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The Terrifying Brilliance of Islam - Comments

ergaster's Avatar Comment 1 by ergaster

Back in the olden days articles like these were never posted on RD.net.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:27:10 UTC | #483606

MickeyDroy's Avatar Comment 2 by MickeyDroy

Shocking choice of article.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:31:37 UTC | #483608

Dean Buchanan's Avatar Comment 3 by Dean Buchanan

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans?

millions? source please.

Also, the website is full of unsupported assertions with no links to outside sources that I could find in a short examination. I don't trust the information.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:31:59 UTC | #483609

-TheCodeCrack-'s Avatar Comment 4 by -TheCodeCrack-

Comment 3 by -ID62- :

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans? millions? source please.

Also, the website is full of unsupported assertions with no links to outside sources that I could find in a short examination. I don't trust the information.

Of course it would be millions. No need to source the bleeding obvious. Even in England, a large chunk of them supported the London bombers. It would easily get into the millions in the Islamic world.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:36:44 UTC | #483613

beeline's Avatar Comment 5 by beeline

Some of the generalisations are weak and unsupported, but as an explanation of why a particular hard-line religion works, by analysing its practical and psychological mechanisms, as laid out in its doctrine, it's very clear. And, I suspect, very accurate.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:39:44 UTC | #483616

Zurak's Avatar Comment 6 by Zurak

Comment 3 by -ID62- :

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans? millions? source please.

Also, the website is full of unsupported assertions with no links to outside sources that I could find in a short examination. I don't trust the information.

Which one of these claims is unsupported? there are some 1.3-1.6 billions muslims. It's obvious there millions who would want to kill you. Some things are just so obvious a source is not needed.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:40:40 UTC | #483617

alexandersafir's Avatar Comment 7 by alexandersafir

"Citizen Warrior", I am afraid you lost me at your gross generalization in the very first sentence:

Have you ever wondered why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans?

I have a question for you: Have you ever wondered why people think anti-religionists are hysterical conspiracy nuts pandering to the like-minded? Please re-read your first sentence.

Now you know.

It is not necessary to engage in sophomoric hyperbole for effect! Simple facts speak for themselves. Fundamental Muslim doctrine, like the fundamental doctrine of all other monotheistic religions, makes requirements of its adherents. These requirements relate to control, obedience, punishment; they are communicated using rhetoric of retribution, threat, violence and they dovetail with deep, cultural references.

Making General Statements of an Entire Population

By overstating or generalizing the numbers you have, if inadvertently, weakened your argument and turned innocent people (who happen to be Muslim) into targets. There actually exists Muslims who believe in peace despite the violence they cannot seem to see within Qur'an, just as there are Christian men and women who believe in human decency and are are unable to see the abjection contained within their holy books.

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:47:02 UTC | #483618

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 8 by alaskansee

@ alexandersafir

I'm afraid I have to agree with TheCodeCrack, Zurack and of course Hitchens. The MASSIVE survey done in 11 muslim countries over a year ago should have left no-one in doubt.

The Catholics think we're not worth a shit and are going to hell too but they'll wait until we die of AIDS or other natural causes.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:51:23 UTC | #483620

Axulus's Avatar Comment 9 by Axulus

For those who are bashing the article, it is obviously written with a certain bias. However, the article contains what appears to me to be a very interesting analysis of several things contained within the doctrine of Islam that makes it so successful as a religion. It is a very provocative article. Do we only accept research articles that are written by university professors with proper footnotes? This article is a good conversation starter in that it brings up several interesting ideas that likely warrant further research.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:00:24 UTC | #483624

LetsHaveAnAdventure's Avatar Comment 10 by LetsHaveAnAdventure

Simply saying "millions" need not imply a generalization of any kind. There are approximately 1.57 billion Muslims in the world. The phrase "millions" is far from precise, but one needs at least 2 million units for it to be accurate. Therefore, a statement like "Millions of Muslim men are dedicated to X" is true if 1 in 785 Muslim men is dedicated to X. That's about 0.127%

Now, while I can't testify to the specifics of the claim, namely, the desire of this percentage of Muslim men to kill "millions of Americans", I think a quick look at any data whatsoever indicates that it is, in all likelihood, true.

For example, in 2002, the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press published a so called "Global Attitudes Project". One of the questions asked to over 38,000 Muslims was "Is suicide bombing in defense of Islam ever justifiable?" Sam Harris has an analysis of this in The End of Faith, in Chapter 4.

The numbers show answers, from largely Muslim countries, in the affirmative with percents ranging from 82% (Lebanon) to 20% (Turkey). I submit that one is not "Making General Statements of An Entire Population" in stating that millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans, since that need imply only 0.127% of support of such an idea. Any corrections to this line of argument are welcome.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:02:45 UTC | #483625

Chrysippus_Maximus's Avatar Comment 11 by Chrysippus_Maximus

Yeah but being "provocative" doesn't excuse being mind-numbingly STUPID.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:03:00 UTC | #483626

Bigger Al's Avatar Comment 12 by Bigger Al

Comment 7 by alexandersafir :

"Citizen Warrior", I am afraid you lost me at your gross generalization in the very first sentence:

Have you ever wondered why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans?

I have a question for you: Have you ever wondered why people think anti-religionists are hysterical conspiracy nuts pandering to the like-minded? Please re-read your first sentence.

Now you know.

It is not necessary to engage in sophomoric hyperbole for effect! Simple facts speak for themselves. Fundamental Muslim doctrine, like the fundamental doctrine of all other monotheistic religions, makes requirements of its adherents. These requirements relate to control, obedience, punishment; they are communicated using rhetoric of retribution, threat, violence and they dovetail with deep, cultural references.

Making General Statements of an Entire Population

By overstating or generalizing the numbers you have, if inadvertently, weakened your argument and turned innocent people (who happen to be Muslim) into targets. There actually exists Muslims who believe in peace despite the violence they cannot seem to see within Qur'an, just as there are Christian men and women who believe in human decency and are are unable to see the abjection contained within their holy books.

All religions set forth beliefs that say I am going to hell. Islam sets forth a belief that Muslims are to send me there. The surveys confirm it, in almost every country surveyed (in the Muslim world) over half the population supported suicide bombing against civilian targets. The surveys can be found with a google search or on wikipedia. Do a little legwork and educate yourself.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:03:37 UTC | #483627

Philoctetes                                        's Avatar Comment 13 by Philoctetes

It is a scary but plausible argument. I would suppose that his selection and quotations from their holy books are accurate and his extension from the ideal to the pragmatic implementation is not unrealistic. Where I have reservations is with the conversion of text to the personal belief and actions of the billion or so followers. We know that most christians just regard the bible as a guide rather than a manual of regulations, but the shrillest in support of literalism are the loudest not the most numerous. I would suggest that his analysis does apply to a minority of dangerous individuals. The problem is assessing the size and threat of that minority. That has to be countered somehow or else what passes for moderate muslims will be absorbed into a new, successful orthodoxy. We do have an advantage in the secular west in that we believe our values are superior. However, because we are liberal and can see the other point of view we tend not to be strident (excepting the likes of the BNP and that other newer group on nationalistic nutters the EDL) and do not trumpet these virtues as perhaps we should. After all, many muslims come here because at some level the do perceive a better life. Now I have no idea how to resolve and defuse this but ultimately some sort of choice has to be put to western living muslims. While they are making up their minds it might not hurt to make them feel welcome. Unfortunately the casual but deep racism that greeted their arrival goes back decades and has probably left deep scars. Today society is less overtly racist and here is one of the very few (only?) areas where the BNP has been quite clever, clothing its racism as anti-islamism. The fall back position should be: if the BNP thinks it's right, then it is probably wrong. The problem is that when it comes to extremism, the Islamists could hold masterclasses for the amateur BNP.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:13:46 UTC | #483629

root2squared's Avatar Comment 14 by root2squared

This is quite silly. One only has to listen to the Muslims who want to kill Americans to find out their motives.

For example, the recent times square bomber. Below is copied from an online article.

When the judge asked “You wanted to injure a lot of people?” Shahzad replied that he wanted “to injure people or kill people.” “One has to understand where I’m coming from.” He considered himself “a Muslim soldier,” and that United States had attacked Muslim lands. The judge interjected: “But not the people who were walking in Times Square that night. Did you look around to see who they were?”

Shahzad answered, “Well, the people select the government; we consider them all the same.”

“Including the children?” the judge asked.

Shahzad replied, “Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq…don’t see children; they don’t see anybody. They kill women, children. They kill everybody. It’s a war. And in war, they kill people. They’re killing all Muslims: I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And … I'm avenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their own people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die."

Mr. Shahzad was unapologetic. “I want to plead guilty, and I’m going to plead guilty 100 times over, because until the hour the U.S. pulls its forces from Iraq and Afghanistan,…and stops the drone strikes and stops the occupation of Muslim lands, and stops killing the Muslims, we will be attacking U.S., and I plead guilty to that.”

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:18:48 UTC | #483630

Long Johns Silver's Avatar Comment 15 by Long Johns Silver

If you think it's offensive to point out the obvious regarding "millions" of Muslims: get a clue. Either you're being willfully dishonest or you're lacking a basic high school numerical education.

For instance, focusing just on the case of Pakistan, let's take a look at the Pew Global Attitudes Project 2009. It seems that at the very minimum, 9% of Muslims support Al Qaeda and 27% support the Taliban. With a population of 170 million, that's very easily into the millions of fundamentalist Muslims who want to kill Americans. And that's just taking the case of Pakistan. No doubt other Muslim-majority nations are even worse. (Actually, the statistics for British Muslims are maybe just as bad.)

Those of you who were offended or surprised by claims of "millions" of Muslims should just take a step back and try to see how massively distorted is your conception of the world. You're just as deluded as a typical creationist, and even more of a threat to social stability. You're at a crossroads. Are you going to carry on with your self-serving, wretched behaviour, or will you do the honest thing and adopt the rationalist worldview?

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:27:44 UTC | #483634

gru's Avatar Comment 16 by gru

Fearmongering article. I think americans should fear a fellow american, more than they should fear a muslim. How many americans kill americans?

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:32:44 UTC | #483638

Chrysippus_Maximus's Avatar Comment 17 by Chrysippus_Maximus

Long Johns Silver, I don't know what you mean by 'rationalist', but that word is usually used in contrast to 'empiricist'. I'm also pretty sure most people on this website are not particularly rationalist, since most people don't think one can have knowledge of the world by reasoning from first principles (I do, but never mind...).

Claiming the 'rationalist' worldview for your views without really understanding what the word means is pretty ignorant.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:33:06 UTC | #483639

gru's Avatar Comment 18 by gru

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED why millions of Muslim men are dedicated to killing Americans?

If this is true then all it would take to have thousands of americans killed every year is for a muslim to kill, say, one american every 10 years. Does this happen? If there's dedication to this, where are the thousands of dead Americans? What a stupid article...

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:37:58 UTC | #483640

Bigger Al's Avatar Comment 19 by Bigger Al

Comment 14 by root2squared :

This is quite silly. One only has to listen to the Muslims who want to kill Americans to find out their motives.

For example, the recent times square bomber. Below is copied from an online article.

When the judge asked “You wanted to injure a lot of people?” Shahzad replied that he wanted “to injure people or kill people.” “One has to understand where I’m coming from.” He considered himself “a Muslim soldier,” and that United States had attacked Muslim lands. The judge interjected: “But not the people who were walking in Times Square that night. Did you look around to see who they were?”

Shahzad answered, “Well, the people select the government; we consider them all the same.”

“Including the children?” the judge asked.

Shahzad replied, “Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq…don’t see children; they don’t see anybody. They kill women, children. They kill everybody. It’s a war. And in war, they kill people. They’re killing all Muslims: I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And … I'm avenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their own people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die."

Mr. Shahzad was unapologetic. “I want to plead guilty, and I’m going to plead guilty 100 times over, because until the hour the U.S. pulls its forces from Iraq and Afghanistan,…and stops the drone strikes and stops the occupation of Muslim lands, and stops killing the Muslims, we will be attacking U.S., and I plead guilty to that.”

The sad irony is that this is not the goal of al-Qaeda. If you look at the list of grievances of al-Qaeda, you see in the top 5, the back tracking of the Ford administration (headed by Kissinger) on support for the Indonesian War in East Timor. That is right the immoral American decision to support a genocidal war in East Timor was not the complaint of al-Qaeda but rather the back tracking and support for East Timorese independence. Al-Qaeda viewed this as sacrificing part of the Muslim lands, the future Caliphate (which they hope to create).

Islamism and Islamic terror is not liberation theology, it is about violence, oppression, destruction, slavery, and destruction. I wish liberals would stop pretending this is some kind of liberation from evil secular democracies and not an obvious continuation of 1400 years of Islamic supremacism.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:38:29 UTC | #483641

Zelig's Avatar Comment 20 by Zelig

Comment 13 by Philoctetes :

. . . We do have an advantage in the secular west in that we believe our values are superior. . .

Alas, that simply isn't true. Quite the reverse. Nothing is so well established among our numerous useful idiots than the contrary proposition.

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:44:20 UTC | #483643

Long Johns Silver's Avatar Comment 21 by Long Johns Silver

Comment 17 by Spinoza :

Long Johns Silver, I don't know what you mean by 'rationalist', but that word is usually used in contrast to 'empiricist'. I'm also pretty sure most people on this website are not particularly rationalist, since most people don't think one can have knowledge of the world by reasoning from first principles (I do, but never mind...).

"Rationalist" is a word that speaks for itself. I don't care how the word is used among philosophers.

It's a good idea to fill your posts with substance. Maybe they didn't teach you that over in the Department of Philosophy.

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:39:57 UTC | #483644

-TheCodeCrack-'s Avatar Comment 22 by -TheCodeCrack-

Comment 18 by gru :

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED why millions of

Muslim men are dedicated to killing

Americans?

If this is true then all it would take to have thousands of americans killed every year is for a muslim to kill, say, one american every 10 years. Does this happen? If there's dedication to this, where are the thousands of dead Americans?

What a stupid article...

Um, where were you on September the 11th?

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:40:08 UTC | #483645

Zurak's Avatar Comment 23 by Zurak

Comment 16 by gru :

Fearmongering article.

I think americans should fear a fellow american, more than they should fear a muslim. How many americans kill americans?

Pffft! rubbish. You are either a muslim or dhimmi. Americans need to fear muslims more then their fellow Americans. Even if that muslim is a fellow American. Nothing in this article is fear mongering, nice try.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:50:19 UTC | #483651

gru's Avatar Comment 24 by gru

Comment 22 by -TheCodeCrack-

I supose you didn't understand my point. A dedication of millions of muslims to kill americans should have a steady and terrifying outcame. It would be like malaria killing people and not like outbursts of ebola. 9/11 was like an outburst of ebola... not something so constant like the death rate of malaria. In 9/11 you see just a bunch of dedicated muslims wanting to kill americans. Now imagine millions like them?

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:52:57 UTC | #483652

gru's Avatar Comment 25 by gru

Comment 23 by Zurak

ffft! rubbish. You are either a muslim or dhimmi. Americans need to fear muslims more then their fellow Americans. Even if that muslim is a fellow American. Nothing in this article is fear mongering, nice try.

You try to label me to dismiss me? I'm spanish. I have a catholic upbringing... and i'm atheist. You haven't said nothing there. How many americans die at the hands of other americans? How many americans die at the hands of muslims? Prove it to me that it's more rational for an american to fear a muslim more than they shoul fear another american passing by.

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:00:49 UTC | #483654

Long Johns Silver's Avatar Comment 26 by Long Johns Silver

The claim that millions of Muslims are dedicated to killing Americans might well be true. Think, for example, of the steady influx of foreign Jihadists in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Even if the author has slightly overstated this one claim, there's no need to get hung up about it, as he makes many other points which are both interesting and valid.

Notice that this sort of obstructive nitpicking never occurs in the comments to the articles on anything to do with Christians.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:04:29 UTC | #483659

Zurak's Avatar Comment 27 by Zurak

Comment 25 by gru :

Comment 23 by Zurak

ffft! rubbish. You are either a muslim

or dhimmi. Americans need to fear

muslims more then their fellow

Americans. Even if that muslim is a

fellow American. Nothing in this

article is fear mongering, nice try.

You try to label me to dismiss me? I'm spanish. I have a catholic upbringing... and i'm atheist.

You haven't said nothing there. How many americans die at the hands of other americans? How many americans die at the hands of muslims? Prove it to me that it's more rational for an american to fear a muslim more than they shoul fear another american passing by.

Reason Americans should fear a muslims more then Americans.

1)WTC bombings in 1993

2) WTC bombing in 2001

3) Fort hood shooting by Mj Hassan

4) Attempted bombing of a synagogue here in NY in the summer of 09

5) Recent failed bombing in times square by Shahzad

6) Failed bombing of the underwear muslim bomber exported in from Africa.

7) Bombing of the pentagon.

I can go on and on. You are just deliberately trying to distort the topic of this thread from muslims to Americans, disgusting.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:08:56 UTC | #483662

-TheCodeCrack-'s Avatar Comment 28 by -TheCodeCrack-

Comment 26 by Long Johns Silver :

Notice that this sort of obstructive nitpicking never occurs in the comments to the articles on anything to do with Christians.

I think that's a terrific observation and I've seen it time and time again when on the subject of critiques of Islam and/or Christianity, and of topics related to the ideological flows through subsets of adherents within those religions.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:11:05 UTC | #483663

Zelig's Avatar Comment 29 by Zelig

If I were an impartial Martian, I would suggest that no major civilisation can long exist if a significant number of its own citizens know no greater source of pleasure than to actively support doctrines which explicitly reject its supposedly core tenets.

All joking aside, I think we're way past the tipping point here. We're finished, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:22:33 UTC | #483666

Axulus's Avatar Comment 30 by Axulus

Comment 24 by gru :

Comment 22 by -TheCodeCrack- I supose you didn't understand my point. A dedication of millions of muslims to kill americans should have a steady and terrifying outcame. It would be like malaria killing people and not like outbursts of ebola. 9/11 was like an outburst of ebola... not something so constant like the death rate of malaria. In 9/11 you see just a bunch of dedicated muslims wanting to kill americans. Now imagine millions like them?

It was hyperbole, not a factual statement. I seriously doubt it was meant to be taken literally.

Updated: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:40:23 UTC | #483669