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← Some zealots have skewed view of heroism

Some zealots have skewed view of heroism - Comments

The Plc's Avatar Comment 1 by The Plc

It is heartening to see the fiery blowback inspired by the essay. Rebukes came from all over the religious spectrum, including other religious conservatives who understand that putting a sword in Jesus' hand is an insult to the foundations of their faith.

Huh?

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" - Matthew 10:34

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 21:55:52 UTC | #552730

Carl Sai Baba's Avatar Comment 2 by Carl Sai Baba

"the feminization of the medal of honor."

Modern Abrahamians may be straying a bit, but it must be reassuring to someone to know that they still hate women.

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:08:30 UTC | #552736

Didaktylos's Avatar Comment 3 by Didaktylos

Here is a link to a poem celebrating what heroism in battle truly is:HOW RIFLEMAN BROWN CAME TO VALHALLA

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:09:01 UTC | #552737

ZenDruid's Avatar Comment 4 by ZenDruid

More comments...

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:11:46 UTC | #552741

Ivan The Not So Bad's Avatar Comment 5 by Ivan The Not So Bad

More on the American Family Association from:

Wikipedia

And this week in the excellent Secular Daily News

Basically, another bunch of loons with a gay-obsession.

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:23:46 UTC | #552745

root2squared's Avatar Comment 6 by root2squared

the feminization of the Medal of Honor.

Haha. Did they paint it pink?

Btw, all these soldiers should be grateful there's no justice, else they'd be in jail for participating in war crimes instead of receiving a medal.

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:26:31 UTC | #552747

Corylus's Avatar Comment 7 by Corylus

.

.

Behold the manly mesomorph
Showing his bulging biceps off,
Whom social workers love to touch,
Though the loveliest girls do not care for him much.

Pretty to watch with bat or ball,
An Achilles, too, in a bar-room brawl,
But in the ditch of hopeless odds,
The hour of desertion by brass and gods,

Not a hero. It is the pink-and-white,
Fastidious, almost girlish in the night
When the proud-arsed broad-shouldered break and run,
Who covers their retreat, dies at his gun.

W. H. Auden

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:31:14 UTC | #552752

Philoctetes                                        's Avatar Comment 8 by Philoctetes

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:56:58 UTC | #552763

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 9 by Neodarwinian

It is obvious that this moron does not know a thing about how this medal is usually awarded. Posthumously and for self sacrifice. This is not a medal, such as The Silver Star, that is awarded, generally, for aggression in combat.

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 23:03:42 UTC | #552768

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 10 by Stevehill

With one profoundly insightful line, Mr. Allen demonstrated...

I don't want to bang an anti-American drum particularly, but is this what passes for serious commentary in the US these days?

Profoundly insightful? It's just common sense. Seriously, if you asked the British people what they think Jesus would think of the way we all behave if he came back today, I'd guess 80% would say he'd be sickened. That's how "profound" it is.

Most of us recognise that organised religion - especially organised religion with tax breaks - has bugger all to do with anything Jesus taught.

(I am prepared personally to believe in the historical existence of a man called Jesus who sometimes had some pretty cool, hippy ideas).

P.S. What is the post-Nuremburg status of soldiers who do not refuse to obey orders to fight an illegal war?

Wed, 24 Nov 2010 23:13:38 UTC | #552770

chawinwords's Avatar Comment 11 by chawinwords

Ah yes, there initially the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount (compassion, empathy, and social justice). Followed by the Jesus that threw the Wall Street bankers and traders of his time out of the temple. Followed by the Jesus who so upset the preachers of his day, accusing them of getting in bed with those bankers and traders, and high lighting their own sinfulness with the words, "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone."

However there is another Jesus, the warrior Jesus that was demanded by Judas Iscariot, that was championed by Hitler in his famous book and speeches, and that is embraced by so many Judas Iscariot Christian followers of today.

The questions: "What would Jesus do" and "What would Jesus buy" are the wrong questions. The correct question would be: If the same, likely dark skinned Jesus returned today and preached the same Sermon on the Mount and threw the corrupt Judas Iscariot moneyed preachers out of the temple -- then how long would it take them to crucify Jesus again?

I would advise him to stay away from the great corporations, Wall Street goons, and the southern Bible belt fundamentalists Christians of America and, away from whereever they have migrated in large numbers to across the U.S. of A.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:18:01 UTC | #552802

mmurray's Avatar Comment 12 by mmurray

Comment 11 by chawinwords :

Followed by the Jesus who so upset the preachers of his day, ... "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone."

This is widely acknowledged by biblical scholars to be a later addition to the bible. So if there was a historical Jesus he didn't say this.

Michael

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:20:45 UTC | #552804

Hamilton Jacobi's Avatar Comment 13 by Hamilton Jacobi

What??!! Has this journalist never met General JC Christian, Patriot?

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:24:43 UTC | #552807

chawinwords's Avatar Comment 14 by chawinwords

This is widely acknowledged by biblical scholars to be a later addition to the bible. So if there was a historical Jesus he didn't say this.

Michael

Michael, if your claim is so, then what happens to the claim that the Bible is the devinely inspired, absolute, and inerrant word of God?

B.S. today is the same as B.S. in all ages. When someone says, "biblical scholars," I laugh!

However, biblical scholars have long had their cake and the appetite for the same cake. I believe it is called circular reasoning; the stories in the Bible are true because the Bible says the stories are true!!!

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:38:07 UTC | #552812

SoHelpMeReason's Avatar Comment 15 by SoHelpMeReason

"... the AFA usually busies itself organizing boycotts against pornography, homosexual "friendly" institutions, Islam and "godless" television programming."

I think the government should begin requiring that in order for religious institutions to keep their tax exemptions, they should have to have at least three organized bingo or arts and crafts nights a week.

Clearly, like children, if we allow them to get bored they get restless and waste our time.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:45:53 UTC | #552819

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 16 by Cartomancer

Sigh... I do wish these religious people would take a minute to see their witless blatherings in their extensive historical context.

What constitutes true heroism in war is one of the oldest themes in literature - full, complex and problematic when the Iliad was first committed to paper. Heck, even when the Epic of Gilgamesh was first pressed into clay. The uncritical veneration of bloodthirsty bronze-age warlords was crude and untenable two and a half millennia ago. Homer's Hector and Achilles put the final nail in that coffin, and warfare, society and ethics have advanced exponentially since then.

This is what gets me most about the religious mindset - the sheer, jaw-dropping ahistoricity it breeds. Part of which, I have to add, is the perpetuation of outdated and harmful gender stereotyping. We've come so far beyond even the 1950s, how narrow the mind that would seek to return us to the ethics of the 1950s BC.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:05:29 UTC | #552829

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 17 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 11 by chawinwords

"Ye who is without sin cast the first stone."

From the Gospel according to John...the story of the woman taken in adultery. It's a 5th century insert not found in any of the original Greek texts. Michael meant to say historicalbiblical scholars, not to be confused with theological scholars. They are historians in the full sense of the word, who devout their time to verifying the biblical texts. The best part is, they have been verifying the texts as lies, deceit, forgery, mistranslation and contradiction. Something that is well known to the preachers as they are taught the truth in seminary, but the man in the pew is in the mushroom club....sort of like being outside the Masonic order.

Michael, if your claim is so, then what happens to the claim that the Bible is the devinely inspired, absolute, and inerrant word of God?

Exactly, the establishment know it can't be so, all but the most evangelical preachers know it's all a load of man made cobblers, but they are hardly going to admit it to Joe Bloggs in the street and do themselves out of a job. The four anonymous gospels, because the authors are not known, tell four different stories, they can't all be true....of course non of them are true, but that's besides the point.

The woman taken in adultry.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:21:18 UTC | #552839

RJMoore's Avatar Comment 18 by RJMoore

Ignorant Amos. Ive been searching in vain in every bookstore in Dublin for Misquoting Jesus, so I finally had to admit defeat and order it from Amazon today. Someone happened to mention to me a presentation Ehrman gave in Stanford Univ, and I watched it on Youtube today; it seems like he touches on the main findings of the book in the presentation. I was a bit punchdrunk after watching it (maybe thats a bit strong!), and I took out my own bible and read each gospel "horizontally", as Ehrman suggested, from the condemnation by Pilate until the resurrection. I knew there would be differences, but I didnt realise how great those differences actually were. The addition to Mark you spoke of, the last verses, dont even feel as though the person who wrote them actually believed them; its as though someone said, "gosh, we better come up with an ending to tie up the details; get something down on paper, quick". Ive showed this to a few Catholics today, and they were all a bit flabbergasted, to be honest. I think the sneaking suspicions that middle ground believers have in their minds that something might not be right with their belief in the Bible would be confirmed by actually doing what I did today. I wonder how people who actually study this stuff in university square the circle in their minds.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 02:11:28 UTC | #552860

mmurray's Avatar Comment 19 by mmurray

Comment 14 by chawinwords :

B.S. today is the same as B.S. in all ages. When someone says, "biblical scholars," I laugh!

Sorry, as Ignorant Amos said, I meant people who apply proper historical methods to studying the bible not the kind how use it to bolster their pre-existing beliefs.

Michael

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 02:22:12 UTC | #552865

mmurray's Avatar Comment 20 by mmurray

Comment 18 by sunrise :

I wonder how people who actually study this stuff in university square the circle in their minds.

You can get some some idea from this study of Dan Dennetts on religious who lose their faith while training. It's answering a slightly different question. I hope you enjoy Ehrman's book.

Michael

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 02:26:57 UTC | #552866

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 21 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 18 by sunrise

The book will blow you away....and I recommend Ehrmans, Jesus:Interupted as a follow up. There is also a set of 10 lectures I might recommend, each approximately 1 hour 40 minutes long entitled "Historical Jesus" from Stanford University by Thomas Sheehan and is free to download at:- http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/historical-jesus/id384233911

I wonder how people who actually study this stuff in university square the circle in their minds.

My point exactly. This very notion might well be answered in the research Dan Dennett is doing about godless clergy, which is interesting if ya missed it, there's also an accompanying pdf. paper available for download which also makes for interesting reading. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but given what I've read and listened to recently, I've gotta say, the whole thing is one big stroke and the clergy know fine well. Either that or they are so blinkered that there is no hope. The people in the street should know this stuff and be allowed to follow their own instincts. I felt like such a fool for not knowing it myself until recently, it's not like the secret has been all that well hidden, it's there if you take a look.

Anyway, enjoy your book when you get it.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 02:54:27 UTC | #552872

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 22 by Ignorant Amos

Michael....beat me to it lol

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 02:56:53 UTC | #552874

RJMoore's Avatar Comment 23 by RJMoore

Michael and IgnorantAmos. Many thanks for the link. Great minds....!!

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:05:07 UTC | #552876

darksmiles22's Avatar Comment 24 by darksmiles22

A lot of people think that truth is hard to keep hidden, because if it were discovered it would be plastered all over the news and those who were mistaken would hang their heads in shame, apologize, and diminish. Trouble is that mistaken leaders rarely acknowledge that they were wrong, followers trust their leaders, and in a week the whole thing is blown over and rarely brought up ever again as it thereafter becomes "old news."

Thus myths perpetuate despite conclusive evidence they are false. Read or watch anything by Noam Chomsky for a fascinating debunking of American Exceptionalism.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:40:13 UTC | #552879

RJMoore's Avatar Comment 25 by RJMoore

Darksmiles22. Yes, youre probably right; people generally do get on with things, even over matters that seem very grave at the time. I remember seeing RD interviewing a priest about evolution (I think the interview was done in a church). The priest accepted evolution fully, and I remember wondering is this man just afraid to take the next step away from belief. Maybe this priest's faith was fully intact, but it must be hard, I suppose, for any priest to admit his vocation has been based on nothing but superstition and tradition, leaving aside any good works you might have done. This goes to your point. There must be clerics who no longer believe; their knowledge of biblical inconsistancies etc. would be greater than that of the average person. I suppose there are a variety of motivations for soldiering on, as shown in the link above, but I suspect the fear of admitting you were duped is the most compelling motivation of all, especially for CC clergy, who have even sacrificed a family life for their vocation.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 04:22:38 UTC | #552885

Narvi's Avatar Comment 26 by Narvi

"Like Judas, they pilfer the common purse, express annoyance at the generosity of others"

Ehm... No. Just no.

If he'd actually read the Bible, he'd realize that Judas was upset over the WASTEFULNESS of others, spending money on creams and salves when they should have been feeding the poor. Jesus replied; "You'll always have poor people, but I won't be here long."

If you want to criticize modern Christians, fine, go ahead, but don't compare them to the ONE compassionate person in that circus troupe.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 06:02:20 UTC | #552893

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 27 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 26 by Narvi

If you want to criticize modern Christians, fine, go ahead, but don't compare them to the ONE compassionate person in that circus troupe.

Who? Who is this ONE compassionate person you speak of?

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 06:09:10 UTC | #552894

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 28 by Stafford Gordon

Religion regressing to the norm.

What's a "barf bag"?

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:29:17 UTC | #552918

mmurray's Avatar Comment 29 by mmurray

Comment 28 by Stafford Gordon :

Religion regressing to the norm.

What's a "barf bag"?

Barf is American for vomit. So a vomit bag. Like the ones you get in the seat pocket on an airline.

Michael

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:34:17 UTC | #552921

sbooder's Avatar Comment 30 by sbooder

Comment 12 by mmurray :

Comment 11 by chawinwords :

Followed by the Jesus who so upset the preachers of his day, ... "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone."

This is widely acknowledged by biblical scholars to be a later addition to the bible. So if there was a historical Jesus he didn't say this.

Michael

You speak as if the rest of the bible was written in one go with a few additions chucked in later. This is not the case, the bible as it stands today was written over centuries, and even in its current form has omissions of complete gospels.

Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:38:02 UTC | #552923