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Teenage girl buried alive in Turkey for talking to boys - Comments

ozturk's Avatar Comment 31 by ozturk

I'd be interested to know who is responsible for the comment 'But it's part of their culture, so it's OK', which appears under the headline in the Latest News section. It's not part of the Telegraph article, so presumably it's the 'editorial opinion' of someone on this site. It's obviously meant to be offensive, and there's always a time and a place for that, but whom is it meant to offend? Who are 'they'? Just this family? All Turks? All Muslims? I suspect we wouldn't see it under the headline 'Cellar incest case shocks Austria'.

We should rightly be horrified by this case, but I think we should also be careful about throwaway comments that unjustly condemn a large group of people to whom they don't necessarily apply.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:44:00 UTC | #438835

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 32 by Richard Dawkins

Most Muslims don't do honour killings, but the vast majority of honour killings are done by Muslims, loyally practising their faith and following what their religion has taught them is the right and proper thing to do.

Richard

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:49:00 UTC | #438836

weavehole's Avatar Comment 33 by weavehole

Sam Harris has often asked where the Islamic reformation can come from, if it can at all. Well, if it ever does come, and I can't imagine it ever being an easy or swift change, then it will have to come from the inside. Jumping from one article on these premeditated murders to another I came across this group:

http://www.musawah.org/faq.asp

While the world today regards women's rights as an integral part of human rights, there appears to be a disconnect between Muslim family laws and women's daily realities. These family laws also violate constitutional guarantees of equality and non-discrimination and government commitments to international human rights conventions. Musawah contends that this discrimination is untenable and indefensible. Hence, the need for law reform.



http://www.musawah.org/framework_action.asp

We, as Muslims and as citizens of modern nations, declare that equality and justice in the family are both necessary and possible. The time for realising these values in our laws and practices is now.



Their report on Turkey: http://www.musawah.org/docs/research/country-reports/Turkey-report.pdf

The terminology and phrasing in several articles of the old penal code [1926] regarding sexuality referred to traditional notions, all adapted into Turkish from Arabic, and commonly associated with religious, i.e. Islamic morality. The notion of ırz, defined by the Ottoman-Turkish dictionary as ‘honor’ or ‘purity’, was the key concept in definition of sexual crimes. For example, the term used for rape in the code was ırza geçmek (penetrating one’s honor) instead of the common word used for rape in Turkish, tecavüz (violation, attack). The use of the term ırza geçmek for rape implies that rape was viewed in the code primarily as a violation of honor, and not as a crime committed against an individual’s bodily integrity. This view alone disallowed criminalization of marital rape, as sexual acts within the context of marriage – even if forced or brutal – could not be considered an assault against one’s honor. The definition of rape or attempted rape using ırz instead of tecavüz was in line with the main intention of the law to protect men’s or the family’s honor, as opposed to protecting women and girls from sexual crimes.

The law also sanctioned the murder of women in the name of honor. Article 462 of the Turkish Criminal Code granted a sentence reduction of up to seven-eighths to male and female perpetrators of honor crimes if the victim were caught in the act of committing adultery or ‘illegitimate sexual relations,’ or if there was evidence beyond doubt that the victim had just completed such an act.


Since the 2004 Penal Code:
The reform of the Penal Code has transformed the philosophy of the old Penal Code by acknowledging women’s right to have autonomy over their bodies and sexuality. To this end, sexual crimes are regulated as crimes against individuals/crimes against the inviolability of sexual integrity, instead of as crimes against society, family or public morality. All references to vague patriarchal constructs such as chastity, morality, shame, public customs, or decency have been eliminated and definitions of such crimes against women brought in line with global human rights norms.
The new code, which states in the first article that the aim of the law is to “protect the rights and freedoms of individuals,” brings progressive definitions and higher sentences for sexual crimes; criminalizes marital rape; brings measures to prevent sentence reductions granted to perpetrators of honor killings; eliminates previously existing discrimination against non-virgin and unmarried women; criminalizes sexual harassment at the workplace and considers sexual assaults by security forces to be aggravated offences. Provisions regulating the sexual abuse of children have been amended to explicitly define sexual abuse and remove the notion of “consent of the child.” Provisions legitimizing rape and abduction in cases which the perpetrator marries the victim have been abolished; the article granting sentence reduction to mothers killing the newborn children born out of wedlock is removed; and the article regulating “indecent behavior” has been amended to include only sexual intercourse in public and exhibitionism.
Despite the overall success of our campaign, four of our demands were not accepted. These include the definition of honor crimes (not only the so-called customary crimes) as aggravated homicide; the penalization of discrimination based on sexual orientation; the criminalization of virginity testing under all circumstances; and the extension of the legal abortion period from 10 to 12 weeks.
Moreover, during the review of the Penal Code in the Justice Commission, two new articles were added to the penal code, which constitute a backlash. One of the articles provides for the criminalization of consensual sexual relations of youth aged 15 – 18 upon complaint. The other new article criminalizes publication of obscene material thereby threatening freedom of expression and legitimizing discrimination based on sexual orientation.


As usual we are looking at small steps and it's not difficult to imagine that for every Muslim that wants to see reform in the direction of equality, and what we might call modern values, there will be many who will think very differently.

We all know how any self-contradicting religious book can be interpreted in more than one way (e.g. C of E v Pat Robertson) and I wonder here whether the Qur'an verses quoted by Musawah in their framework for action are Meccan or Medinan?

Still, it is good to know that there is a possibility (however slim) that reform could happen. More power to them and their version of an imaginary god.

If they already had that power perhaps rd.net would not exist...

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:01:00 UTC | #438838

R. A. B.'s Avatar Comment 34 by R. A. B.

This is sickening and saddening. It makes me grateful that my parents decided to move here instead of staying in the Muslim country where they were living before and sad for all the people who have to live with this kind of thing being considered okay in their country.

I think this shows that we can't just say that something can be right when one person does it but wrong when another person does it. We can't just say it's okay becaue it's their culture. Plus, we can't just say that having friends of the opposite gender is okay for us here, but not okay for people in other countries, just because it's their culture.

From the article:

It also emerged that Medine had repeatedly tried to report to police that she had been beaten by her father and grandfather days before she was killed. "She tried to take refuge at the police station three times, and she was sent home three times," her mother, Immihan, said after the body was discovered in December.


The fact that such horrible treatment of children is ignored is maddening. It's bad enough that it happens, but then to add on to that, others in the country ignore the problem until something really horrible happens.

sillygirl (17. Comment #458406 by sillygirl on February 5, 2010 at 2:25 pm) wrote:
Yes, people do not need religion to be cruel. But they need it in order for the rest of the world to look the other way.


Agreed. Too many people pretend that, if something is a part of a person's religion, then it's okay, even if it's hurting someone else. People try to defend anything and everything, including violence, under freedom of religion, even if those actions are taking away the freedom (and sometimes the lives) of other people.

epeeist (Comment #458431 by epeeist on February 5, 2010 at 3:23 pm) wrote:

Could I urge people to be somewhat circumspect here.

I have read through the article in the Telegraph and various other reports. In none of these is religion mentioned, never mind a specific religion.

There may well be a religious element to this, but you don't hypothesise before your data.


You make a good point. Even though there are some things that we often hear about being done by Muslim, there are times when it's done by other religious groups as well. Plus, there's always the possibility that someone learned something from their religion and then continue to follow it even if they are not very religious (such as people holding on to prejudices they were taught when they were young).

Either way, it's horrible. While I'm glad that the father and grandfather are facing trial, I can't help but think that she may have survived if others (such as the police) had cared enough to actually do something when she went to them for help.

-R. A. B.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:05:00 UTC | #438839

Barry Pearson's Avatar Comment 36 by Barry Pearson

#458414 by Rtambree: If we were rational, then DNA paternity kits sold at pharmacies could always reassure the husband that he is the father, and then women could behave just like men without any stigma. But paternity tests are only a dozen years old, while our evolution is over millions of years.
I discuss "Paternity testing and Islam" at the following page:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/gods/islam_paternity.htm

Some of the judgements by Islamic scholars reveal just how incompatible much of Islam is with the 21st Century:

"I would like to stress that DNA as well as the hereditary print are no more than supporting evidences. In other words, they can not be considered as independent legal evidences on their own. Thus, if we are to consider DNA as an evidence that is supposed to establish paternity or prove a crime such as Zina, then it must be supported by clear legal proofs such as witnesses or confession."

"Shariah does not recognise such tests as valid proof to determine the legitimacy of a child. DNA tests cannot replace the requirement of witnesses who must be present to prove the charges in question.... Islam asks us to prohibit publicising one's sins. By adopting DNA tests as a method of determining paternity, we will end up propagating others' sins".

But, to be fair, there is often a reaction against the use of paternity tests in the "Western" world. Many politicians want to ban "motherless" paternity tests, often for completely spurious reasons, and there are laws in some countries to ban them. Consider this commentary on silly comments from Helena Kennedy QC, Chair of the Human Genetics Commission:
http://www.childsupportanalysis.co.uk/papers/truth/index.htm

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:08:00 UTC | #438842

frankyv's Avatar Comment 35 by frankyv

If they murder one woman as a warning, how many other women get scared into behaving themselves. Lots I suspect. Its quite an efficient way to control the female population. They are vile barbaric thugs.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:08:00 UTC | #438841

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 37 by Richard Dawkins

I'd be interested to know who is responsible for the comment 'But it's part of their culture, so it's OK', which appears under the headline in the Latest News section. It's not part of the Telegraph article, so presumably it's the 'editorial opinion' of someone on this site. It's obviously meant to be offensive, and there's always a time and a place for that, but whom is it meant to offend? Who are 'they'? Just this family? All Turks? All Muslims? I suspect we wouldn't see it under the headline 'Cellar incest case shocks Austria'.
As it happens, I was responsible for the comment to which you object, and I do not apologise. The equivalent would be wholly inappropriate for the Austrian cellar case, because that had no connection with normal Austrian culture or religion. But 'honour killing', and the ill-treatment of women generally, has everything to do with the Muslim religion and culture, even if it is not practised by a majority of individual Muslims. Did I intend to offend Turks? Certainly not. Did I intend to offend Muslims? Yes, but only those Muslims who fail to stand up and condemn the disgusting misogyny and cruelty that is rampant throughout their religion. Mainly, however, my comment was intended as a satire on those wishy washy European liberals who are so terrified of being thought racist that they use almost exactly the same patronising and condescending words. The most glaring example was a German female judge who, in 2007, absolved a Muslim man of blame for beating his wife and threatening to murder her, citing a Koranic verse to justify it as an accepted religious practice in Islamic culture.


Richard

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:11:00 UTC | #438843

Barry Pearson's Avatar Comment 38 by Barry Pearson

#458442 by Richard Dawkins:
Most Muslims don't do honour killings, but the vast majority of honour killings are done by Muslims, loyally practising their faith and following what their religion has taught them is the right and proper thing to do.
I haven't found the bit in the Koran or the haddith that advocates honour killing. I think it may be a sort of cultural extension to Islam, not Islam itself.

But that doesn't absolve Islam, of course. It is likely that comprehensive condemnation by all Muslim communities would dramatically reduce the incidence. Sometimes Muslims are led to believe these are aspects of Islam.

It is unlikely that these practices would be common within a society whose religion gave females the same rights as men. (If there is one!) Islam establishes a climate where men tend to be in control and women are viewed as having fewer rights.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:23:00 UTC | #438848

ukvillafan's Avatar Comment 39 by ukvillafan

Most people, whether Muslim or not, would not condone such behaviour.

However, the concept of "honour" (do we have to use that word?) killing has cultural roots that need exposing. Even if there is some form of "evolutionary psychological explanation" for how it arose, or how it became entrenched in a particular culture, there is a need to examine it as a cuiltural phenomenon in its current form.

So, where is it practised now? I'm guessing here, but I suspect it is exclusively within the bosom of Islam. If not, then I would guess that other honour killings are likely to be rooted in a religious environment. There may be the odd one or two which result from the "paternal uncertainty principle" (lol, couldn't resist that one), but from where does that evolutionary idea/process obtain the succour to perpetuate itself, what has promoted the underlying sexism? Don't we all know the answer?

The inevitable questions arise, why did it take hold in Islamic countries and communities and how/why it is perpetuated? Surely, the answer must be because of religious dogma, the indoctrination of a multitude of humans into a belief system that so degrades the humanity of its adherents that they can commit acts of barbarism of this nature.

Let's not pussyfoot around here, sure, there may be no independent scientific assessment of the roots and perpetuation of honour killings (though there may be, for all I know) but really, does the preponderence of such behaviour in Muslim communities not tell us enough?

And people wonder that we stand up and shout about the degradation of humanity that has its roots in religion!

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:25:00 UTC | #438850

root2squared's Avatar Comment 40 by root2squared

My immediate reaction was that of regret - as civilized people, we can't bury alive the people who did this.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:29:00 UTC | #438854

ozturk's Avatar Comment 42 by ozturk

I still think, RD, that by using 'loyally practising their faith and following what their religion has taught' and also by suggesting in your response that the incest case is not 'normal Austrian culture or religion', you imply both that this is normal for Muslims, and, by extension in this case I think, Turks. We should of course condemn those who fail to stand up against misogyny and cruelty; I just don't feel that 'part of their culture' is justified. All religions are problematic, and Islam more problematic than most in my opinion. Nor should we be accommodationist, and I completely agree with your comments re the German judge, and wishy washy liberals.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:40:00 UTC | #438858

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 41 by Cook@Tahiti

I suppose the 'logic' goes something like...

1. Daughters are dependent on their fathers because they can't be educated or earn a living themelves. This was the case in the west until about 100 years ago.

2. Fathers pay another man (dowry) to take the daughter off their hands, which comes with an implied guarantee of virginity and faithfulness.

3. If another man is to spend his finite resources on her, chastity is paramount, otherwise his genes won't get passed on to the next generation. Until the advent of DNA paternity tests, there was no way of being certain the child was his.

4. Violation of faithfulness brings shame on the men responsible for her welfare.

But as to why Islam preserves this barbaric attitude whereas the west shook it off, is a good question for cultural historians.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:40:00 UTC | #438857

Adrian Bartholomew's Avatar Comment 43 by Adrian Bartholomew

42. Comment #458464 by ozturk on February 5, 2010 at 4:40 pm
you imply both that this is normal for Muslims, and, by extension in this case I think, Turks
Did he? I thought he implied that it you could logically get to honour killings from the teachings of the Koran whereas you can’t do that by just being Austrian (or a Turk). Someone correct me if I’m wrong here

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:47:00 UTC | #438860

Disbelief's Avatar Comment 44 by Disbelief

@ozturk

When half of all murders in Turkey are honour killings then I think you could say that it is in their culture.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:57:00 UTC | #438864

Eventhorizon's Avatar Comment 45 by Eventhorizon

Please have a look at these links - this is by no means an isolated case

http://www.honourkillings.gn.apc.org/honour.htm

http://www.stophonourkillings.com

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:02:00 UTC | #438866

epeeist's Avatar Comment 46 by epeeist

Comment #458456 by ukvillafan:

So, where is it practised now? I'm guessing here, but I suspect it is exclusively within the bosom of Islam. If not, then I would guess that other honour killings are likely to be rooted in a religious environment.
Why are you guessing?

There is information to be found - http://www.unifem.org/gender_issues/violence_against_women/facts_figures.php?page=4 and yes it does appear to take place mostly in countries where Islam is the primary religion, but note the comment about Brazil.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:05:00 UTC | #438869

jel's Avatar Comment 47 by jel

this story is sickening. it is barbaric. how does any parent do this to it's own child? some try to say that it is in their culture not their religion, but their religion is a major part of their culture and it is their religion that brings them to this. without religion to back them up they would not have resorted to this.

a further point, i object very much to the use of the term "honour killing". there is no honour in this.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:09:00 UTC | #438870

KentuckyBoy's Avatar Comment 48 by KentuckyBoy

If they are religious I wonder if they will be given a lighter sentence?

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:33:00 UTC | #438876

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 49 by Cartomancer

Whether this is directly down to "islam" or not is somewhat immaterial. Clearly some powerful cultural imperative has caused this horrific incident, and clearly it derives from a highly restrictive patriarchal view of sex, relationships and society.

The lesson that needs to be learned is that the vitally important thing is to apply reason, logic and skepticism to ALL cultural institutions, but most ESPECIALLY to those involving deep-rooted biological and instinctive imperatives. And there are few imperatives more deeply rooted than the sexual and reproductive ones.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:41:00 UTC | #438879

Christopher Davis's Avatar Comment 51 by Christopher Davis

Paula Kirby wrote...

"The demise of Islam alone would be the greatest single step forward in human dignity, well-being and decency I can imagine."---comment #14

I don't have the words to express how completely I agree with this statement.

A few months ago, I took a class in Islamic civilization and according to my professor (and the authors of the texts we used in class) much of the misogyny in contemporary Islam is a result of the Muslim conquest of the Sassanid empire. While this seems to me probable in the case of large harems and veiling, I've read nothing that leads me to belive that this is the origin of "honor killing".

Regardless of the origin of this vile way of thinking, Prof. Dawkins hits the nail on the head when he writes...

"Most Muslims don't do honour killings, but the vast majority of honour killings are done by Muslims, loyally practising their faith and following what their religion has taught them is the right and proper thing to do."---comment #32

In today's world "honor killing" is a uniquely Muslim phenomenon.

As for cruelty not being the exclusive domain of the religious...

I agree. And if given 30 minutes in a locked room with the father and grandfather of the poor girl in this article, I could provide empirical proof of this.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:05:00 UTC | #438888

cerad's Avatar Comment 50 by cerad

At least they didn't stone her. That's progress of a sort.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:05:00 UTC | #438887

xsjadolateralus's Avatar Comment 52 by xsjadolateralus

What? God hates sluts......

That's why he created dirt, to bury and suffocate them. DUH

In all seriousness, I'm joking because I can't do much more than I'm already doing about this.

I really just wanted to be there as it happened, so I could fill the hole with her "parents", instead.

It's really too bad this hell is too far away, and too well protected, for any of us to intervene.

The same with the 'witch children' of Africa.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:09:00 UTC | #438891

extremophile's Avatar Comment 53 by extremophile

Could someone please point me to someone who actually says that "this is ok because it's their culture?" (as sarcastically said on the rss).

While I think that there may be people who actually say that, I think they may be so few and so meaningless that it's totally pointless to make such remarks. Somewhat like giving this sort of attention to "UFOlogists"/alien conspirationists, with smart-ass commentaries of how any incident has aliens behind it and how an undefined "they" cover it all up.

More commonly, I think people may be just giving an explanation of why it may be commonly seen as not extraordinary, or even right, for some people, while atrocious to others. Which is totally different than saying that "it is ok".

By failing to see the distinction, we're just making up some sort of ghostly straw-man that haunts the society, not much different from the cultivated fears of the evil communists-atheists-darwinists and their quest to bring the end of the world and Satan back from hell.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:14:00 UTC | #438894

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 54 by Cook@Tahiti

extremophile
>we're just making up some sort of ghostly straw-man that haunts the society

From the article...
Official figures have indicated that more than 200 such killings take place each year, accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey.

Here's perhaps a more robust example of a systematic culture of killing, with **slightly** higher numbers...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W520090917

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:19:00 UTC | #438897

inquisador's Avatar Comment 55 by inquisador

458454 by Barry Pearson:-
'I haven't found the bit in the Koran or the haddith that advocates honour killing. I think it may be a sort of cultural extension to Islam, not Islam itself.'

I can help with this as I do happen to know that:

There is no legal penalty under Islamic law for anyone who murders their child or grandchild.

Yes, you read that correctly. Reference- Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2. which is 'a manual of Islamic law certified as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy by Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam.'

The Islamic law on honour killing is almost as permissive. For more on this see Robert Spencer-
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/02/girl-buried-alive-in-honor-killing-in-turkey.html

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:26:00 UTC | #438903

weavehole's Avatar Comment 56 by weavehole

Comment #458501 by extremophile
Please see Comment #458449 and Judge Christa Datz-Winter

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:27:00 UTC | #438905

Mark Smith's Avatar Comment 57 by Mark Smith

but from where else does honour killing come from, if not from a position of faith, of which religion holds in spades?

Not to say that religion isn't also to blame, but I have always thought of honour killing as at least in part arising from deeper biological/cultural causes, namely the need to maintain the boundaries of your group/tribe.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:34:00 UTC | #438910

robotaholic's Avatar Comment 58 by robotaholic

maybe this will dispell the idea that honor killing isn't from the Koran - http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm


EDIT

here not to be piling on but:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

Now some sahih hadiths:

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)


Sahi Bukhari: 8:6814:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: “A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.”

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

Al-Bayhaqi:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire.”

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:38:00 UTC | #438913

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 59 by Richard Dawkins

At least they didn't stone her. That's progress of a sort.
Yes indeed. And don't let's forget the wonderfully humane ruling about the size of stones to be used.
Nothing is left to chance when it comes to a good stoning in Iran as Article 104 of the Iranian Pe-nal Code actually specifies the size of stones participants should use when, for example, stoning adulterers to death. Evidently the purpose is to increase the suffering of the victim – they don’t like you to die too quickly in Iran.

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:ityj4UpzCyMJ:www.theolivepress.es/PDF/29W.pdf stoning. "size of stone" Islam&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Richard

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:43:00 UTC | #438915

skriv's Avatar Comment 60 by skriv

I'm surprised to find that the the thing that struck me most from the article is not mentioned at all in the comments so far. The second sentence in the article:

Her father and grandfather have since been arrested and are due to face trial over her death.


I'm curious how long it has been since this would have been the case, and what sort of quality of justice we should expect them to receive.

Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:46:00 UTC | #438918