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← Violating Cardinal Newman's wishes

Violating Cardinal Newman's wishes - Comments

Alan Baxter's Avatar Comment 1 by Alan Baxter

This article is over 1 1/2 years old. Why is it being exhumed now? Dates matter.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:13:00 UTC | #463057

sara g's Avatar Comment 2 by sara g

It's being brought up now because it is being discussed on another thread.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:14:00 UTC | #463059

sara g's Avatar Comment 3 by sara g

So two gay adults in love are so obnoxious that thier burial wishes must be violated more than a century after the fact? Perhaps if they are looking for a miracle to attribute to Newman, they could consider that he managed to make his body decompose before they could exhume it against his wishes.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:20:00 UTC | #463061

Quetzalcoatl's Avatar Comment 4 by Quetzalcoatl

Alan Baxter-

It's relevant because the Pope is planning to canonise Cardinal Newman when he visits the UK later this year. What exactly he'll be canonising is unclear given that there were no remains in the grave when it was excavated apart from some jewellery.....

Apparently though a miracle has been attributed to Newman, which is why he is being canonised. A deacon in America apparently prayed to Newman and lo and behold his spinal cord problems were cured!

No, I'm quite serious.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:26:00 UTC | #463062

Alan Baxter's Avatar Comment 5 by Alan Baxter

Thank you for the clarifications, sillygirl and Quetzalcoatl. Old stuff has popped up here before when the poster hadn't looked at the date. I thought that may have happened again. (And often commenters don't seem to realize how old an article is.)

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:47:00 UTC | #463066

LWS's Avatar Comment 6 by LWS

October 2008:

No body in exhumed Newman's grave
"Newman's body may have decomposed, as his coffin was not lead-lined. Its absence will not affect the progress of his cause in Rome, a spokesman said.

Permission for the exhumation was given by the Ministry of Justice, said Peter Jennings from the Fathers of the Birmingham Oratory"

What talisman can be made out of a few bits of cloth then?

"It is investigating a claim that Jack Sullivan, a deacon from Boston, Massachusetts, was cured of a serious spinal disease after praying to the cardinal. " Another case of medical mis-diagnosis IMO

Also what about Ratzinger's aid?

"Houston's Daniel Shea (lawyer & theologian & literate in Latin) thinks Joseph Ratzinger has a lot to answer for if he'd talk."

This is the best bit about Mr. Ratzinger that I personally found amusing:

talking about Ratzinger Shea asks " 'Who the hell is he trying to kid? This guy wears enough gold lamé in all of his vestments to suit up three New York drag queens. And furthermore, he's given drag queens a bad name. I mean, look at his Palm Sunday vestments. They're supposed to be red, but his are so gold-encrusted you can barely see the red. He's got Gucci shoes and Prada glasses, and have you seen the boyfriend? He's a hunk — a German tennis player and a jet fighter pilot, Gorgeous Georg. I've never seen a bishop who didn't have an extraordinarily handsome private secretary."

Who protests too much then?

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:14:00 UTC | #463081

Ron Millam's Avatar Comment 7 by Ron Millam

6. Comment #483856 by LWS on April 26, 2010 at 5:14 pm

"It is investigating a claim that Jack Sullivan, a deacon from Boston, Massachusetts, was cured of a serious spinal disease after praying to the cardinal. "

Last winter I prayed to Robert De Niro and 10 days later my cold was cured. Where to I write to nominate him for sainthood?

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:31:00 UTC | #463088

mordacious1's Avatar Comment 8 by mordacious1


After reading your link, I'd say that Daniel Shea is my kind of guy. Hard to enjoy those gold-enlayed robes when you have a pitbull chewing on your ass.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:34:00 UTC | #463089

Quine's Avatar Comment 9 by Quine

"It is investigating a claim that Jack Sullivan, a deacon from Boston, Massachusetts, was cured of a serious spinal disease after praying to the cardinal. "
Something tells me they did not, also, do a study of how many died of a serious disease after praying to the cardinal.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:41:00 UTC | #463092

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 10 by Cartomancer

I am no expert on the decomposition of corpses, but if it is indeed true that Cardinal Newman's has pretty much entirely decomposed by now, then I'm not sure there's much the Vatican can do to exhume him. The constituent parts of his body have long since mingled with those of Ambrose St. John, and spread back into the biomass of the local ecosystem.

Which means it's just an attempt to conceal his likely homosexuality that we have to deal with. And historians of LGBT issues will surely not put up with letting that slip by unnoticed.

That's the problem with trying to mess with history - we historians are the ones who decide how you're going to be remembered once you're dead.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:41:00 UTC | #463093

LWS's Avatar Comment 12 by LWS

People do not want to accept that they will achieve exactly the same results praying to a pet rock as to Jesus.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:50:00 UTC | #463096

sara g's Avatar Comment 11 by sara g

Somewhere (in the last couple hours, but I already forget where) I read that all that was left was a handful of jewelry.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:50:00 UTC | #463095

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 13 by SaintStephen

4. Comment #483837 by Quetzalcoatl on April 26, 2010 at 4:26 pm

Apparently though a miracle has been attributed to Newman, which is why he is being canonised. A deacon in America apparently prayed to Newman and lo and behold his spinal cord problems were cured!
I did not know this. LOL. Newman was a spiritual chiropracter, apparently. The possibilities seem endless!

Having trouble picking up the morning paper are we? Just whisper a little prayer to Saint Spinecracker and rejoice, as your jowls will literally collide with your kneecaps, and you will view the world, temporarily at least, from an entirely new, albeit upside-down vantage point.

Unless Simon Singh weighs in soon, I'm backing this canonization.


Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:53:00 UTC | #463097

Eventhorizon's Avatar Comment 14 by Eventhorizon

The church wants to start digging up bodies now? How much more depraved can these rabid old virgins get? No really, Im asking!

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:58:00 UTC | #463099

Rikitiki13's Avatar Comment 15 by Rikitiki13

Sooo...lemme get this straight (no pun intended):
The Catholic Church vehemently disagrees with homosexuality and is looking to canonize a homosexual£
...yep, you couldn't make this stuff up.

Carto: go get 'em! Historically, that is(laughing hysterically all the way).

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:13:00 UTC | #463100

Rikitiki13's Avatar Comment 16 by Rikitiki13

Re: Eventhorizon:
"How much more depraved can these rabid old virgins get£ No really, Im asking!"

Well, they could eat the flesh of their dead and drink their blood as well...oh, wait!

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:15:00 UTC | #463101

flying goose's Avatar Comment 17 by flying goose

he is actually being beatified.

I wonder whether religious orders may have been 'sheltering' Homosexuals for centuries. Aelred may be an example of this.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:20:00 UTC | #463103

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 18 by HughCaldwell

If Ambrose St John and Cardinal Newman have coalesced in the grave, they should get a joint sainthood. It's only fair.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:22:00 UTC | #463104

God fearing Atheist's Avatar Comment 19 by God fearing Atheist

This is modern politics.

No atheist worries about where they will be buried. By the time their body is buried there won't be a mind left to worry. The only concern should be for relatives. Detailing burial arrangements reduces their stress. But 118 years later, there won't be many stressed relatives left.

I have no idea if Tatchell believes in an afterlife, if so, then I guess it does mean something to him, but it shouldn't concern atheists.

The issue is homophobia, and cover ups, in the RCC. They should be taken to task for that.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:32:00 UTC | #463106

crookedshoes's Avatar Comment 20 by crookedshoes

How can they even look at themselves in the mirror? The condemnation of homosexuality going on simultaneously with the cannonization of a homosexual. The contradiction in everything they do is so, so off putting.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:37:00 UTC | #463109

glenister_m's Avatar Comment 21 by glenister_m

What is the interest in a decaying/ed corpse by the religious anyway£ If the body is just a vessel for the soul, then the soul is the important piece that you would pray to/for anyway. Like being getting upset at throwing away the wrapping paper after the gift has been opened - burial/cremation/etc. is just recycling.

Personally I'd like to cause some amusement/entertainment after I'm dead. I'd like to be preserved or plasticized (in a sitting position) so that I could be stored in the attic and brought down for special occasions like Hallowe-en (to scare the kids) or family events (if I knew I didn't have long to live, I'd make some recordings for my kids, etc. to wish them well on birthdays/graduations/weddings, etc.). Irish wake all the way, and if I must be buried I'd like my gravestone to say "I'll get you for this! I'm getting better!"

Anyway if they do move the remains perhaps those that made the decision will find that their remains aren't left to rest after they are gone. Karma£

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:39:00 UTC | #463110

Eventhorizon's Avatar Comment 22 by Eventhorizon

well, quite

This is surely verging on insanity though - digging up cadavers? The cult of catholicism goes on getting wierder

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:42:00 UTC | #463112

mlgatheist's Avatar Comment 24 by mlgatheist

Interesting, I seem to recall the current pope blamed the current rash of child sexual abuse cases on homosexuals in the priesthood and had stated that they would weed them out (paraphrasing).

So while it is not okay to be a living homosexual, it is okay to be a dead one and one that appears to be working with god to perform miracles.

If god is against homosexuals why would he be working with one£ Or is the stories true about jesus, he told mary m. to stop having sex and was usually seen travelling with 12 young men.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:43:00 UTC | #463115

kev_s's Avatar Comment 23 by kev_s

They are interested in the corpse because saints make money. Put the remains in a pot and take collections when people pray to it. This is just business, nothing else.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:43:00 UTC | #463114

SaintStephen's Avatar Comment 25 by SaintStephen

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh.

Cardinal Newman's miracle might have encompassed all Catholic clergymen, literally transforming/devolving their stiff spines back to primitive, flexible notochords.

Which explains perfectly why modern Catholic priests are able to stick their collective heads so far up their collective arses.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:10:00 UTC | #463128

Stella's Avatar Comment 26 by Stella

A saint? Really?

'In 1863 in a response to Thomas William Allies, while agreeing that slavery was bad, he could not condemn it as "intrinsically evil" as it had been tolerated by St Paul—asserting that slavery is "a condition of life ordained by God in the same sense that other conditions of life are."'

-John Noonan, 'A Church That Can and Cannot Change', 2005, via Wiki

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:53:00 UTC | #463146

jcob82's Avatar Comment 27 by jcob82

Another example of homophobia and denigration of homosexuals by the church.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:08:00 UTC | #463150

seals's Avatar Comment 28 by seals

Ew, this is all too sick, depraved, and creepy - the church preying on the dead. Especially as next thing, they'll be hypocritically lecturing everyone about the dangers of the occult.

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:30:00 UTC | #463157

fsm1965's Avatar Comment 29 by fsm1965

I would say "You couldn't make it up!!", but obviously you can.

This is obviously more about politics/economics than reality...

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:31:00 UTC | #463158

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 30 by Cartomancer

actually, though most people know this already, the catholic church has a very long and venerable history of mucking about in the coffins of the deceased. It is far from a novelty to find them conducting pious exhumations to more auspicious sites. During the central Middle Ages the cult of saints' relics was at its height, and you were quite simply nobody if you didn't have at least two pieces of the true cross, half a pint of christ's blood and a head of John the Baptist to your name. Many, many saints' corpses were exhumed and re-buried (when they weren't broken up for tourist trinkets), and even the bones of regular people were collected up from the churchyards at regular intervals, and reinterred in the Charnel House with great reverence. Certain peoples in Eastern Europe even built great churches and cathedral interiors from the bones of the dead, such as the macabre Sedlec Ossuary in Prague.

Of course, the rest of European society has moved on from this kind of primitive necromancy and superstitious focal magic in the intervening centuries...

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:46:00 UTC | #463163