutes/

That said their VC is a disgrace for the VC of even a third rate university.

Michael


EDIT: Of course there are serious private catholic universities like Notre Dame. I expect ACU don't quite have Notre Dame's endowment fund of $7 billion US. Being catholic really doesn't stop you building a great university but underfunding does. My guess would be Notre Dame don't reach creation science.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:07:00 UTC | #411497

DeepFritz's Avatar Comment 24 by DeepFritz

ACU in their defence actually have some semi-respectable courses, certainly their music and nursing programs are good. Altough ACU is the uni that you apply to when you are down to VUT and ACU (you don't have the grades for Monash, Melbourne, Swinburne, RMIT or Latrobe).


It's interesting to see that they leave proper science alone completely as far as course options are concerned. They know they can't get away with creation science in this country...

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:23:00 UTC | #411503

quisquose's Avatar Comment 25 by quisquose

Greg Craven wrote:

In an average week of atheistic bigotry in the Melbourne media, we can expect to learn that Catholics endorse child molestation, hate all other religions, would re-introduce the crusades and the auto de fe at the slightest opportunity, despise women, wish to persecute homosexuals, greedily divert public moneys for their own religious purposes, subvert public health care, brainwash children, and are masterminding the spread of the cane toad across northern Australia.

Oh come on ... nobody thinks the Catholic Church is responsible for the spread of cane toads across northern Australia ... it's AIDS across Africa you idiot.

:)

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:55:00 UTC | #411541

Crazycharlie's Avatar Comment 26 by Crazycharlie

Excellent article. He makes the point that should be made again and again; that religions, in the western liberal democracies at least, can't silence dissent, or challenges to their dogma like in the past. The only defence they can muster is to cry, "You can't criticize our faith, it's disrespectful."

It's all they have left.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:17:00 UTC | #411548

mmurray's Avatar Comment 27 by mmurray

It's interesting to see that they leave proper science alone completely as far as course options are concerned. They know they can't get away with creation science in this country...


I would expect it is lack of funding. Science is expensive. In my experience catholicism never had much time for creationism. At least not when I went to a Marist Brothers college although that was awhile ago. They would much prefer god guiding evolution or something similar.

Michael

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:18:00 UTC | #411549

Crazycharlie's Avatar Comment 28 by Crazycharlie

The "Don't criticize it's disrespectful" defence is a reaction to criticism, but it's also an attempt to silence criticism. And make no mistake, if ANY of the religions ever regained their former power they would waste no time going back to silencing criticism by killing, torturing and burning at the stake.

Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:39:00 UTC | #411558

Alternative Carpark's Avatar Comment 29 by Alternative Carpark

Who is this Craven fellow?

As far as I'm concerned, the only Craven that was ever worth listening to was Mr. John Craven - erstwhile of 'Newsround'. :)

Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:16:00 UTC | #411566

mmurray's Avatar Comment 30 by mmurray

@quisquose is your avatar genuine or photoshopped?

Funny in either case. You get some strange stuff when people try and make the placards readable for the western press cameras.

Michael

Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:18:00 UTC | #411567