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← It is not part of anyone’s culture to be abused

It is not part of anyone’s culture to be abused - Comments

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 1 by Stafford Gordon

Barbarism.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:30:00 UTC | #424252

ridelo's Avatar Comment 2 by ridelo

Multibarbarism?

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:38:00 UTC | #424253

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 3 by MarkOnTheRiver

The lack of outrage, or even appropriate action, these disgusting crimes elicit from the powers that be, all in the name of "community cohesion", i.e. kissing islam's arse, fills me with revulsion.

How many more young women and men are going to be murdered or mutilated "in god's name" before the law is actually applied, blindly as it should be, and with no deference to the caprices of various sky fairies.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:44:00 UTC | #424254

tieInterceptor's Avatar Comment 4 by tieInterceptor

great article, very sad state of affairs.

I heard a few times the reasoning that, some Muslims or sometimes 2nd generation Muslims in the west seem to turn more devout/radical than the previous generation because our society doesn't have a sense of pride in our values and a strict frame of conduct to full fill their needs for structure.

Maybe is time we became unashamedly "fanatic" about equality and human rights, and insult and ostracise anyone that doesn't agree... If they need some structure, we should beat them over the head with the human rights charter.

and yeah, close all faith schools... they are a crazy concept and a clear ticking bomb

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:46:00 UTC | #424255

Ian's Avatar Comment 5 by Ian

They shouldn't be allowed to call this honour killing. There's nothing about honour that demands murder, quite the opposite.

This is reputation murder.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:10:00 UTC | #424262

Jos Gibbons's Avatar Comment 6 by Jos Gibbons

The population of Cleveland is five to six hundred thousand, of which fifteen to eighteen thousand are the right ethnic, religious etc. background to be the source of said 300 calls, assuming the 3 % statistic is correct. This means the number of calls per 1,000 such "minorities" is up to 20, certainly in the high teens. Let's call it 20 to simplify the numbers. 20 in 1,000? 1 in 50? That's pretty scary. (The other extreme interpretation of the numbers, 1 in 60, is scarecely less shameful.) It is bad not just because you would hope for very low proportions of any ethnic group being responsible for forced marriages, but also because, with something like 2 million Muslims in the UK (not quite, but let's say the exact number of people of all relevant persuasions is 2 million, again for simple numbers), the number of phone calls the police could expect from a nationwide effort in a similar time period (how long DID these 300 calls take to attract, I wonder?) would be 40,000. Even if that time period is the full 2 years, 20,000 cases per year (round it down by a factor of 1.2 if you think Cleveland has 600 people and/or a factor of 1.25 if you think there are only 1.6 rather than 2 million relevant people in Britain; even both corrections gives about 13,000) is enough to warrant some sort of police action. We have approximately (perhaps fewer than) 1,000 murders per annum in the UK. One wonders how many of those 1,000 come out of the source Sanghera highlights; or, if we're failing to include them, how high the real figure goes. In any case, murder is far less common than forced marriage and its associated crimes. Why aren't we doing something here?

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:17:00 UTC | #424265

Net's Avatar Comment 7 by Net

unless their job is to help people integrate into a host culture, diversity officers be buggered. what counts is the law and customs of the land, and this should not be hampered by bleeding heart do-gooders or the abuse of pc.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:29:00 UTC | #424267

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 8 by Roland_F

Is there anywhere "Muslim" mentioned in the article £

The "Asian populations in Britain" are most likely Indian Hindus !!

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:41:00 UTC | #424272

tieInterceptor's Avatar Comment 9 by tieInterceptor

Roland_F; Is there anywhere "Muslim" mentioned in the article £

The "Asian populations in Britain" are most likely Indian Hindus !!


you can check it on the news, she wanted to marry another muslim, but the wrong kind of muslim according to the father.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:54:00 UTC | #424275

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 10 by Roland_F

And also for the males it is an arranged marriage, when talking some years ago with Indian colleagues they simply stated they do not need to choose themselves, no need for love according to “I am not perfect, my wife is not perfect – so we have to arrange at least my parents are happy” .

The brides parents and the grooms parents negotiate the marriage, then an astrologer is consulted and then the children are accepting the arranged marriage e.g. the chosen partners from their parents.
The bride is mainly chosen from the grooms parents to their own likings, as the bride will life with the grooms parents in the same house, and the husband is anyway most of the time working long hours or completely abroad for weeks.

Last month an Indian colleague working for an international company , currently on assignment here in Northern Europe, could finally marry with age 31 (whatever wife his parents had chosen for him) after he had to wait 10 years or so until both his younger sisters were married first.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:54:00 UTC | #424276

Roland_F's Avatar Comment 11 by Roland_F

you can check it on the news, she wanted to marry another muslim, but the wrong kind of muslim according to the father.

Well both religions Hinduism and Islam seem to like arranged marriages and expensive dowries...

But as the dowry payment is received from the girls parents it were indeed Muslims, as Hindu custom is more to pay dowry to get rid of the girl.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:58:00 UTC | #424277

keddaw's Avatar Comment 12 by keddaw

A lot of people coming to our shores do not integrate, they enter into a sub-section of our society, a microcosm of the society they left. Thus the values our country has are not sufficiently passed on and they think that whatever was acceptable where they came from is acceptable here. The amount of time it took for the mother to come forward shows this.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:01:00 UTC | #424278

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 13 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment #442849 by Roland_F on December 18, 2009 at 11:58 am

you can check it on the news, she wanted to marry another muslim, but the wrong kind of muslim according to the father.

Well both religions Hinduism and Islam seem to like arranged marriages and expensive dowries... (one pay for girls other receive for girls however)


They do indeed, but adherents of the religion of peace seem much keener to murder their children / siblings, when the child (as child it often is), feels that perhaps they'd like some say in identity of their future bride / groom.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:09:00 UTC | #424281

Vaal's Avatar Comment 14 by Vaal

The man should be hanged, as the worthless wretch he is.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:16:00 UTC | #424283

hungarianelephant's Avatar Comment 15 by hungarianelephant

I absolutely agree with Jasvinder Singhera.

Though there's some reason for optimism. It took 10 years to report Tulay Goren's death, but after that was done the authorities did actually get on with it and prosecute for murder. Would this have happened 5 years ago? Not sure. There have been a few of these prosecutions recently. Hopefully they are a sign of a broader change in culture, towards proper equal protection under our laws.

It would be nice to see the govt being a bit more strident about it, though.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:42:00 UTC | #424285

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 16 by Stafford Gordon

Never mind the "Barbarians being at the gate" they're inside the Citadel.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:48:00 UTC | #424287

CraigB's Avatar Comment 17 by CraigB

I think there's a mistake in the title.

It should read "It shouldn't be a part of anyone’s culture to be abused"

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:00:00 UTC | #424291

Logicel's Avatar Comment 18 by Logicel

hungarianelephant: It would be nice to see the govt being a bit more strident about it, though.
___

Laws that are not enforced become meaningless. The danger is that a culture can lose its freedoms and the interlopers can become more entrenched if sloppiness/negligence reigns with law enforcement. It is fine and good not to regard all Muslims as scapegoats for the truly criminal ones, but such an attitude is useless if laws are not duly implemented.

Feminist organizations have completely opted out of this present crisis. They were instrumental in changing the reality in which I grew up in the fifties and sixties--domestic violence aided and abetted by the police--but are absent on the job at present. Individual feminists are battling this present danger instead.

Feminist organizations can be given some slack when they say they can only fight in their backyards (for example they are useless in terms of grass roots organization in Arabic countries), but when the abuse is in your backyard, then you can't be considered to be much more than a bunch of hypocritical, blinkered, status-quo-supporting farters of hot air.

Some good comments at the original article.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:19:00 UTC | #424294

Dave Porter's Avatar Comment 19 by Dave Porter

Several years ago I had a 9th grade student kidnapped after school by her dad to be forced into a prearranged marriage. She was a great kid, decent grades, and a promising future. I met her brother later on and he told me she had managed to "escape" about 6 months later. She had been beaten and raped repeatedly for the entire time she was in the forced marriage. Needless to say, it totally destroyed her. She never came back to school. Sad.

Maybe a new slogan for the bus campaign should be: "Religion is a F****n' Disease!"

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:49:00 UTC | #424299

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 20 by rod-the-farmer

As for the father, perhaps he should be stoned. Would there be enough men or women who would volunteer to be among those to cast the first one ?

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:56:00 UTC | #424302

hungarianelephant's Avatar Comment 21 by hungarianelephant

18. Comment #442866 by Logicel

Laws that are not enforced become meaningless. The danger is that a culture can lose its freedoms and the interlopers can become more entrenched if sloppiness/negligence reigns with law enforcement. It is fine and good not to regard all Muslims as scapegoats for the truly criminal ones, but such an attitude is useless if laws are not duly implemented.

I could not agree more.

I was trying to make a point about the government's public pronouncements, which tend to be rather lacking. I would like to hear more along the lines of what you are saying. As well as action, not instead of it. As to the action, I'm hopeful that this case is another small step in the right direction.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:17:00 UTC | #424305

evotruth's Avatar Comment 22 by evotruth

As for the father, perhaps he should be stoned. Would there be enough men or women who would volunteer to be among those to cast the first one ?




I'll go first!

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:36:00 UTC | #424308

Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 23 by Nunbeliever

I almost wish there was a hell reserved for people like Mehmet Goren. Well, the relativists say this has nothing to do with religion. Then, exactly WHY is it that we are not even suprised anymore to hear about muslims doing these kind of atrocities, when it would be unthinkable in almost any other context?

I don't say that islam in principle is any worse than the other abrahamitic religions. The problem is of course that islam has not been watered down by secularity. As long as I don't see an honest well mobilized muslim countermovement striving for a moderate and modern version of islam, I refuse to acknowledge islam as a religion of peace. I could not care less about what the relativists say. One cannot distinguise a religion from it's practicians.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:39:00 UTC | #424309

DeusExNihilum's Avatar Comment 24 by DeusExNihilum

Its a pity that some of the most "Recommended" Comments on the site were just as equally barbaric, such as one individuals call for "An eye for an eye" and that they should receive the death penalty.

Its so easy, it seems, for humans to become monsters when they're fighting monsters.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:03:00 UTC | #424315

evotruth's Avatar Comment 25 by evotruth

Comment #442887 by DeusExNihilum

Imagine your brother inlaw killing your sister... How would you react?

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:13:00 UTC | #424317

Vaal's Avatar Comment 26 by Vaal

24. Comment #442887 by DeusExNihilum

I used to think the same as you, that the death penalty was barbaric, but I have changed my mind.

There seems to be no detterent for the most appalling acts, by people who murder for fun, who laugh in the face of their victims. I would have no problem seeing some of these monsters swing, such as this evil bastard for murdering his own daughter, for people who chop off the arms of children in the name of their faith, flinging acid in the faces of girls etc etc. The world would be a lot better off without these monsters, who know full well what they are doing, and a rope is a lot cheaper than putting these worthless scum in prison for life, when they have no respect for life at all, other than their own. So, yes, I am not sentimental about it at all anymore, and will happily vote for the law to be changed.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:23:00 UTC | #424321

Chrysippus_Maximus's Avatar Comment 27 by Chrysippus_Maximus

Vaal, it's not a deterrent. You're just emotional.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:32:00 UTC | #424323

King of NH's Avatar Comment 28 by King of NH

Or is it because authorities there are failing to use the powers for fear of creating offence?


Really? Because I am offended that 2,500 girls, supposedly protected by a civil nation ruled by law, have been sold for rape.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:33:00 UTC | #424324

King of NH's Avatar Comment 29 by King of NH

Vaal...

There is a fine line between justice and vengeance. We have built justice to prevent revenge. I want to personally beat this father to a bloody (both British and dictionary definition) heap. So to protect my own morality and sanity, I would prefer to leave it to courts and prisons.

This is a British crime, but there was an American philosopher of some sort, I can't remember who, that said (paraphrasing) of Western justice, "It is better that a thousand criminals run free than one innocent man should be unfairly punished." It is better that we are just, civil, and humane toward the even very worst of criminals then we should give in to vengeance.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:44:00 UTC | #424327

Synaptix's Avatar Comment 30 by Synaptix

Executions might make some of us feel better but in the long run death is an easy out for these barbarians. I think that rotting the rest of their lives away in jails surrounded by familiar scum is a much better way to make them suffer. In my opinion the rights of liberty come with a responsibility to be a good citizen. When a person forfeits that responsibility they should loose their rights in equal measure to the severity of the crime. In the case of murdering your own daughter the state should remove you from society and make the rest of your life a reflection of your worth to society. Which is near worthless in the case of these honor killing rejects.

Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:02:00 UTC | #424336