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A plague of atheists has descended, and Catholics are the target - Comments

retep57's Avatar Comment 1 by retep57

Blind mindless creatures heading in endless circles towards an "artificial light" describes moths and catholics (and other religious automatons ) to me.

This article seems to be written upside down, Antibiotics are antidote for plague, rationality cure for religious superstition, for this dufous to call atheists bogon moths takes the biscuit,

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:28:00 UTC | #418193

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 2 by Roland_F

The Sydney Morning Herald seems to be a strange newspaper if these kind of drivel is officially published as an article - and not just as some readers comment.
Greg Craven being himself a member and staunch supporter of the biggest transnational pedophile organization is calling humans who are not sharing his superstition and his membership in one of 33000 Christian denominations an unwelcome plague.

The widespread and systematic torture and rape of children is a disgust for the criminal perpetrators and not for the ones who bringing it to the daylight.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:31:00 UTC | #418194

NewEnglandBob's Avatar Comment 3 by NewEnglandBob

This writer is a breathtaking spewer of hatred and vileness.

There is not a fact in that so-called article. It just oozes slime.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:36:00 UTC | #418195

Inferno's Avatar Comment 4 by Inferno

See the Atheist response article linked at the bottom of the page.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:41:00 UTC | #418197

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 5 by Bonzai

This guy is the Vice Chancellor of a University??!!

What a breathtakingly stupid piece, completely devoid of content. It is basically a long winded way to say 'fuck you!'. And they accuse Dawkins of stridency..

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:42:00 UTC | #418198

andrew.trapp's Avatar Comment 6 by andrew.trapp

Is Greg Craven for real, or just a poe? Can being such a rabid apologist for Catholicism really make a person that mentally deficient?

Of course he is following precisely the Catholic dogma of viciously attacking their detractors while simultaneously painting themselves as the hapless, innocent victims.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:45:00 UTC | #418199

bleonard1401's Avatar Comment 7 by bleonard1401

This must be a crappy newspaper (no references or examples of atheist attacks). You could just as easily find a witless article like this anywhere in the bible belt of America. I could almost see someone like Ted Haggard spewing something this ignorant out of his mouth while being applauded by his congregation. Sigh.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:49:00 UTC | #418200

Inferno's Avatar Comment 8 by Inferno

Worse, they are not traditional atheists.

That's right, we're not going to "grin and bear it" anymore.

you are at least much brighter than all those dumb-asses who believe in a supreme being, such as Sister Perpetua down the road, Thomas Aquinas, Isaac Newton and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. So satisfying.

On the other hand, believers get to think themselves much brighter than Albert Einstein, Richard Dawkins etc. Does this constitute an argument£

The second factor has to do with wit.

Ummmm, are you going to get to any arguments against atheism£

The second wearying thing about the new atheism is that it is not new at all.

Of course "new" atheism is not new. That's because the theists haven't come up with a new argument in about 200 years. Also, notice the sloppy writing. The author referred to what is "new" about these atheists above - it's the strength of their voice, not necessarily the message.

I am not quite clear why our modern crop of atheists hates Christians, as opposed to ignoring or even politely dismissing them, but they very clearly do

And that's the real message here. "Please don't attack me. Just leave me alone." Should we politely dismiss the catholic churches influence on family planning funding in Africa£ Should be politely dismiss the inherent gay hatred in the bible and its direct impact on western secular laws£

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:53:00 UTC | #418201

mirandaceleste's Avatar Comment 9 by mirandaceleste

I think Greg Craven and Bill Donohue would get along splendidly. They could sit around spewing ignorant hate and whining about how Catholics are SO oppressed and are the completely innocent victims of "atheist hate" or whatever. Staggeringly huge and completely unjustified persecution complexes like the one on display here just SLAY me, I swear. So ridiculous.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:55:00 UTC | #418202

Muetze's Avatar Comment 10 by Muetze

In an average week of atheistic bigotry in the Melbourne media, we can expect to learn that Catholics endorse child molestation, hate all other religions, would re-introduce the crusades and the auto de fe at the slightest opportunity, despise women, wish to persecute homosexuals, greedily divert public moneys for their own religious purposes, subvert public health care, brainwash children, and are masterminding the spread of the cane toad across northern Australia.


Uh ... yes. That's actually pretty well to the point. I don't see how you make this less depressing by couching it in sarcasm.

I am tempted to quote Stephen Fry's recent outburst that impressed me so much: "Yes! Yes! Are you getting the message? There is a reason we hammer home these issues; because they matter. They matter to people's hearts and souls."

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:57:00 UTC | #418203

aglnl's Avatar Comment 11 by aglnl

Same online edition also has this article, which is essentially a response to the Greg Craven one:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-new-crybaby-theists-20091105-hyyc.html

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:59:00 UTC | #418204

moniz's Avatar Comment 12 by moniz

"It is not deep perception we encounter here, but a critical failure of imaginative capacity."

Because we don't accept the concept of "Big Daddy" in the sky watching over everything, we lack imaginative capacity?

When Catholics have the imaginative capacity to accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then maybe that argument will stand.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:00:00 UTC | #418205

russkid's Avatar Comment 13 by russkid

Why would anyone get so excited about the misconceptions of third parties as to the existence of a fourth party in which they themselves do not believe?


Because people by and large ( atheist included )
are not comfortable with letting others believe or behave differently then they would like them to.

Quite simply and becomming more obvious every day is that atheism is now a tool being used in the same way that religion has been. It is no longer just a position that there is no god to contrast the religious view that there is one. Both positions concerned with policy, what should be allowed, what should be taught, what should be advertised and what should not be.

The climate change/environmentalism "movement" was hijacked, the same is now happening with atheism.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:05:00 UTC | #418206

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 15 by Bonzai

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:08:00 UTC | #418208

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 14 by SaintStephen

At the bottom, of course, lies hate. I am not quite clear why our modern crop of atheists hates Christians, as opposed to ignoring or even politely dismissing them, but they very clearly do. There is nothing clever, witty or funny about hate.
It's not hate, candyass, it's ridicule. Big, big difference. Religion is funny as hell!

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:08:00 UTC | #418207

zengardener's Avatar Comment 16 by zengardener

This frustrates me. After all this time telling people that "New Atheist" is just something that the theists have dreamed up to make atheism sound like a pop fad that will quickly die out, the theists are starting to say that the "New Atheists" are just the same as all the old atheists, to make it sound like atheists are just trying to repackage last year's Christmass sweater.

I've already heard this double speak twice today!!!

And then to have the nerve to say,

The second wearying thing about the new atheism is that it is not new at all. It is so banally derivative of every piece of hate mail ever sent to God that I am amazed Satan has yet to sue for copyright infringement. No old chestnut is too ripe, rotten or sodden, especially when it comes to the Catholics as accredited suppliers of what apparently is the Christian equivalent of methamphetamine.
.

And yet, the arguments have not been rebuked, the crimes have not been answered for, and they still blithely go about dragging humanity down.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:10:00 UTC | #418209

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 17 by SaintStephen

13. Comment #436651 by russkid on November 30, 2009 at 3:05 am

Quite simply and becomming becoming more obvious every day is that atheism is now a tool being used in the same way that religion has been. It is no longer just a position that there is no god to contrast the religious view that there is one. Both positions [are] concerned with policy, what should be allowed, what should be taught, what should be advertised and what should not be.
Spoiling for a fight, russkid? Why must you always be the antagonist rather than simply asking questions if you are ignorant on something? If atheists don't concern themselves with the manner in which children are being raised, particularly in the free world, the battle for rational materialism is dead and lost. Educating children to think scientifically is priority number one, IMO. Every thinking atheist is rightfully concerned with "what should be taught." Since I know you're not stupid, maybe you can explain yourself better.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:17:00 UTC | #418210

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 18 by mordacious1

What's this? Laurie Fraser is the 8th plague? ROFL

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:20:00 UTC | #418211

Dhamma's Avatar Comment 19 by Dhamma

As always they attack us, and not our arguments. Tiresome, very tiresome. If they at least gave me one GOOD fucking argument for believing in their god, I'd be thankful - but they never come. Absolutely never.

"There is nothing clever, witty or funny about hate." Exclusive to atheists? Tell that to IRA, your christian (by definition friendly) comrades.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:35:00 UTC | #418217

russkid's Avatar Comment 20 by russkid

Spoiling for a fight, russkid? Why must you always be the antagonist rather than simply asking questions if you are ignorant on something? If atheists don't concern themselves with the manner in which children are being raised, particularly in the free world, the battle for rational materialism is dead and lost. Educating children to think scientifically is priority number one, IMO. Every thinking atheist is rightfully concerned with "what should be taught." Since I know you're not stupid, maybe you can explain yourself better.


The education of children to think scientifically or anything else should not be held hostage by people who are concerned with what statues should be allowed or what billboards are acceptable. Your lack of belief in a god should stop there, and not extend into policy ... as long as it does you are standing on the same ground as the religious people that you battle against.

Leave the decisions about how to educate or what rules to make out of the hands of people who are fighting about whether or not there is a god.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:43:00 UTC | #418223

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 21 by SaintStephen

20. Comment #436668 by russkid on November 30, 2009 at 3:43 am

Your lack of belief in a god should stop there, and not extend into policy ... as long as it does you are standing on the same ground as the religious people that you battle against.
No, the burden of proof is on the believers who make extraordinary claims about the world that they cannot back up with evidence.

Atheists are just like non-stamp collectors. Holy Jebus, I refuse to start rehashing all the arguments just to refute a silly statement out of left field. Surely you cannot be seriously challenging the atheist viewpoint on the education of children. If you haven't picked up on that particular debate in the months you've been lurking on this site then I think you're beyond help in this regard.

Please. Equal footing in the classroom debate with theists? Are you fucking serious?

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:59:00 UTC | #418233

Dhamma's Avatar Comment 22 by Dhamma

"A plague of atheists has descended, and Catholics are the target"

It makes me think of Marcus Brigstock's rant about religion where he was sure everyone would think he singled out their particular religion.

I think every theistic religion is pretty much equally silly, even if some stand out a little extra, such as mormonism. We don't single out Catholicism, it's just that since most atheists are westerners it's the religion we are most closely related to. Personally I dislike every religion involved in terrorism, particularly islam. Terrorism is the single reason I don't take religion lightly. If religions were only about singing carols, I'd just laugh a bit and continue walking. This is not the case and therefore it's my duty to attack religion with ridicule and valid arguments for why they're wrong.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:01:00 UTC | #418234

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 23 by Steve Zara

It is not deep perception we encounter here, but a critical failure of imaginative capacity.

A failure of imaginative capacity?

Craven opens his eyes and sees a world designed for him. The creator of a hundred billion visible galaxies sent Jesus to Earth only tens of generations ago so that Craven and his family can forget about mortality. Nearly four billion years of evolution were set up to result in Craven. He projects into the heavens his own image of himself so that when he asks himself questions about right and wrong, he knows for sure that the response from his unconscious is the voice of ultimate truth.

How much more is the imaginative capacity of those who realise that they can't trust even their own thoughts and experiences. Who are humble enough to recognise that a feeling isn't truth, even when that feeling is shared with others.

How magnificent is the imaginative capacity of those who reject the doctrines of religion and realise that, no matter what their own cultural prejudices may be, women should be treated as equals and those who have a different sexual orientation should be allowed to live full lives without oppression.

How much more we should admire those who reject cherry-picked words from an ancient book and the authority of old men in robes and allow technology and science to explore this amazing universe? Where in the tales of Craven's religion are the buzzing of space with gluon fields inside a proton, or the constant supernova blasts of quasars? Where is the messy and wasteful but vital digital chemistry of DNA?

Craven has no idea what imaginative capacity means. His imagination contains nothing but a small stage on which he is the main actor and the God of his ego and imagination has written all the scripts, which are nothing but flattering and comforting stories to pander to his prejudices and calm his fears.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:06:00 UTC | #418235

The Truth, the light's Avatar Comment 24 by The Truth, the light

There's a nice follow up article that puts the whining Greg in his place.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-new-crybaby-theists-20091105-hyyc.html

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:09:00 UTC | #418239

russkid's Avatar Comment 25 by russkid

Surely you cannot be seriously challenging the atheist viewpoint on the education of children.


In fact, I am .. as much as I am challenging anyone who would decide what to teach based on their view that there is or is not a god.

Please. Equal footing in the classroom debate with theists? Are you fucking serious?


Its worse than you think .. you should have no footing at all and neither should they.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:12:00 UTC | #418242

Dhamma's Avatar Comment 26 by Dhamma

The Truth, the light,

Thanks, that was an absolutely superb response. Crybaby theists should certainly be the name for the "new theists".

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:18:00 UTC | #418249

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 27 by SaintStephen

25. Comment #436687 by russkid on November 30, 2009 at 4:12 am

I think that color is what you're smoking. I refuse to bite on this one. Take it up with Dawkins. Seriously. Just post your next one directly to him. It's currently 4:17am GMT. By my calculations, Richard should be up in two hours or less. I'll show you how to highlight the text in bold red and some crazy font if you really want to stand out. I'm pretty sure he'll read it. Can't say whether he'll respond, of course. It would be an interesting experiment. I assert you couldn't frame your question in a manner interesting enough to compel him to respond. He would be well within his rights to simply tell you to "Read my books."

I'm here to help you, though.

I'm always spoiling for an interaction with one of the smartest people on the planet.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:21:00 UTC | #418251

Dave Porter's Avatar Comment 28 by Dave Porter

At the end of WWII and the fall of Hitler (a Catholic) we had many war trials for crimes against humanity. Stolen paintings and wealth were at least partially returned to the countries they were taken from.

The catholic church is as, or more guilty as, the Nazi party when it come to crimes against humanity. Why is there not a larger call for the return of the stolen loot by the papacy? If the tons (literally) of gold were returned to Mexico and other countries and used to prop up the peso & other monies, we wouldn't have the immigration problem we do in the U.S. Heck, we would probably be going the other way. The untold worldwide destruction done in the last 500 years by the catholic church needs to be accounted for. When will the world get the justice it deserves????

We as Atheists do have the right to ridicule the catholics. And we need to demand justice.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:32:00 UTC | #418256

russkid's Avatar Comment 29 by russkid

I think that color is what you're smoking. I refuse to bite on this one. Take it up with Dawkins. Seriously. Just post your next one directly to him. It's currently 4:17am GMT. By my calculations, Richard should be up in two hours or less. I'll show you how to highlight the text in bold red and some crazy font if you want to really stand out. I'm pretty sure he'll read it. Can't say whether he'll respond, of course. It would be an interesting experiment. I assert you couldn't frame your question in a manner interesting enough to compel him to respond. He would be well within his rights to simply tell you to "Read my books."


I would love to .. and I am sure he would agree that his atheism has no buisness in the classroom or government any more than someone elses theism.
A god or absence of one should not be a relevent topic.

Actually hold on, I take some of that back. Only because of the money he stands to make off of book sales and personal appreances ( incidentally I have read the God Delusion ) it might be in his best intrest to keep the topic relevant whenever possible.

Let me posit this ... I bet , and not by % but by actual amount, that I could find more christians who are not opposed to abortion than I could atheists who are opposed to it. That "non-stamp collector" bs is weak. The atheist non-belief defines how its collective would like to shape society as much as the theists belief ... which makes either a threat when it comes to deciding on policy that affects everyone.

In short, I dont think you can keep separate your non belief from the decisions that you make or would like to make for others any more than the theist can seperate his belief from the same thing. I dont say this as a criticism mind you, just that apart from the disagreement on the existence of god you are no different from the theist with regards to the desire to dictate to others what they should do.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:39:00 UTC | #418258

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 30 by Bonzai

A god or absence of one should not be a relevent topic.


Exactly, that would be practically an atheistic position. A-theist, means no-god, no god in classroom and business, not even the mentioning of the absence of god. This is how it should be.

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:53:00 UTC | #418260