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Calling all Pope Protestors - Comments

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 1 by Steve Zara

My conclusion is that the Nazi remarks were a deliberate attempt to deflect the anticipated protests about the scandal of the child sex abuse cover-ups in the RCC.

I'm sure you are right. This is an important message. The battle has to be fought where they are weakest, and that is child abuse. Johann Hari did a great job on the radio this morning. That certainly seems to be what they are afraid of.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:23:55 UTC | #519431

keithapm's Avatar Comment 2 by keithapm

Very good point, Paula.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:24:17 UTC | #519432

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 3 by mordacious1

Probably good advice Paula. The pope certainly knows which buttons to push.

I'm more concerned with the protestors being cordoned off in small out-of-the-way places where the pope and the media will not see or hear them.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:27:04 UTC | #519435

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 4 by God fearing Atheist

I agree.

Well, I agree that the focus should be child abuse (and AIDS in Africa)

Whether the Nazi slur was deliberate or not is besides the point, though I like Paula's analysis. I might add the Roman "the best form of defence is attack" and observe that the Pope has attacked his atheist/secular enemies. Do we spend effort defending our flank, or press on with an attack against his vulnerable centre?

Updated: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:32:02 UTC | #519439

PrimeNumbers's Avatar Comment 5 by PrimeNumbers

Attack him on child rape and the cover-up of child rape. He knows he's part of the problem there, not the solution.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:45:51 UTC | #519448

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 6 by Stevehill

Well, we have the Daily Heil saying atheists are all extreme lefties and the Pope saying we're all Nazis.

Seems to me we should thank the Pope for telling the Daily Heil they got it wrong.

Seriously, my late atheist father flew Spitfires in WW2 against Ratzi's relatives to help liberate a Europe in which Ratzi was free to express views such as these. For him to pitch up in a country which did more than most to defeat Nazism and start making these sorts of comparisons is personally offensive to me and to my family. This guy is a fuckwit.

And I consider that to be a good thing, as every day he remains in office repels more Catholics from the kind of church he represents.

I nominated him for the National Secular Society's "Secularist of the Year" award last year, but sadly he lost. Maybe this time....

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:53:45 UTC | #519452

wald0h's Avatar Comment 7 by wald0h

I didn't even think about this. The nazi business is all I've been going on about today so the joke's on me I suppose.

Paula makes an excellent point.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:56:03 UTC | #519454

Correct me if I'm wrong's Avatar Comment 8 by Correct me if I'm wrong

Oh, thank you! I've been maddened by this all day, I couldn't understand why he would want to start hurling insults even though he was already under such massive scrutiny. Shame to have been suckered. He made me angry in a way I haven't felt for a while, and with what? Petty insults? I'd been quick to complain about the easy offence taken by them of faith, and then taken a good load of easy offence. Hmm, actually that makes me angry again, devious bastard. Got me twice. Anyway, whether this is a cunning ploy or he really is as incompetent as he appears, it's good to be reminded that it was just nonsense and there are better things to be concerned with. Thanks.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:57:32 UTC | #519456

Frank Sense Myrth's Avatar Comment 9 by Frank Sense Myrth

agreed , there will be time to answer the nonsense he came out with today , but in the meantime keep up the abuse pressure. If I was in the country i would get a placard with the faces of the most hated high profiled paedophiles who are regularly villified in the press,Gary Glitter , Ian Huntely etc and put a X thousands sign on it. Its amazing how people marched in the street demonstrating just on the thought of a paedophile liveing near them but say nothing about the capo di tutti gli cappi of the paedo ring parading around.

Updated: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:59:38 UTC | #519457

Dean Buchanan's Avatar Comment 10 by Dean Buchanan

Vulnerable Center.
Children are vulnerable and they are at the center of most parents lives. Ya feel me?
       Viva Paula!

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:59:12 UTC | #519458

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 11 by Cartomancer

It strikes me that this is a tactic he may well have used before. Anyone remember his "gays are a bigger environmental crisis than deforestation and global warming" speech two years back in South America, or his "The West is too obsessed with wealth and power" speech last year in France? It could well be that he was trying to play on LGBT and environmental feeling on the one hand (very common among South American activists), and anti-capitalist feeling on the other (very common among French activists), to draw attention away from the child abuse scandal.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:59:30 UTC | #519459

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 12 by God fearing Atheist

Can I suggest people spread this in the hope it goes viral.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:03:42 UTC | #519463

man with stick's Avatar Comment 13 by man with stick

I think it was PZ Myers who said the first side to offer up hitler or the nazi's as a form of attack has lost the arguement. Ratty may have played his nazi card too early. Pity, if he weren't meeting up with tony blair he could have used the illegal invasion of iraq as a decoy.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:08:38 UTC | #519465

Richie P's Avatar Comment 14 by Richie P

It's a very interesting analysis Paula, but I am not entirely convinced. I think you might be over analysing this. I think it is probably just a case of the Pope taking another swipe at Atheists simply because he cannot help himself. I don't see any reason for thinking that the government knew about it or had any part to play in it, though I suspect they will be the first people to leap to his defence as usual.

Personally, I think it is just another example of the Pope behaving like a prat. No change there then!

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:10:08 UTC | #519466

Sally Luxmoore's Avatar Comment 15 by Sally Luxmoore

I agree Paula. It struck me as very sinister.

I'd like to stick a huge black white and red banner saying "Gott Mit Uns" on the back of the popemobile.

If any media representatives approach marchers on the subject, perhaps they should suggest that Hitler's moustache, vegetarianism or love of his dogs were the real causes of his vile actions... More succinctly, pointing out that the vast majority of his army were either Catholic or Lutheran would make a good soundbite.

Child rape and condoms for Africa will be my focus, with maybe some vatican mockery thrown in. I think I have recruited my son to help me wave banners and will be happy to share spares with anyone nearby if they're interested!

Updated: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:13:08 UTC | #519467

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 16 by AtheistEgbert

Darth Sidious didn't make me cry. Not yet, anyway...

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:12:46 UTC | #519468

RW Millam's Avatar Comment 17 by RW Millam

Ratzi is saying that atheists are Nazis?

Pot ....... meet kettle.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:15:26 UTC | #519470

Tord M's Avatar Comment 18 by Tord M

I've never liked it when people called the Pope a nazi. Because he is clearly not a nazi, and he is not a "nazi pope".

If someone compares their opponents to the nazis, then that is the final proof that they have lost the debate.

So when mr. Ratzinger today hinted at a connection between atheism and nazism, I took that as a clear sign that The Holy Sea is desperate, out of touch, and clinging to their last resources.

Poor old man!

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:20:03 UTC | #519473

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 19 by AtheistEgbert

@ Paula,

I think his comments about secularism/atheism was to try and justify his refusal to hand over evidence to various national authorities about the abuse scandal. Hence they are 'secular' and can't be trusted.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:31:49 UTC | #519480

Frankus1122's Avatar Comment 20 by Frankus1122

It is all a deflection from the very heart of the problem with this religion and all others: they are institutions built on foundations that are not true.

The idea that the cover up of sex abuse is justified is based on notions of heavenly grace and salvation - not real.

The idea that homosexuality or the use of condoms is a sin is based on ideas that sexuality is necessarily linked to procreation -not true.

All of the silly and dangerous ideas of the pope and other religious folk has falsehood as its foundation.

The the pope is criminal for covering up sexual abuse and should be brought to earthly justice. There is a bigger crime that affects billions of people and that is the propagation of the lie of religion.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:37:04 UTC | #519482

Ygern's Avatar Comment 21 by Ygern

Comment 14 by Richie P

No - Paula is spot on, the church really is that calculating.

Ratzinger of all people knows better than to say what he did today. Simple fact-checking would prove to anyone that he was wrong, and in his case, he was a young but not too young to understand lad in Germany during the rise of the Nazi party. So he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that his words were utterly inaccurate and wholly slanderous.

It was a deliberate ploy to shift people's attention from the real issues. If it gets some people hating secularists, even better. But that would be a long shot as most people in the UK are secularists of a sort anyway. That wasn't really the point of his talk. This was pure deflection and distraction. While everyone was thinking about Nazis and death-camps, no-one was thinking about raped children, vilified gays and misogyny.

This is simply a version of that old adage: the best form of defense is attack.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:41:54 UTC | #519484

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 22 by Bernard Hurley

This is what I was thinking when I said somewhere on this site that he was being deliberately inflammatory. The paragraph itself is very cleverly worded:

Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny” (Caritas in Veritate, 29).

To the casual reader or listener it sounds like he is recalling the "good old days" when we were all comrades in arms. He doesn't actually say "all atheists are Nazis". Instead he says "As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God,..." Now this sounds like a prayer. Compare with some real prayers:

As we reflect on Easter, with so much to be thankful for, is it too much to ask that..

As we reflect on the 9/11 tragedy tomorrow, please take time to pray for and support those affected in San Bruno

As we reflect on the life and legacy of King, we are reminded of his extraordinary compassion toward the poor.

Most people turn their brains off when they pray or hear prayers and it is culturally acceptable to say outrageous things within prayers. So I would wager that many people will not realise that he is calling atheists Nazis, even if this passage is repeated to them and the implication spelled out to them. However he knows many atheists will see it immediately. So not only does making a fuss about this deflect from the issue of child abuse it will be seen by many as "kicking up a fuss about nothing".

My take on this is that I would be somewhat disappointed if the Pope didn't call me a Nazi. At least we know where we are and I won't feel guilty about hurting his feelings.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:41:57 UTC | #519485

JamesR's Avatar Comment 23 by JamesR

I have heard it before that silence is the only ffitting answer to a fool Why dont all you protesters show up and turn your back to him. get as many of your like minded citizens who think this is just an asshole riding through, Show upp and have your backs turned to him. Also get video.

Thu, 16 Sep 2010 23:53:29 UTC | #519489

Vlada's Avatar Comment 24 by Vlada

I'm told from my grandfather about an interesting detail related to crucifixes in schools in the Protectorate of Bohemia in 1942. He told me that there were no crucifixes in classrooms in elementary schools until Nazis unleashed ultimate terror on Czech people after the paratroopers organized from Britain had taken care of Reinhard Heydrich - the beast #2 in the 3rd Reich. It could be that since then every school was endowed with the crucifixes. Also he remembers the belt buckles of Nazi soldiers inscribed with "Gott mit uns".

Fri, 17 Sep 2010 00:01:02 UTC | #519494

James_g_vm's Avatar Comment 25 by James_g_vm

What happened to the plan to arrest the pope? I was hoping papers would be served by now. This would support the urgency of the child abuse issue over the idiotic nazi remark.

Fri, 17 Sep 2010 00:26:50 UTC | #519504

Drosera's Avatar Comment 26 by Drosera

I propose the following slogan:

Hey, Ratzi! Leave our kids alone!

Fri, 17 Sep 2010 00:50:18 UTC | #519513

Fouad Boussetta's Avatar Comment 27 by Fouad Boussetta

Paula Kirby has it exactly right: the Pope wants us to switch from offensive to defensive modes. Cunning old Nazi.

Updated: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:08:56 UTC | #519520

Todd Stiefel's Avatar Comment 28 by Todd Stiefel

Well said, Paula.

Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:04:42 UTC | #519521

Fouad Boussetta's Avatar Comment 29 by Fouad Boussetta

Comment 26 by Drosera

I propose the following slogan: Hey, Ratzi! Leave our kids alone!

Yeah. Ratzi the Nazi, Grand Protector of the Pedophiles...

Updated: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:31:55 UTC | #519529

Fouad Boussetta's Avatar Comment 30 by Fouad Boussetta

,,,

Updated: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:32:22 UTC | #519531