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The 10:23 Event - Comments

Pete.K's Avatar Comment 1 by Pete.K

I've told all my Facebook friends that I will be overdosing on 30th January 2010, and invited them to join me, the the following day I've announced my intention to go to the pub for pint, and invited everyone to join me there too!

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:02:00 UTC | #432615

JackR's Avatar Comment 2 by JackR

Hmm. I think I might be able to participate in this. The question is, which homeopathic remedy should I OD on because, you know, that will make a lot of difference...

Hey Pete - I trust you'll be drinking homeopathic lager in the pub afterwards? :-)

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:07:00 UTC | #432616

beeline's Avatar Comment 3 by beeline

Surely you can only overdose on homeopathic medicine by taking too little - isn't that the 'thinking' behind their treatment?

I'm in serious danger of giving myself a fatal dose by never taking any at all.

Or something.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:07:00 UTC | #432617

SamKiddoGordon's Avatar Comment 4 by SamKiddoGordon

I remember a joke about a homeopath forgetting to take his meds and died of an overdose£

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:17:00 UTC | #432620

jamiepw's Avatar Comment 5 by jamiepw

There is a danger here that the sugar sensitive person here may actually have a result from the taking of these pills.

I wonder if they do a sugar free version, which would contain.........a molecule that once passed by a sugar plantation, ahh that's it....a Homeopathic Sugared Sugar pill.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:17:00 UTC | #432621

ICONIC FREEDOM's Avatar Comment 6 by ICONIC FREEDOM

Interesting.

If someone who is a homeopath wants to work with someone who wants the homeopathic remedies, what business is it of anyone's?

Demonstrations and protests are a foundation of freedom of speech, no doubt. I would be the last person to silence speech of ANY kind.

I do find it interesting that someone who makes a choice whereas the choice has no affect on you, is the target of such ire.

I didn't realize that the ire toward religion, homeopathy and the like wasn't about freedom of all such things from government where pluralistic tax dollars are being utilized, but instead, about trying to control someone else's behavior, thinking, and choices.

Isn't that the same approach religious people attempt quite often? Self-righteousness, whereas because something is right for you it must be right for all, as such, all must subjugate to it?

Isn't that what islam does? convert, subjugate or die.

Live your life at no cost to others without their consent. If a person makes a choice in life that does not infringe on your free choices, why do you care?

I shifted to a place of not caring about religion or religious "beliefs" of another human being, only in that he does not try and use government to favor such or endorse such.

You can set yourself up for looking stupid in the future if science discovers that homeopathy was approached in error and actually was a valid form of treatment.

And in the end, why do you care?

As long as homeopathy isn't being covered by socialistic government run health care (so my tax dollars aren't funding ANY person's health care) what care do I have that another human being wants to make a free choice for what works for him.

If a man thinks that jelly beans will cure his illness, let him enjoy it as long as I don't have to pay for it and his choice does not infringe on any free choices of others.

I have no need to control others. If you do, you might ask yourself why.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:23:00 UTC | #432623

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 7 by rod-the-farmer

I took a homeopathic overdose once. I got better. The comment by Iconic Freedom does have a point, but we are just practising. Next, we take on the people who sued Simon Singh.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:28:00 UTC | #432625

UncleNasty's Avatar Comment 8 by UncleNasty

@Iconic Freedom:

In the UK and Canada, tax money is going toward these quack remedies. As long as these remedies are on the shelves and appear to have the weight of official acceptance behind them, they get in the way of proper, scientifically proven medical care.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:35:00 UTC | #432626

pberry's Avatar Comment 9 by pberry

> As long as homeopathy isn't being covered by socialistic government run health care (so my tax dollars aren't funding ANY person's health care) what care do I have that another human being wants to make a free choice for what works for him.

Here in the UK the NHS runs 5 homeopathic hopsitals, though one has since closed after a funding review. Therefore it *is* in my interest not to have public money spent on treatments with no proven medical efficacy (other than placebo) whatsoever. That is not good value for money and if people feel strongly enough that they want a homeopathic course of treatment they can throw their own money at it. However it should *not* be funded from the public purse.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:38:00 UTC | #432628

Mark Jones's Avatar Comment 10 by Mark Jones

Comment #451671 by ICONIC FREEDOM

There really is little harm in homeopaths selling homeopathic treatments to those that want them, and in a free society, where everyone has access to information about these treatments, no-one has any business interfering with that. We don't stop fortune tellers and astrologers, do we? In this case, however, I would like Boots to stop selling these treatments as *pharmaceutical* items, since this gives them a patina of respect - it is as if Boots are giving them the seal of approval as a valid treatment (even though they accept there is no evidence that they work).

By all means sell them in another part of the store - with the other sweets, perhaps?

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:39:00 UTC | #432630

lackofgravitas's Avatar Comment 11 by lackofgravitas

Iconic Freedom,
The point here isn't freedom of speech, it's about peddling bullshit to the gullible. Yes, you have a choice, but if you are seriously ill and your family have a 'tradition' of alt-medicating, you can easily find yourself dead.

Hopefully,this is the last gasp of this bull in the UK, these quacks need to be marginalised, and the strongest message is to get their wares removed from the most trusted pharmacy chain in the UK.

As for being paid for by taxes, you'll find in the UK that this does happen, and more clinicians are willing to allow patients access to woo, even if it's only for the placebo effect.

There; fixed that for you.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:41:00 UTC | #432631

simonchase's Avatar Comment 13 by simonchase

@iconic freedom

Boots should be free to sell homeopathic items but I politely ask that they stop. In the UK Boots is a trusted high street chemist and as such they surely have some responsibility to the public not to sell them useless junk. Most people just do not research these matters and if they see something in Boots just assume it's a nice alternative natural remedy rather than snake oil.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:43:00 UTC | #432633

ccmclaugh's Avatar Comment 12 by ccmclaugh

Dear ICONIC FREEDOM:

How about doing something to help others? How about the fact that every homeopathic remedy sold enriches a con man and funds his further exploitation of the ignorant?

I find that libertarian values taken too far are selfish and cowardly. We do have some moral responsibility to others.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:43:00 UTC | #432632

Christopher Davis's Avatar Comment 14 by Christopher Davis

@ICONIC FREEDOM

Your points are well-taken and, for the most part sound. However, here is the rub...

While you are right that a person's personal beliefs (as long as they don't harm anyone else)are their own business, if a man thinks that jelly beans will cure his illness, society's obligation not to interfere isn't so clear when the man is being convinced by someone else that jelly beans will cure his illness (especially if they are profiting off encouraging this belief). It becomes even less clear if this man is being encouraged to forgo legitimate medical treatment in favor of jelly beans.

Fraud is not a victimless crime. Homeopathy is fraud, pure and simple.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:48:00 UTC | #432634

jeroen's Avatar Comment 15 by jeroen

Hospital scene in a world where homeopathy wins from science:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVV3QQ3wjC8

I especially like the extra-strong C30 beers at the end.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:49:00 UTC | #432635

Ygern's Avatar Comment 16 by Ygern

ICONIC FREEDOM

This isn't about free speech, it's nowhere near as simple as that. It's about people trusting that this stuff is real medicine because trusted shops sell them and therefore
1) wasting their money on something that can't work and
2) going so far as to deny themselves or their children real medicine on the basis of this erroneous belief.

You may not be aware that there have actually been deaths because of this ignorance and blind belief in a world view. This is not acceptable and certainly can't be defended as freedom to believe what you want.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/28/homeopathy-baby-death-couple-jailed

Sure, for a lot of people the worst consequence is them wasting their cash on a bottle of water or sugar/lactose pills. But I would argue that even here the homeopathy manufacturers are trading on the consumer's ignorance and genuine lack of knowledge of what they are taking. It's a multi-billion dollar snake-oil industry that preys on ignorance and gullibility. Yes, they do need to be confronted.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:52:00 UTC | #432639

gos's Avatar Comment 17 by gos

6. Comment #451671 by ICONIC FREEDOM

[T]rying to control someone else's behavior, thinking, and choices.


Dude, you're debating on the internet. How is that not trying to change (i.e. control) someone else's thinking (which might lead to changes in their behavior/choices)?

Claims that you are merely stating your opinion and not trying to change anyone's mind are disingenuous, at best.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:56:00 UTC | #432640

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 18 by Ignorant Amos

6. Comment #451671 by ICONIC FREEDOM

There is a whole lot wrong with your post I'm afraid to point out.

By all means, if people want to be stupid with their cash by buying into this caper then more fool them. But it isn't as simple as that. What we have happening is vulnerable people being stroked. They are fed a lot of scientific mumbo jumbo about the healing abilities of...well nothing in fact. This isn't a real issue until something serious comes along. Now imagine you're mother is diagnosed cancer or the like, but rather than seek "proper" medical advice, she is taken in by all the hype around Homeopathy, she opts to see one of these conmen rather than take proper cancer treatment. Do you see the problem? Big companies like Boots Chemist give credance to these remedies by selling them along side proven and tested medicine. Smart people can use their noodle and work out that is all nonsense, but everyone isn't as smart as the enlightened ones here. People who can ill afford to, will be getting nothing but a bottle of water and thinking it is making them better.

Scientific studies have shown that Homeapathy has no effect other than placebo, if science one day shows that all the clever folk are wrong, then like anything else science proves to be wrong, our atitude will have to change, but as it stands, it is bunkum.

As UncleNasty has pointed out, it is being used in Alternative Medicine Departments financed by the NHS, which comes out of my pocket. And believe me that everyone pays... a person who gets chronically ill because they did not recieve the proper treatment in good time because they were taking "sugar pills", costs.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:01:00 UTC | #432644

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 19 by Ignorant Amos

Jebus H....so many people thinking the same thing.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:04:00 UTC | #432645

Clairebear's Avatar Comment 20 by Clairebear

Of course, you'd have to be careful you didn't drink the most MASSIVE amount, because though there's nothing in homeopathy, too much water can certainly kill you... and the homeopaths would love that, because it would 'prove' it was real medicine.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:05:00 UTC | #432646

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 21 by Ignorant Amos

Isn't there something about there being more molecules of Napoleons urine in a bottle of Homeopathy "medicine" than the active ingredient meant to cure......something like that, wish I could remember from where though.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:12:00 UTC | #432650

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 22 by Cartomancer

Aaaaargh! Don't think about the Event!

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:14:00 UTC | #432651

UncleVanya's Avatar Comment 24 by UncleVanya

My medical knowledge is pretty slim, at best, but does it really prove the inefficacy of homeopathic remedies if you neck a whole bottle? Aren't there certain things you can take that DO produce a beneficial effect, but if you take too much you just excrete out the excess? I have a feeling that vitamin C is one of those - if you drank a bucket of it, you'd just pee out 99.9% of it and suffer no ill-effects. Not everything that is "real medicine" harms you in excessive quantities (although someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

I do see the point in the way the protest is set up, though - unfortunately anything you COULD do that would make your case scientifically would be a bit too long and involved to do outside boots on a Saturday morning, i.e. line up a decent-size sample of sufferers from a particular condition, give some of them the homeopathic remedy and others of them some empty sugar pills, wait a fortnight to see how they get better etc. etc.

Also - Iconic Freedom - you said this: "Self-righteousness, whereas because something is right for you it must be right for all, as such, all must subjugate to it?". There's a real point here because proper medicine is something that has been tested and it's been shown that IS right for everybody. If you are suffering from a certain condition, then the appropriate proper medicine will treat it whoever you are. This puts it in a completely different bracket than a worldview or system of government, where what's right for some people may not be right for others.

As has been said here many times - you may be entitled to your own opinions and traditions, you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

Edit to remove repeated word

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:19:00 UTC | #432653

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 23 by the great teapot

Yeah.
That'll show em.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:19:00 UTC | #432652

UncleNasty's Avatar Comment 25 by UncleNasty

@UncleVanya

I think this explains why science does not appeal to most of the folks this demonstration is intended to provoke into thought:

http://xkcd.com/683/

Science in real life is _so_ dull compared to the science they have come to expect...

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:32:00 UTC | #432660

Jos Gibbons's Avatar Comment 26 by Jos Gibbons

I see the point of doing this at 10:23 am, but why on January 30th? If we do it a second time, we shouldn't wait for January 2011; we should do it twice annually, the other time on October 23rd. Perhaps only those who know how Americans think will get why, but that should be lots of people.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:34:00 UTC | #432661

lordshipmayhem's Avatar Comment 27 by lordshipmayhem

Homeopathic beer... isn't that just bottled water? Or is that like Chateau Thames River?

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:44:00 UTC | #432665

Veronique's Avatar Comment 28 by Veronique

Hey Iconic Freedom - is that you Scooter??

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:51:00 UTC | #432667

Quetzalcoatl's Avatar Comment 29 by Quetzalcoatl

Veronique-

It is indeed.

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:54:00 UTC | #432669

Ohnhai's Avatar Comment 30 by Ohnhai

surely water intoxication is the only (sure) way to actually OD on a homoeopathic remedy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:59:00 UTC | #432670