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Forgotten Dreams? - Comments

KRKBAB's Avatar Comment 1 by KRKBAB

And of course this article is written by one of those "New Atheists" with no sense of wonder and awe! :) Whenever I feel dismayed at the mind numbing religiosity and ignorance of the American citizenry, people like Lawrence Krauss remind me that there are many outstanding Americans to be proud of.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:35:53 UTC | #549834

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 2 by mordacious1

I see accommodationism is well represented in the comments following the article.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 14:58:07 UTC | #549841

crookedshoes's Avatar Comment 3 by crookedshoes

Ignorance of one's own ignorance is truly the plight of the ignorant. The lament at the bottom of the OP (the paragraph opens with Richard's name).

Do you think it is "better" to be bright and aware and sort of pissed all the time OR blissfully unaware????

PS. i saw Lawrence Krause on an excellent program on pbs. I think it was called "How the universe works" and it had lots of great stuff about black holes.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:28:15 UTC | #549867

The Plc's Avatar Comment 4 by The Plc

Lawrence Krauss is a New Athiest? I thought he sided with the accommodationalists - he's criticised Dawkins in the past for his blunt and frank speaking approach to science education in interviews I've heard with him.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:34:14 UTC | #549875

KRKBAB's Avatar Comment 5 by KRKBAB

Comment 4 by The Plc- I have him squarely in the New Atheist realm. I can't imagine Lawrence Krauss not having a hard time with the likes of Robert Wright.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:40:50 UTC | #549884

KRKBAB's Avatar Comment 6 by KRKBAB

There's also this from L.K.s wikipedia page: "Krauss is also a critic of string theory, which he takes on in his 2005 book, Hiding in the Mirror"

gotta love that! String theory always sounds like real smart people seeking until they find just a little too hard.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:44:36 UTC | #549892

Dean Buchanan's Avatar Comment 7 by Dean Buchanan

@Comment 2 by mordacious1

I saw that too. Was there a talking point memo sent out to accomodationists? They always include: 'You'll never convince anyone by telling them that they are wrong! And, holy jebus, don't mention Richard Dawkins! The religious folk were so helpful to science before that man showed up.'

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:19:01 UTC | #549919

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 8 by AtheistEgbert

Comment by aposl3pol:

As the son of an Evangelical pastor who's always been interested in science, the message of this article resonates with me. It took me 10 years to get past the mental trappings that were instilled in me from childhood, to get to the point that I would go back to college to study physics and astronomy (which I'm now doing.)

I think it would be wiser, however, to leave the Dawkins quotes out, and maybe put Francis Collins in instead. Preaching atheism isn't going to win the hearts of Americans. What needs revision is the way we interpret sacred texts; that the message of these writings will continue to stand even if they aren't accurate in every historical detail. Our faith rests not on their essence, rather than the literal historicity of every detail.

I don't think that atheism will eventually triumph over religion, but that we'll see another sort of Copernican revolution, where after all is said and done, faith will emerge clarified and simplified. This process is certainly in agreement with the teachings of Christ.

It took aposl13pol ten years to breakdown his family's closed-minded dogma, but he still believes science and religion are friends! Dawkins would more likely win the hearts of Americans if given sufficient exposure, much like Gordon Ramsey wins the hearts of Americans for being so plain and blunt. Sorry, but you will gain more respect by saying honestly that 'you're stupid and ignorant and here's why' than pretend away that Americans are sufficiently educated. Believing the earth is only 6,000 years old is plain stupid and I don't care if that upsets your feelings.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 18:01:42 UTC | #549999

huzonfurst's Avatar Comment 9 by huzonfurst

The tone trolls on the SciAm site seem not to have gotten the memo that accomodationism doesn't work and never has. They've obviously never heard Dawkins speak, that's for damn sure.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:06:16 UTC | #550041

Ygern's Avatar Comment 10 by Ygern

Lawrence Krauss isn't exactly an accommodationist. He has always been a vocal and passionate critic of nonsense, woo and pseudo-science.

And he was a guest speaker at the AAI conference where he gave his excellent talk "A universe from nothing". If you watch the video, you will see Richard & him explain their differences and they are now good friends. It kind of places him in our camp :)

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 20:23:33 UTC | #550096

Paul42's Avatar Comment 11 by Paul42

Great article...

Coincidentally, I've just watched this...

Love.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 20:27:00 UTC | #550098

bluebird's Avatar Comment 12 by bluebird

♥Krauss 4 Prez - 2012♥

Since he no longer has printed articles in SciAm, it's good to know he's a guest blogger.

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 21:17:30 UTC | #550125

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 13 by Stafford Gordon

I wish I'd said all that!

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 21:54:15 UTC | #550144

quarecuss's Avatar Comment 14 by quarecuss

@ Comment 4 by The Plc

Lawrence Krauss is a New Atheist? I thought he sided with the accommodationists<

So did I, to a slight extent, based on this SciAm article of 3 years ago but when it comes down to it, he and Dawkins are not too far apart.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=should-science-speak-to-faith

Krauss enjoys, as much as anyone, jibes at creationists. His physics lectures include numerous sly jokes about religion, though I doubt you'd find him speaking at a rally protesting the Pope or calling burquas bin liners! It's good to see him quoting Dawkins like this. There are no cosmologists as such, in the Horsemen. We need Krauss and Hawking to mount up too!

Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:36:42 UTC | #550161

El Bastardo's Avatar Comment 15 by El Bastardo

Rachel Maddow recently mad e the point on her show that "it is true that these things have been said, but that doesn't mean what has been said is true". It's still on the site, 17th Nov, section listed as "Reporting absent, "Publicity" re-writes history"

Reading the comments of the site above it's screams that Dawkins is divisive, Dawkins is shrill, Atheism will never win over religion, accommodationism is the way forward, science can never disprove the love of Jebus, oh FFS.

To me, this ties into the whole "you aren't reaching the minorities" argument levelled against atheists of latee. As if there aren't atheists in ever country in the world (see the multiple links on P.Z. Myers blog of late) but atheist should be seen to want tokens on the ranks to show how tokeny we are.

Will they ever get that Atheism isn't a group, an ideology, a campaign? No one want to "win the hearts of Americans" or win the hearts of anyone. The truth is the truth is the truth. All I want (and I don't claim to speak for anyone else) is for people to see the facts and acknowledge the facts.

The cold truth is better than a warm lie.

Evolution is real, the big bang happened and Picard was better than Kirk, deal with it.

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:01:46 UTC | #550187

jameshogg's Avatar Comment 16 by jameshogg

It took aposl13pol ten years to breakdown his family's closed-minded dogma, but he still believes science and religion are friends! Dawkins would more likely win the hearts of Americans if given sufficient exposure, much like Gordon Ramsey wins the hearts of Americans for being so plain and blunt. Sorry, but you will gain more respect by saying honestly that 'you're stupid and ignorant and here's why' than pretend away that Americans are sufficiently educated. Believing the earth is only 6,000 years old is plain stupid and I don't care if that upsets your feelings.

'You're stupid and ignorant, and here's why'

Brilliant promotion of science there. Carl Sagan would be proud.

I'll be sure to say that to the next person I see who is learning how to drive as a way of encouraging them to do better.

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 01:11:07 UTC | #550207

Fuzzy Duck's Avatar Comment 17 by Fuzzy Duck

Oddly enough, I sat by Prof. Krauss that evening at DOC NYC and talked with him (and met Herzog that evening, too! Not to brag, or anything...). Glad to know a real man of science enjoyed and was similarly chilled by Herzog's latest film.

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 01:27:53 UTC | #550214

DocWebster's Avatar Comment 18 by DocWebster

I've watched The Universe from Nothing and the talk between Profs. Krauss and Dawkins that came out a few years ago and I never once thought he was anything but an atheist. Lately I've come across a talk he did outside some creation museum in the south somewhere (I think the same one PZ Meyers visited) and he's definitely anti-religion as far as education goes which is certainly where Dawkins stands.

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 04:36:24 UTC | #550256

BanJoIvie's Avatar Comment 19 by BanJoIvie

Another wonderful article from Professor Krauss. However, a few pictures of the "haunting and remarkable 32,000-year-old drawings" would be nice. I'd also have appreciated a mention that the site in question is the chauvet cave in southern France.

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:08:12 UTC | #550528

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 20 by xmaseveeve

I am very wary about this word, 'accommodationist'. I don't care what people believe, and I know that the more you explain facts to them, the tighter they draw their overcoats of belief, bearing whatever badge of their particular brand of indoctrination. We must not forget that they have been indoctrinated.

I just want them to keep it out of schools and governments.

Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:48:13 UTC | #550644