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Bringing the Vatican to Justice - Comments

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 1 by rod-the-farmer

Someone with expertise in the area should investigate the possible use of RICO against the church.  That should get their attention.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

 

In fact, if you read down the Wiki link, it HAS been applied against the church over this exact business of sexual abuse of children.

Updated: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:39:07 UTC | #468851

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 2 by Tyler Durden

The Catholic Church has spent two millennia demonizing human sexuality to a degree unmatched by any other institution, declaring the most basic, healthy, mature, and consensual behaviors taboo. Indeed, this organization still opposes the use of contraception, preferring, instead, that the poorest people on earth be blessed with the largest families and the shortest lives.

The archbishop of Dublin also seems quite critical of the current state of the RCC:

As he put it, “there are still strong forces which would prefer that the truth did not emerge”. There was “subconscious denial on the part of many” and “other signs of rejection of a sense of responsibility for what had happened”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0511/1224270129996.html

Strong, and brave words, from Diarmuid Martin who does not seem to see eye-to-eye with Joey Ratz!

Tue, 11 May 2010 12:42:24 UTC | #468856

GregPhillips's Avatar Comment 3 by GregPhillips

Great review article, and if Sam is on the case as well I expect an... entertaining summer :)

 

I have regarded the 2500 pages of the CICA report on the Irish Church Abuses as material evidence of the non-existence of God for a while, but the extracts quoted by Sam are horrific (and obviously they are just the tip of the international iceberg).

 

How long can this wicked excuse for a peadophile club be allowed to stand in a civilised world? What about similar abuses in other religeous organisations?

 

 

Tue, 11 May 2010 15:10:59 UTC | #468902

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 4 by robotaholic

This was awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tue, 11 May 2010 15:40:27 UTC | #468906

cheesedoff17's Avatar Comment 5 by cheesedoff17

So pleased that Sam is joining the team. I hope this will snowball.

Tue, 11 May 2010 16:37:25 UTC | #468929

DefenderOfReason!'s Avatar Comment 6 by DefenderOfReason!

Bravo Mr. Harris.  Bravo.

Tue, 11 May 2010 17:06:54 UTC | #468933

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 7 by Dr. Strangegod

"Here, in this ghoulish machinery set to whirling through the ages by the opposing winds of shame and sadism, we mortals can finally glimpse how strangely perfect are the ways of the Lord."

Poerty, Sam.

Tue, 11 May 2010 17:46:13 UTC | #468941

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 8 by Dr. Strangegod

"Poetry." Ahem.

Tue, 11 May 2010 17:46:39 UTC | #468942

Raiko's Avatar Comment 9 by Raiko

I am glad Sam Harris is joining the cause. I have never looked into the CICA report, but that glimpse of it is sickening enough already.

It must be terrifying to a child to listen to their friends screaming in fear and agony - especially knowing it could happen to them.

Why is this not even more public? Everyone should be so outraged. I really don't get how people can turn a blind eye to this.

Updated: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:56:07 UTC | #468943

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 10 by Dr. Strangegod

Tyler - How did you do that blockquoting? I can't do that or edit my posts at all. Thus three in a row.

Tue, 11 May 2010 17:55:39 UTC | #468944

Raiko's Avatar Comment 11 by Raiko

Comment 10 by Lucas
Tyler - How did you do that blockquoting? I can't do that or edit my posts at all. Thus three in a row.
It's the "-sign on top of the comment window. Mark your quote and then hit it. But make sure to leave a paragraph beneath that you can jump to to write outside of the blockquote-box.

Tue, 11 May 2010 17:57:33 UTC | #468945

Dr. Strangegod's Avatar Comment 12 by Dr. Strangegod

No such " sign anywhere near the comment box. Just an empty box and a button that says "create comment."

Tue, 11 May 2010 18:02:25 UTC | #468948

besleybean's Avatar Comment 13 by besleybean

There's a bar across the top of the box and it has  " button...not that I would ever use such a thing!

Tue, 11 May 2010 18:07:59 UTC | #468954

ergaster's Avatar Comment 14 by ergaster

Just love the way he starts off: I confess...
Another clear-thinking piece from Sam.

Tue, 11 May 2010 18:52:54 UTC | #468963

Mr DArcy's Avatar Comment 15 by Mr DArcy

The Catholic Church has spent two millennia demonizing human sexuality to a degree unmatched by any other institution, declaring the most basic, healthy, mature, and consensual behaviors taboo.

 

That about sums up the bully boy mentality of the RCC. "we've got you by the short and curlies, now do what WE say or else...."  They take a healthy, necessary biological urge and demonise it, except for reproduction of new Catholics. "Go forth and multiply" is about the last advice the world's population needs now.

Updated: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:13:33 UTC | #468974

ergaster's Avatar Comment 16 by ergaster

Six hours in and 13 comments... Why have all the regulars stopped posting?

Tue, 11 May 2010 22:02:26 UTC | #469002

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 17 by Tyler Durden

Six hours in and 13 comments... Why have all the regulars stopped posting?

@ergaster -

Have you seen the complete mess the Admins/"developers" have made of the site? 

 

 

Updated: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:28:55 UTC | #469019

Net's Avatar Comment 18 by Net

 

 

Just love the way he starts off: I confess...

 

 

Yes, I noticed that, too.  Do you think it deliberate?  I hope so!

Tue, 11 May 2010 23:46:45 UTC | #469023

Net's Avatar Comment 19 by Net

The Vatican Rag

 

Sorry if anybody has already posted this but I can't listen to Tom Lehrer's comments on church reform through the "Vatican Rag" enough.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKWI41G8h_A

Tue, 11 May 2010 23:51:54 UTC | #469026

keithapm's Avatar Comment 20 by keithapm

7.232 Witnesses reported being particularly fearful at night as they listened to residents screaming in cloakrooms, dormitories or in a staff member's bedroom while they were being abused. Witnesses were conscious that co-residents whom they described as orphans had a particularly difficult time:

 

The orphan children, they had it bad. I knew ...(who they were)... by the size of them, I'd ask them and they'd say they come from ...named institution.... They were there from an early age. You'd hear the screams from the room where Br ...X... would be abusing them.


There was one night, I wasn't long there and I seen one of the Brothers on the bed with one of the young boys ... and I heard the young lad screaming crying and Br ...X... said to me "if you don't mind your own business you'll get the same". ... I heard kids screaming and you know they are getting abused and that's a nightmare in anybody's mind. You are going to try and break out. ... So there was no way I was going to let that happen to me.... I remember one boy and he was bleeding from the back passage and I made up my mind, there was no way it ...(anal rape)... was going to happen to me. ... That used to play on my mind.

Reads like a horror story... I feel sick to my stomach. I have the report downloaded on to my computer but I'm too terrified to read it. Horror has always been my favourite literary genre... but I don't think I can stomach this... even this paragraph reeks of the purest, rawest evil... I'm gagging on it... and the thought that it could be true, even before you allow yourself accept it's actual veracity, makes it even worse. And just think, whose to say it didn't go on for centuries as opposed to decades? To think of the Thousands of children... if almost comparable to the Holocaust, except the organization responsible in this case is still going strong and has not be relegated to some obscure right-wing fascist groups... Children are still placed in it's "care".

 

Tell me, someone, in ALL honesty how anyone, especially a Catholic, could continue to believe in a benevolent God after this? How could an all loving, all caring God allow innocent children to suffer in that way?

 

I can't think of a politer way of putting this, but you could only be seriously fucking deluded to swallow the shit they've been force feeding us from the cradle and to convince yourself not only that the stinking gunk is medicinal, but that you're ill enough to need it.

Tue, 11 May 2010 23:54:17 UTC | #469027

reckoner's Avatar Comment 21 by reckoner

Comment 17 by Tyler Durden
Six hours in and 13 comments... Why have all the regulars stopped posting? @ergaster - Have you seen the complete mess the Admins/"developers" have made of the site?     

agreed.  I can't see myself posting or reading here too much longer.  This place hurts my brain and eyes.  what happened to the classic forum?  I think Dawkins told Josh that he'd like to see 'something like P.Z.'s blog'

 

fail

Wed, 12 May 2010 01:14:51 UTC | #469043

bethe123's Avatar Comment 22 by bethe123

I see the admins/developers are taking flak over the new site.

Personally, I don't have anything against the new format, but in any event my opinion is irrelevant as it is not my site...But in general terms, if the developers delivered on the specs they were given, that is in fact the criteria they should be judged on. As far as anyone knows, they successfully did that.

In any event, the quality of a forum site is not determined solely by the web design as it is by the quality of the contributions of its members and also the freedom the posters are allowed by the admins to post, even if they post opinions in opposition to RD. Reason and science rely on a vigorous debate and that should be allowed in the forums, and as far as I can tell, it is. I have been to sites where if you had a "different view", your post would simply not get posted.

Regarding commenting on the Harris article-- I am a little Harrised out right now due to his (in my opinion) crazy ideas on science and morality.

Updated: Wed, 12 May 2010 04:13:04 UTC | #469090

GoodbyeGodNZ's Avatar Comment 23 by GoodbyeGodNZ

This article by Sam is so good it should go viral. Copy it and email it to all and sundry with a message to send it on.

Wed, 12 May 2010 05:51:59 UTC | #469104

Raiko's Avatar Comment 24 by Raiko

I am not surprised, ergaster. I can't see myself enjoying posting here much longer, either. Random formatting, no access from my cellphone, the magical toolbar that appears and disappears, the unstructured white - and I'd rather not use gravatar on here, either. I don't care who made the concept - developers or anyone else - it's not working well, and now I wished I had protested when the changes were announced, instead of trusting that things would turn out okay.

Wed, 12 May 2010 07:46:25 UTC | #469140

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 25 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Wed, 12 May 2010 14:36:59 UTC | #469224

Firkraag's Avatar Comment 26 by Firkraag

This article has caused me to totally revise my assessment of the Catholic Church. I did not realize that the evil perpetrated by Catholic priests (and covered up by the Vatican at every level) runs nearly so deep. The testimony of the victims of child abuse, highlighted by Harris, is absolutely chilling.

I regret that I have previously tried to apologize for the Catholic Church, and from now on I will support (in what little way I can) the quest to bring them to justice.

Wed, 12 May 2010 14:51:37 UTC | #469230

MikeWazowski's Avatar Comment 27 by MikeWazowski

Comment 25 by divermike

I dont know the numbers on sexual abuse but i would be willing to bet money the number of school teachers committing abuse is the same if not higher than that for priests, and that in the world as a whole abuse is higher per percent of population of the general public compared to the same number of priests.

Once again, divermike, you're using the ignorant argument that most sick/twisted apologists for the RCC do: "everyone else is doing it so, really, we're not that bad"

You sir, are a defender of paedophiles, and should be ashamed of yourself!

No other organisation puts itself on a pedestal as the "moral guardians" of society, with a alleged hotline to a god, telling others what they can and cannot do with their bodies, sex lives; on issues of homosexuality, masturbation, or birth control; and where men can put their penises, all the while priests are raping young boys and girls, and the RCC covered it up, and moved priests from parish-to-parish so they could abuse again, and again...

Or have you not read the Murphy Commission report? What's that? You couldn't be bothered, I see, too tough to read was it?

http://www.coroner.ie/en/JELR/Part%201.pdf/Files/Part%201.pdf

That is the difference between the RCC and your pathetic, ignorant little analogy with "school teachers". For shame!

Updated: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:12:26 UTC | #469233

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 28 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Wed, 12 May 2010 15:31:51 UTC | #469240

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 29 by Bonzai

OT alert.

What I find rather annoying with the new site is that things seem to scatter all over.

To make it worse the headings are misleading. A  lot of the discussions are happening apparently under the heading "Archive" while one would think that "Archive" means old and dead threads. Meanwhile there aren't many people posting under "Discuss", which I thought to mean areas where active discussions are happening.

It would be nice to have a feature like "recent discussions" in the old front page where we can keep track of active threads.

Oh, the white space sucks too.

Wed, 12 May 2010 15:37:42 UTC | #469245

Bonzai's Avatar Comment 30 by Bonzai

Comment 12 by Lucas
No such " sign anywhere near the comment box. Just an empty box and a button that says "create comment."

The quote button is not at the comment box. It is at the bottom of the post you want to quote from.

Scroll to the post which contains the text you want to quote, highlight it with your mouse, then click on the button "quote" at the bottom of the post (which can be very far from the comment box!) and a gray box with the quoted texts inside will appear in the comment box.   You can then comment on it by typing outside the gray box (in the comment box of course)

Wed, 12 May 2010 15:46:08 UTC | #469247