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← Young, British Muslims 'getting more radical'

Young, British Muslims 'getting more radical' - Comments

Roy_H's Avatar Comment 1 by Roy_H

"Forty per cent of Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 said they would prefer to live under sharia law in Britain, a legal system based on the teachings of the Koran. The figure among over-55s, in contrast, was only 17 per cent."
OK live by Sharia law if you want to ,but not in my country, the airport is thataway >>>>>>

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:47:00 UTC | #17582

Janus's Avatar Comment 2 by Janus

How regressive and oppressive does a belief system have to be in order to warrant draconian measures by our governments?

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:57:00 UTC | #17584

Reg's Avatar Comment 3 by Reg

Turning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death." Among the over 55s, the figure is only 19 per cent. The sad indication of the further acceptability of this insanity is the use by Graeme Wilson of the word "only".

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:11:00 UTC | #17585

Kimpatsu's Avatar Comment 4 by Kimpatsu

Do you think the word "advertisement" could be removed from the above post, please...?

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:26:00 UTC | #17588

Boogie's Avatar Comment 5 by Boogie

"Turning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death."": This is a sickness of mind that really needs to be addressed, and I can't think of a better way than to teach the young that religion is a delusion. Did you ever hear an atheist say: "you should be killed if you believe what I don't believe"?

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:27:00 UTC | #17589

Jez's Avatar Comment 6 by Jez

Do you want to see or understand what it means to be stoned to death?
I haven't watched the video, I didn't get past the cruelty of the explanation (what happens in stoning) of what it involves and don't like voyeur aspect of watching someone die.
But please, even if you don't intend to watch the video, take the time to learn about this practice.
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
This is a site I found from a link for 'Athiest help and resources' btw.

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:28:00 UTC | #17590

-TheCodeCrack-'s Avatar Comment 7 by -TheCodeCrack-

every western country hates the day in which we willfuly aloud those nutters it to our countries.

Mosques have to stop being built right now. no buts. If that happens and it causes immeidate violence, well, better now then in 20 years. I don't want my kids to confront this logic bomb when it's bigger.

And muslim immigration should be banned in western countries iummediately, no buts.
and the rest booted out.

problem solved in 3 years.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:25:00 UTC | #17595

Jez's Avatar Comment 8 by Jez

Ouch, I am sorry you feel this way. Interchange 'muslim' for any other belief system.
3 years is nothing, remember that.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:53:00 UTC | #17598

JimC's Avatar Comment 9 by JimC

TheCodeCrack goes too far. If there was a way of deporting only the young firebrands who reject the West (in which case they should want to go to Saudi Arabia or the like!), and allowing moderate muslims who are prepared to accept pluralism to stay, I would say go for it. But this would be very difficult. Perhaps a 3rd generation will move away from their fundamentalist parents.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:46:00 UTC | #17605

Pantore's Avatar Comment 10 by Pantore

So this Gordon Brown guy wants Britain to be a flag waving society, like the Americans?
Lol

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:39:00 UTC | #17607

David James's Avatar Comment 11 by David James

The Code Crack goes WAY too far JimC. This is seriously nasty talk. Pull yourself together Codecrack and don't embarrass us here. I HATE religious belief and especially any aggressive or hateful variety but the type of fantasty you're engaging in here is ridiculous. You are talking about ripping innocent people (deluded yes, but still innocent) out of their homes. I have a Muslim friend. I HATE the fact that she has these ludicrous beliefs but it would not be right or helpful to engage in the kind of fascist activity you're talking about. This is not the way forward you fool. GROW UP.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:13:00 UTC | #17608

-TheCodeCrack-'s Avatar Comment 12 by -TheCodeCrack-

David james


"This is not the way forward you fool. GROW UP."

Insulting me personally in your attempt to discredit my opinion is a mark of low intellect.
So stop embarrasing us here!

I stand with my opinion, mosques should no longer be built, Muslims band from immigrating to oz.

Someone said the same should apply for all religions, well I agree, but I prioritise and they are at the top of my list.

Your attitude will continue the present problems with Islam, but the future of any western country with your attitude (how do we get rid of islam do you believe?), Islam will get worse and worse in countires with your attitude.
My attitude will be better for our future in this western country.

ps - It's not racist to band muslims or mosques, mulsims are not a race! so drop the usual come backs.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:58:00 UTC | #17613

mmurray's Avatar Comment 13 by mmurray

"Forty per cent of Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 said they would prefer to live under sharia law in Britain, a legal system based on the teachings of the Koran. The figure among over-55s, in contrast, was only 17 per cent."

It would be interesting to see what the response would be if, instead of just saying `sharia law' you detailed some of the consequences of this such as cutting off the hands of shop lifters, stoning to death women who commit adultery etc. Would they say yes to that ?

As to the `throw 'em out response' while I sympathise it is not going to solve the problem. Moreover it is a very dangerous path to go down when they are citizens of the country they are living in. What are you going to say to `if you don't like the church of england being the official church of the UK you can go somewhere else' or `Australia is a christian nation - if you don't like it go and live somewhere atheist'.

Michael

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:11:00 UTC | #17615

David James's Avatar Comment 14 by David James

CodeCrack,

I didn't MERELY insult you personally (although I did DO that) I also tried to raise your awareness about exactly what it is you're condoning: The forcable expulsion from their homes of some very nice, peaceful citizens, men women and CHILDREN, who are our friends and colleagues. I agree they are deluded and it upsets me greatly, but your notion is a vicious and impractical fantasy. I say "Grow up" because anyone with an ounce of maturity can see that what you propose is not going to happen and if it did it would be a mess. Can we seriously imagine a world where, when we go into work tomorrow we are told that 'that nice Kumar in Personelle' won't be coming in tomorrow because he's being shipped off to Pakistan aginst his will. And anyone who think we can solve a problem like this in 3 years is seriously immature.

And while I follow your logic to some degree I am deeply concerned about where it leads. This would effectively turn the Middle East into a ghetto. And a GHETTO WITH GUNS AND BOMBS. What's your Final Solution Codecrack?

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:33:00 UTC | #17620

Logicel's Avatar Comment 15 by Logicel

Surveys are highly suspect--much useless slag surfaces along with some precious nuggets of usable information.

The horrendous atrocities commited in Islam's name certainly explains the anger and determination revealed in TheCodeCrack's opinion. He asks how can one be rid of Islam? The answer obviously is with great difficulty. Banning the building of mosques and the ending of immigration of muslims to Australia is too blunt and crude of a solution to work, like slapping a puny bandaid on a gaping wound, and it is also reminiscent of the American shock and awe nonsense in Iraq which apparently also had sounded so surgical and straighforward to Rumsfeld.

Australia will not suddenly become enveloped in a selective information bubble by closing the physical borders of Australia--which of course in itself is impossible, just ask the American border patrol regarding illegal Mexican immigration--in order to stem the tide of violence committed in Islam's name. Banning mosques is not going to prevent interested parties in worshipping together via Web communities or plotting to carry out terroist attacks via Web connected terror cells.

All faith believers, including Muslims, are human beings. Treat them as such. Work at keeping all faiths out of the public sphere, and expose children to all faiths as well as non-faith when they are growing up. This fight will take time, courage, determination, wisdom, patience, guts, decisive action, and a deep sense and appreciation of the power of human reason and rationality when it is given a chance to flourish. Any citizen breaking its country's law regardless of their faith will be prosecuted. We need to work to keep our laws relevant to the preservation of our way of life.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:46:00 UTC | #17621

DavidMcC's Avatar Comment 16 by DavidMcC

CodeCrack, while I wouldn't have been as blunt as David James, I am inclined to agree with him, that even attempting to carry out a mass deportation is a VERY bad idea, which doesn't solve the real problems. In this case, the real problem is Britain's military support to GW Bush in the ME, not ethnic minorities who happen to be muslim, and some of whom are incensed by what is going on there.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:48:00 UTC | #17622

Lord Asriel's Avatar Comment 17 by Lord Asriel

I agree with the posters opposing TheCodeCrack.

In addition the problem with your 'solution', TheCodeCrack, is that it is discriminatory but the discrimination is not made on the basis of what you want to fight (i.e. extremism, irrational believes, etc.). Let alone the problem of proportionality of such a measure. It would not be dignified and be in contradiction with basic human rights.

It is also fundamentally in contradiction with important values (which for me are related to atheism) which are in my opinion often trashed by religious zealots (e.g. Freedom of speech, freedom of belief, individualism).

I am not sure if your radical 'suggestion' is a serious idea of yours or if it is just intended to provoke. If the former is the case I agree that it is immature.

P.S.: Besides the problem of how the question was asked, polls usually reflect an opinion at a specific moment in time. The results might be very different in six months from here. Do we get them back, then?

P.P.S.: Freedom of belief does not mean freedom from having your belief challenged. Just to avoid misunderstandings here... :-)

Typos edited

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:36:00 UTC | #17626

Luthien's Avatar Comment 18 by Luthien

TheCodeCrack, as many here have said, that will just make the problem worse.

I think the issue here is "faith schools", they are the institutions we should be banning.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:45:00 UTC | #17628

anon's Avatar Comment 19 by anon

I can only hope that all these youths who want sharia implemented in the UK and apostates murdered don't truly understand what they are saying, and that it's just a product of ignorance and mindless clan loyalty.

Are youths today so desperate for a sense of identity that they'll surrender their minds to the most passionate one that comes along? We really, really, REALLY need to start teaching critical thinking skills in school.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:01:00 UTC | #17631

-TheCodeCrack-'s Avatar Comment 20 by -TheCodeCrack-

Nope, I was 100% serious.

Stop Muslim Immigration to Australia immediately. If there is a violent demonstration on the streets by Muslims, you KNOW you have done the right thing, for the very fact that they are willing to kill to get people of there religion in the country means the problem required urgent attention, no putting it off.

If you ban Muslim immgration, and they get violent, I say there numbers are low and better now then in 50 years.

My strategy is crude, But this is survival! Being a push over gets you killed. not standing up to a problem, not standing up strongly, will cause more problems in the future.

I believe the people on here who oppose my stratedgy are meerly not tackling the issue and allowing it to grow.

why you'se argue on here against me, guess what, the problem is growing as this article suggests.

How do you'se than plan on stopping it now? My stratedgy would work in a couple of years (in faith no outside presence interfeers)

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:02:00 UTC | #17632

padster1976's Avatar Comment 21 by padster1976

Of all the nuances and complications, all I need to remember is that Sharia law does somewhat favour males so i wonder what ratio of female/ male make up the 40% that want sharia law.

The option must be given to them - if they want sharia law, there are country's that follow it. Ergo, go there.

Simple.

No, it really is. I'm part of a minority. True, I look like a local and I've lived long enough to 'talk the talk' as well so I do not experience the same degree of bigotry as someone whom may have skin of a darker hue.

However, If I wanted to live in the way that my parents lived, I would go to that country rather than try to change this country. Something about when in Rome...?

I like the way they use their free speech and right to expression - that wouldn't be allowed under the law they wish.

Right on guys - you go for it!!

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:03:00 UTC | #17633

MouthAlmighty's Avatar Comment 22 by MouthAlmighty

Stop Muslim Immigration to Australia immediately. If there is a violent demonstration on the streets by Muslims, you KNOW you have done the right thing, for the very fact that they are willing to kill to get people of there religion in the country means the problem required urgent attention, no putting it off.


Typical! You build yourself a "clear thinking oasis" and some tosser comes along and takes a dump in the drinking water!

Maybe we should have him banned from the site - if he complains then, "you KNOW you have done the right thing."

Fuckwit!

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:52:00 UTC | #17638

David James's Avatar Comment 23 by David James

Thanks so much for that.

Haven't had a good laugh all day.

(Note to self: Don't take it all so seriously)

Thanks MouthAlmighty.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:59:00 UTC | #17639

Cholmonedeley's Avatar Comment 24 by Cholmonedeley

-TheCodeCrack- llustrates what I feel is the only problem with atheism: get rid of god without getting rid of the State, and the State becomes your god. So if the Statists on this board could answer me one question...

Why is it alright for the government to engage in the violence involved in banning faith schools or ejecting millions of people from a geographic area, but it is not okay for people to engage in violence in the name of their religion?

If you're going to embrace violence as a means towards an end, you may as well respect principled violence, n'est-ce pas?

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:37:00 UTC | #17644

MouthAlmighty's Avatar Comment 25 by MouthAlmighty

I won't disagree with you Cholmonedeley - but aside from TheToadsCrack do you think anyone on here is really advocating disbelief by force?

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:49:00 UTC | #17648

Janus's Avatar Comment 26 by Janus


Why is it alright for the government to engage in the violence involved in banning faith schools or ejecting millions of people from a geographic area, but it is not okay for people to engage in violence in the name of their religion?


Why is it all right to knock a guy out when he's brandishing a knife at you?

In both cases, because it's pre-emptive self-defense. You'd have to be an idiot to stand there and do nothing.

The majority of Muslims aren't just deluded. My aunt who believes in astrology and homeopathy is deluded. My (extremely liberal) Catholic grandmother is deluded. Most Muslims are deluded AND dangerous; perhaps not as individuals (except for extremists), but certainly as a large group.

In any event, I fail to see the violence involved in banning faith schools. If there is violence, it will come from our dear Muslim friends. The same goes for putting a halt to Muslim immigration. How any atheist who even remotely agrees with what Dawkins and Harris are saying can disagree with the implementation of these two measures, I can't understand.

Deportation is another thing entirely, and frankly I wouldn't support it even if it wasn't ethically troubling, simply because it's not practical. I would perhaps offer an incentive for Muslims to go back to their countries of origin, and focus on integrating those who will stay into our countries. The banning of faith schools would be a step in the right direction to accomplish that goal, that's for sure.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:58:00 UTC | #17649

dermor's Avatar Comment 27 by dermor

Ok, Janus-
1: Muslim people, however misguided they may be- as all religious people are in their belief, are not brandishing a knife at society any more than "The Irish" were during the worst of the troubles in England.
2: Any atheist who even remotely agrees with what Dawkins and Harris are saying would by extension reject any person of any faith entering the UK, not simply Muslims.
3: I am an atheist, and agree almost to the point of being an acolyte of Dawkins, but to suggest banning faith schools or immigration is in any way a solution simply ignores history.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:09:00 UTC | #17651

MouthAlmighty's Avatar Comment 28 by MouthAlmighty

Most Muslims are deluded AND dangerous


Janus - since I'm one of those atheists you can't understand - please explain.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:33:00 UTC | #17654

Janus's Avatar Comment 29 by Janus

1: Muslim people, however misguided they may be- as all religious people are in their belief, are not brandishing a knife at society any more than "The Irish" were during the worst of the troubles in England.


- Muslim values are incompatible with Western humanistic values. Have you read the above article at all? Even if the percentages are grossly exagerated, it's clear that Muslims present a greater danger than any other ideological group, religious or not.

- The Muslim reproduction rate is two to three times greater than that of other citizens. And of course, the vast majority of children born of Muslim parents will grow up to be Muslim themselves, with no apparent decrease of religious fervor and fundamentalism (and a great increase, if the article is to be trusted). It won't take that many decades for this annoying minority to become a powerful force outnumbering any other single religious or non-religious group, especially with the decline of Christianity in Europe.

These are two things that could never have been said about the Irish.

2: Any atheist who even remotely agrees with what Dawkins and Harris are saying would by extension reject any person of any faith entering the UK, not simply Muslims.


Nonsense. A big part of Harris' message in particular is that WHAT religious people believe matters, that not all religions are equally foolish or equally dangerous. If you ignore a few religions with so few believers that they're utterly insignificant, Islam is by far the most oppressive, regressive, violent religion of them all.

3: I am an atheist, and agree almost to the point of being an acolyte of Dawkins, but to suggest banning faith schools or immigration is in any way a solution simply ignores history.


Banning faith schools would force Muslim parents to send their children to culturally and religiously diverse schools. That alone makes the banning of faith schools worth it. Of course, it would also give children an opportunity to spend some time in a place where they're not being indoctrinated into believing loads of blatantly false rubbish.

As for halting Muslim immigration, how is this not a good (partial) solution? The ascendency of Islam in Europe is inevitable, if things stay as they are. It seems obvious to me that the first thing to do is to stop the influx before worrying about how to deal with those we're already stuck with.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:35:00 UTC | #17655

Janus's Avatar Comment 30 by Janus

Janus - since I'm one of those atheists you can't understand - please explain.


What is there to explain? I'm sure you know what most Muslims believe, you know what's written in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, Islam hasn't gone through the Enlightenment. The percentage of 'fundamentalist' Muslims is much greater in Islam than that of fundamentalist Christians in Christianity.

Given that most Muslims live (or lived until recently, or were brought up by parents who recently lived) in theocracies, or virtual theocracies, it's obvious that their values will be as far as they can possibly be from those traditionally upheld in secular democracies where freedom of action, freedom of belief, and freedom of speech are of utmost importance.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:42:00 UTC | #17656