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← CFI Releases Statement from Ibn Warraq in Response to Fort Hood Tragedy

CFI Releases Statement from Ibn Warraq in Response to Fort Hood Tragedy - Comments

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 1 by zeroangel

I was wondering when this was going to end up on the front page. We talked about it on the forums.

/me gets popcorn...

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:16:00 UTC | #413057

glenister_m's Avatar Comment 2 by glenister_m

I'm reminded of a couple of quotes after reading the article. One from "The Prince" in which the Prince is advised that content citizens do not rebel, so if their stomach's are full they are unlikely to revolt.

The second was from a vegetarian poster that basically spelled out that if just the U.S.'s military budget was used to feed the world, that there would be no people starving in the world.

I certainly have no doubt of Islam's influence. My question is how much influence it would have if we could use the world's military budgets to instead ensure that everyone had a roof over their heads and enough food to eat (and of course no longer sell arms to other oountries)?

I know, pipe dreams and idealism. If everyone had enough food, many would probably have more than 2 kids, and the population would rise to the point that we couldn't feed everyone, and we'd be back to wars, etc. What if we focused on Muslim countries?

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:22:00 UTC | #413060

nickthelight's Avatar Comment 3 by nickthelight

Bravo.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:29:00 UTC | #413063

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 4 by zeroangel

glenister_m:

It's a wonderful idea, but I have a feeling the west would then be faced with a bunch of well-fed, strong, committed Jihadists and also be without the benefit of the US military to protect it.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:31:00 UTC | #413064

TIKI AL's Avatar Comment 5 by TIKI AL

If I killed 13 people everytime I was harrassed here in Arizona for being a non godbot, I would make Jack the Ripper look like Mr Rogers.

I agree that most of the talking headlice have been gutless regarding the obvious radical religious link.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:34:00 UTC | #413065

rokeisland's Avatar Comment 6 by rokeisland

Great article.

The second was from a vegetarian poster that basically spelled out that if just the U.S.'s military budget was used to feed the world, that there would be no people starving in the world.


See, there is a problem with that statement. You know the billions in food aid that gets sent to impoverished countries? Plus all those 'feed the children' campaigns? Where does it go?

Yes, I'm sure a lot of it ends up where it is supposed to, but how much of it gets hijacked to feed the very rebel soldiers that are supposed to be protecting the citizens? It's been reliably reported to have happened in Iraq, Somalia, Dafur, Equador, Afgahnistan, etc etc.


Merely sending more food will do nothing. The poeple of the nations need to decide when enough is enough and rise up. Military Help from outside only sometimes is enough to quell the issue, but look where that got us in places like Iraq and Afgahnistan. Food aid from outside does nothing but enrich the dicatators and the little that does make it to the people isn't enough to fully compensate for being unable to grow their own. And I mean fully compensate, which means that the sense of pride in feeding yourself is gone. The ability to get up and know that their will be food on your plate is gone.

Sorry, but the attitude that food aid (a short term cure) can be used to cure a long term problem really gets to me.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:38:00 UTC | #413066

BetaUnit42's Avatar Comment 7 by BetaUnit42

Will people ever wake up? I am so sick of "Political Correctness" when the root cause is blatantly obvious.

This is a good web site for some Islamic insight:
http://www.islam-watch.org/iw-new/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=245:quran-the-primary-manual-of-islamic-suicide-terrorism&catid=79:mirza&Itemid=58

Don't forget about Pat Condell. He has amazing intestinal fortitude as evidenced by the email he receives.
http://www.patcondell.net/

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:47:00 UTC | #413067

Janus's Avatar Comment 8 by Janus

This article is perfect in every way. I urge you all to post it (or a link to it) in every blog and forum you frequent.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:17:00 UTC | #413072

root2squared's Avatar Comment 9 by root2squared

While the role of Islam cannot be discounted, it would be quite naive to say it is the root cause. Because we know people pick and choose whatever suits them. If this psycho had been mentally OK, he would have interpreted Islam in a peaceful, even if intellectually dishonest, way.

This would not have happened if he was not a Muslim, but it also would not have happened if the west was not in the middle east.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:30:00 UTC | #413074

keddaw's Avatar Comment 10 by keddaw

In the UK soldiers pledge alliegance to Queen and country (which I am very much against), but in the US their first oath is to uphold the Constitution. If anything comes before that you should not be serving in the military.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:35:00 UTC | #413075

Janus's Avatar Comment 11 by Janus

While the role of Islam cannot be discounted, it would be quite naive to say it is the root cause. Because we know people pick and choose whatever suits them. If this psycho had been mentally OK, he would have interpreted Islam in a peaceful, even if intellectually dishonest, way.


That's true of some religious believers, but not all of them. A person who has been indoctrinated since birth to believe that the Qur'an is the infallible word of Allah usually will not "pick and choose"; he will 'interpret' the Qur'an in the most plausible way based on that belief.

This would not have happened if he was not a Muslim, but it also would not have happened if the west was not in the middle east.


That's obviously true in the case of this particular act of violence, but Jihadist violence existed long before the West (or anyone else) 'invaded' Muslim lands.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:43:00 UTC | #413077

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 12 by zeroangel

R2S:

While the role of Islam Christianity cannot be discounted, it would be quite naive to say it is the root cause. Because we know people pick and choose whatever suits them. If this psycho had been mentally OK, he would have interpreted Islam Christianity in a peaceful, even if intellectually dishonest, way.

This would not have happened if he was not a Muslim, Christian but it also would not have happened if the west was not in the middle east. people weren't killing fetuses.
Would you say the above is accurate as well? Please note I am not drawing a moral equivalent between the west in the Mid East and abortion. It is enough that in both examples of lunacy the aggressor feels he is justified.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:44:00 UTC | #413078

Rob Schneider's Avatar Comment 13 by Rob Schneider

Root2Squared: I can't quite coin the proper phrase for your argument, but I've seen it a lot of times from others.

It is again letting the religious component off the hook.

we know people pick and choose whatever suits them.


This is not entirely true. People who have been indoctrinated their entire lives are completely unable to SEE the variety of other options available to them, and have had their vision blinkered to focus on simplistic, narrow, faith inspired acts.

If you see yourself as having to tolerate living among the infidel... where does that thought come from?
[edit]If you see the commandment that there is no government separate from Allah as literal, and you are sickened to see Allahs' words disregarded every day... where does that come from?[end edit]
If you see yourself with no friends, because you have been instructed to not hang out with the infidel... where does that come from.
If you are exhorted daily to join the Jihad, by your imam... where is that coming from?
If you truly believe that you may not leave the faith under pain of death, cannot tolerate your current life, and are offered a glorious escape hatch via martyrdom... where does this come from?

If a terrorist wants to attack me over political issues, let him enter the room with a bomb strapped around him and shout, "American foreign policy is destroying my people and the world, and this is your payback." [detonation].

Don't tell me when a person enters a room and shouts "Allahu Akbar" that we have to find ways to think about it that don't include the rightful, root cause: Islamic indoctrination.

And to be fair, we westerners are complicit similarly. Fortunately, OUR terrorists aren't targeting the government and society as a whole. They just enter Kansas churches and gun down abortion doctors.
The same apologists leap up to declare Christianity has nothing to do with the "lone gunman's actions.

Farcical!
[edit] Hark!! Do I hear Sam Harris feverishly typing a polemic? He will more clearly and poignantly express these thoughts than I have, and I'd be willing to bet he's well on his way.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:50:00 UTC | #413079

root2squared's Avatar Comment 14 by root2squared

ZeroAngel

Yes, I think that sounds fair.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:52:00 UTC | #413080

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 15 by zeroangel

R2S:

Well, at least you are consistent. Let's agree to disagree (in both examples).

EDIT: I really think that religion makes the whole thing worse. I honestly believe that were either person an atheist and yet still insane, they might manage to hold off killing people. I don't think I'll convince you though so I'll go back to reading something else.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:54:00 UTC | #413081

root2squared's Avatar Comment 16 by root2squared

That's true of some religious believers, but not all of them. A person who has been indoctrinated since birth to believe that the Qur'an is the infallible word of Allah usually will not "pick and choose"; he will 'interpret' the Qur'an in the most plausible way based on that belief.


I don't agree. It is quite evident to me that people are able to completely ignore parts of their books that they don't need to use.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:58:00 UTC | #413083

root2squared's Avatar Comment 17 by root2squared

BeyondBelief

I am not letting religion off the hook. So I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post.

ZeroAngel

Of course religion makes the whole thing worse. I did say that he wouldn't have done this if he was not a Muslim.

Edit: To clarify what I mean, I disagree that religion is the root cause. I think it's a mix of various factors that leads to such things. Obviously, religion plays a big role in this, but let us not simplify what is complicated.

Edit 2 by 2: I think even the sexual suppression in some Islamic societies plays a role.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:05:00 UTC | #413086

Janus's Avatar Comment 18 by Janus

I don't agree. It is quite evident to me that people are able to completely ignore parts of their books that they don't need to use.


Any Christian fundamentalist who is well-informed about the Bible and Christianity falsifies your claim by counter-example.

Take Albert Mohler, for instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Albert_Mohler,_Jr.
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog/

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:07:00 UTC | #413087

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 19 by zeroangel

R2S:

We just differ one to what degree religion itself is culpable. I maintain it is the root cause. You would probably say that insanity or political differences are the root causes. I would say that religion is what is driving both of those things.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:08:00 UTC | #413088

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 20 by Bonzai

BeyondBelief

This is not entirely true. People who have been indoctrinated their entire lives are completely unable to SEE the variety of other options available to them, and have had their vision blinkered to focus on simplistic, narrow, faith inspired acts.


Then why are some of the worst fanatics happen to be recent converts or were raised in moderate Muslim families?

Do you have evidence to back this up or do you just make it up because it sounds plausible?

I agree with 2 ( edited: and Numbeliever who is also involved with square roots. May be square roots represent root cause?)

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:19:00 UTC | #413090

Mitch Kahle's Avatar Comment 21 by Mitch Kahle

They are truly, and literally, God-intoxicated fanatics.


It's about time! This should be the front-page lead in every newspaper.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:19:00 UTC | #413091

Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 22 by Nunbeliever

Well, although I agree with Ibn Warraq on many things islamic terrorism is a complicated thing.

YES, faith has definately a big part in this. BUT, we have to remember islamic terrorism is quite a new phenomenon.

WHY is it that islamic terrorism has suddenly exploded (literally) in just a few decades? Still the scripture is largely the same. What has changed? I do not pretend to know the full picture. But, it is quite clear that foreign politics and globalization has a lot to do with this. Yes, the terrorists as individuals are without doubt mainly motivated by religious dogma. But, the larger cause, I dare to say, is not mainly due to religious dogma. I'm quite confident to say muslim leaders main motivation are not to fulfill the will of Allah. I think there are more human desires behind their ambitions. As always... The terrorists are in my opinion often victims of ruthless religious leaders who unscrupulously use hate speech and religious dogma to gain political power.

So yes. It is important to fight religious dogma. But it is as important to understand the bigger picture. I get annoyed with the simplistic way some people portray the islamic terrorist problem.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:20:00 UTC | #413092

root2squared's Avatar Comment 23 by root2squared

ZeroAngel
See my edit. I simply disagree there is one root cause.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:22:00 UTC | #413093

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 24 by zeroangel

R2S:

I'm not budging either bud. I propose we settle this with pugil sticks. :)

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:23:00 UTC | #413094

root2squared's Avatar Comment 25 by root2squared

18. Comment #431420 by Janus on November 12, 2009 at 7:07 pm

Is that guy out stoning adulterers and gays to death? If not, then he proves my point.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:28:00 UTC | #413095

crookedshoes's Avatar Comment 26 by crookedshoes

Why can't people keep their religion to themselves? Why is it carried as a badge of honor by a smirking Muslim that this man did this? Case in point ask a vehement pro-lifer about the shooting of the abortion doctor and instead of listening to their words, study their face and body language. This type of exercise is very revealing. After you have done this a few times come back and try to tell me that they aren't "secretly proud" of their murdering faith.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:32:00 UTC | #413096

root2squared's Avatar Comment 27 by root2squared

ZeroAngel

Heh...then you'd win. Maybe pool would be a bit more balanced.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:33:00 UTC | #413097

zeroangel's Avatar Comment 28 by zeroangel

R2S:

Heh...then you'd win. Maybe pool would be a bit more balanced.
With all the time I've spent in bars, I'm not so bad at that either :).

Let's go with deathmatch in GTA4 on the PC. Either that or I'll meet you on the training server of "Battleground Europe."

crookedshoes:
Case in point ask a vehement pro-lifer about the shooting of the abortion doctor and instead of listening to their words, study their face and body language.
I frequent some fairly "right-wing" blogs, I have asked outright probing questions in regard to this. The answer I got from one poster was basically, "I don't condone law-breaking since it won't help my cause, but yes, the abortionists got what they deserved and the shooter could be called a hero." I sh|t you not.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:38:00 UTC | #413099

Janus's Avatar Comment 29 by Janus

nunbliever wrote:

WHY is it that muslim terrorism has suddenly exploded (literally) in just a few decades? Still the scripture is largely the same. What has changed?


Uh, the technology needed for effective terrorism wasn't so easy to obtain for your average radical Muslim until fairly recently.


root2squared wrote:

Is that guy out stoning adulterers and gays to death? If not, then he proves my point.


My point isn't that fundamentalists are capable of magically resolving all the contradictions contained in the Bible or Qur'an, it's that (most of them) try to interpret it in the most plausible way, based on the belief that their holy texts are divinely inspired. The Bible states that Jesus forgave an adulterous woman, and he barely mentions homosexuality.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:44:00 UTC | #413100

root2squared's Avatar Comment 30 by root2squared

29. Comment #431433 by Janus on November 12, 2009 at 7:44 pm

That's what I said. People interpret their books the way the want to. This guy is not stoning anyone because he doesn't want to.

Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:01:00 UTC | #413101