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← Pope paves way to beatification of John Paul II

Pope paves way to beatification of John Paul II - Comments

Rodger T's Avatar Comment 1 by Rodger T

I would be a little more impressed if he had cured his priests of their penchant for paedophilia in the 27 years he had the top job, but I guess that will take more than a miracle.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:19:26 UTC | #578653

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 2 by Neodarwinian

Saw this on my Fire Fox latest headline list. Did not read it as I accounted it nothing worth reading. As usual, made up stuff to get a saint made that you could do just by doing it. Justifications for delusions.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:21:31 UTC | #578654

Cosmicshore's Avatar Comment 3 by Cosmicshore

I'm sure the pope visits a lot of sick people in hospitals - it's just an easy way to increase the odds of someone getting better - giving the illusion of a miracle.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:27:11 UTC | #578656

mmurray's Avatar Comment 4 by mmurray

Comment 3 by Cosmicshore :

I'm sure the pope visits a lot of sick people in hospitals - it's just an easy way to increase the odds of someone getting better - giving the illusion of a miracle.

That's not the way it is was explained to me as a kid. For Sainthood you need to prove that the dead person has a close relationship with God. You do that by praying to them after they have died. If a miracle occurs it is proof that the prayer "got through". So you have demonstrated that the dead person is a Saint.

Michael

Disclaimer: Don't take any of the above as suggesting I believe in this mumbo-jumbo.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:37:01 UTC | #578659

Neurotic's Avatar Comment 5 by Neurotic

Who cares?

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:44:08 UTC | #578662

sirmailbox's Avatar Comment 6 by sirmailbox

Fallacy hard at work. It was determined that a natural explanation for the recovery was unavailable. Hence, it must have been a supernatural event. Do people ever tire of making this basic mistake?

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 05:12:43 UTC | #578669

TIKI AL's Avatar Comment 7 by TIKI AL

Every person that prayed to the pope after he died for a recovery and got zilch needs to come forth and be counted.

I'll bet it will be millions. Talk about an inefficient health care system.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 05:30:26 UTC | #578671

prettygoodformonkeys's Avatar Comment 8 by prettygoodformonkeys

Still waiting for one of them to use their magic on an amputee. Even a finger. That would have no medical explanation.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 05:57:03 UTC | #578674

Damien17's Avatar Comment 9 by Damien17

If the vatican has James Randi declare it a miracle, rather than some "Church-appointed doctors", I'll believe it.

Until then it's the fictional St. General John Paul, of his own fictional saintly army.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 06:01:00 UTC | #578676

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 10 by Cook@Tahiti

Reminds me of the Julian dynasty Caesars that were deified after their deaths.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 06:11:51 UTC | #578679

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 11 by Steve Zara

There is a perfect, benevolent omnipotent being. He loves us all, every one of us. He loves us so much that he sent his only son to suffer and die so that we could be saved from sin and from death. What a loving god he is.

He made this world for us to live in, a world full of wonder and beauty. It is perfection, it must be, because he is perfect and loves us all.

This perfect world contains suffering, so much suffering. That suffering must surely be good, part of his plan. Perhaps we need to suffer, to grow and develop as full people, so that we can be as perfect as him. Yes, that must be it. The world is perfect because it challenges us, makes us complete.

There are miracles, which change the world. The perfect world. It's changed by miracles. This is getting a bit confusing. Bear with me. Ah yes. Perhaps we make the world less perfect, because we do have free will. So, occasionally God steps in to adjust the world, to keep things on track after we have corrupted it. Yes, that must be it. The world is perfect, except for our influence, and then God keeps it on track with miracles to guide the faithful. This is the all-powerful and benevolent creator looking after us.

Then there are saints. Saints are people who guide the way, who are examples to us all. When I was younger Christopher, patron saint of travellers help us find our way. Saint Christopher. I remember that name. Ah yes, he was a Saint who was dropped by the Vatican. Oh. Saints are supposed to intercede for us with God. Perhaps some other saints helped when Christopher was demoted. No, that wouldn't work. Perhaps the saints realised we were mistaken from the start and so took the part of Saint Christopher. Yes, that must be it. We should pray to saints because even if they don't exist, the prayers will get through. Yet another way the creator cares for us all.

The Vatican supports science, and puts much effort into ensuring that someone deserves sainthood. There is rigorous research, and there must be evidence of miracles. Evidence of miracles. Scientific evidence of miracles. That must work like this: someone said that they were cured of a serious illness after praying to a saint. That sounds reasonable. All that needs to be shown is that there was a cure that can't be explained by science. Wait a minute. I'm having trouble with this. Please be patient. The problem is that the Church says the supernatural is beyond science, but they are using scientific methods to try and show that there was a miracle. But they show a miracle through the inability of science to explain what happened. So they have a mystery, and because it's a mystery, it must be a miracle. No, that can't be right, can it? Because that would be a 'miracle-of-the-gaps', and putting God into gaps is not supposed to be good theology. I'm going to have to think about this.

Let's get back to the saints. They intercede for us with God. Pray to a saint and ... no, wait a minute. That doesn't seem right somehow. Does that mean that prayers not to a saint aren't listened to? If they are, what is the point of the saint? What if the saint chooses not to listen - should we then try asking god instead? I'm confused even more.

Saints must be good people when alive. They may even perform miracles when alive. Now hold on, what's that all about? Aren't miracles supposed to be god's way of setting the world to rights and guiding us? So how do the saints get to choose when the magic works? Oh dear.

I'm beggining to have problems. There is an all-powerful and benevolent god who nevertheless needs to tweak his creation to keep it on track, but he still loves us all and listens to our prayers, but then he sometimes ignores them unless we pray to saints, who we know are saints because the Vatican has used science to prove that because we have a mysterious cure the only explanation must the saint nagging a reluctant God into helping someone who is suffering, except for when we have got it wrong and made someone a saint who should not have been, when presumably a rota of stand-in saints who pick up the slack.

Well, at least we can look to the historical lives of saints as examples for us all. Putting aside Saint Christopher, of course. Some of the achievement of the saints include developing injuries that remind us of being tortured on the cross, managing to be in two places at once, and levitation. Right. Self-harming, having a double, and flying. Examples for us all..

I'm having a bit of trouble with this saint business. I think I had better stop there.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 06:11:58 UTC | #578680

JuJu's Avatar Comment 12 by JuJu

I see, a little new age quackery mixed with old time religion. The double whammy delusion.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 06:56:41 UTC | #578688

tfar's Avatar Comment 13 by tfar

My dear old mum is ecstatic about this. Following so soon after Mary McKillock too! The number of miracles occurring recently is simply miraculous. I understand though that Karol Józef Wojtyła has to be credited with one more miracle from this date if he is to be truly saintly i.e. canonized instead of just beatified. Of course the miracle must not be explainable by science. The rules are perfection, instantaneous and not verifiable by science. I wonder whether he will be Saint John Paul II or Saint Karol? Isn't Faith wonderful?

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 07:41:56 UTC | #578697

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 14 by Stevehill

Church-appointed doctors agreed that there was no medical explanation for the curing of the nun, although last year there were some doubts about the validity of the miracle.

'Some doubts'.

That understatement alone merits a Bad Faith Award.

Why do they persist with all this miracles-and-saints guff? It's meaningless. There's not even a lot of Biblical authority for it all.

Ironically JP2 was one of the better Popes, and certainly played a role in the end of communism which you can't take away from him.

So put up a statue.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 07:54:32 UTC | #578700

biorays's Avatar Comment 15 by biorays

Someone won the jackpot this week so lays all pay homage to "Saint Casino"

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:05:49 UTC | #578709

Brif's Avatar Comment 16 by Brif

Let´s see if I´ve got this right. A saint is some dead stalwart of the faith who has special access to God. If you pray to him he can put in a good word for you with the almighty. Now here´s the question: who grants such special privileges? Does God or some celestial committee admit such a person to the Communion of Saints immediately after death, or does a saint only acquire this special power after the beatification/canonization process at the Vatican? If the first is true, what difference does it make what the Vatican thinks? If the second, then isn´t the Pope telling God what to do?

I´m only asking.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:59:56 UTC | #578723

phodopus's Avatar Comment 17 by phodopus

German news sites featured this as "breaking news". sigh. How on earth is this even more than an aside. Oh wait, not on earth, that's the point.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:08:15 UTC | #578744

Presto2112's Avatar Comment 18 by Presto2112

You'd have thought a case of "cured" Parkinson's Disease would have made for major international headlines. A dead guy performing the cure even more so!

How come we only get to hear about PJP2's healing powers now? Michael J. Fox for one could have really used that information for quite some time. "Hey Mike, all you have to do is pray to the Pope! Oh, and apparently it helps to be a nun."

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:37:55 UTC | #578753

the great teapot's Avatar Comment 19 by the great teapot

I don't think we are supposed to think of the miracles as actual miracles. They are metaphors. Jez you atheists, do you miss the point deliberately?

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:37:45 UTC | #578775

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 20 by Alan4discussion

Another MIRACLE! You would have thought someone who could cure Parkinson's Disease would have cured more than one patient!

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:38:47 UTC | #578776

Vaal's Avatar Comment 21 by Vaal

Wonder how Ratzinger's predecessor will beatify him?

Saint Foot in mouth?

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:45:01 UTC | #578780

PurplePanda's Avatar Comment 22 by PurplePanda

The only thing he's paving the way for is his own beatification from the next Pope.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:51:17 UTC | #578783

Mindscape's Avatar Comment 23 by Mindscape

(Reading this on a Saturday)

At least I got a great Saturday laugh out of the Poop. Sorry, that should be "Pope".

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:06:11 UTC | #578794

Terry_O_Stewart's Avatar Comment 24 by Terry_O_Stewart

Why don't they ever pray for WORLD PEACE?

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:16:55 UTC | #578797

Vaal's Avatar Comment 25 by Vaal

So, is beatification like New year's honours, that they award themselves, without the slightest hint of irony. Why don’t they go the whole hog and just declare themselves Gods?

Perhaps, we should beatify Ratzinger as the world's greatest advertisement for atheism? Keep up the good work Ratzy!

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:17:24 UTC | #578798

mcek's Avatar Comment 26 by mcek

The Church is trying to assassinate the Labour Day in Poland by scheduling the beatification for the 1st of May. Cardinal Dziwisz admitted that it was upon his request. From now on the right wing heads will have an excuse to try and shout down the Labour Day celebrations. They really need to pollute (or poison) everything.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:20:37 UTC | #578803

AlexP's Avatar Comment 27 by AlexP

Wasn't it not too long ago ( by the standards of the catholic church ) when the "inexplicable disappearance" of a disease two months after a particular person died was considered proof that: Yes, the woman was truly a witch, she deserved to be burned! Look how her evil magic evaporates after her death!

Also: I really love it when people call something "inexplicable"... and then go on and explain you what supposedly happened.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:24:37 UTC | #578805

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 28 by aquilacane

What I find miraculous is that a god's top man on earth was only credited with one miracle. After blessing all those millions of people, just one. Wow!

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 14:12:28 UTC | #578817

isisdron's Avatar Comment 29 by isisdron

I know to some people this is newsworthy...but I just feel sick.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 14:20:36 UTC | #578820

flamenco's Avatar Comment 30 by flamenco

Beatification sounds a fancy word for "magic spell-master".

So the previous pope could cast spells. But not many.

Was that because he had to use up a lot of magic power, or he couldn't really be bothered or he thought not many people (sick children etc) deserved the magic spells?

Ludicrous.

Sat, 15 Jan 2011 14:29:28 UTC | #578824