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← Tory chief Baroness Warsi attacks 'bigotry' against Muslims

Tory chief Baroness Warsi attacks 'bigotry' against Muslims - Comments

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 61 by Border Collie

"Islamophobia" is a contrived, artificial word with no meaning except to Muslims, dhimmis, the media and the otherwise angst-ridden mc/pc appeaser types. Look up the definition of "phobia". Fear of Islam is not irrational except to those who haven't come out of their burrows for 1.4 millennia.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:19:43 UTC | #581400

weavehole's Avatar Comment 62 by weavehole

This argument over the meaning of 'Islamophobic' seems a little bit of a red herring. If pushed I'd fall on the side of NealOKelly over those who postulate the 'phobia means irrational fear' argument purely because I've seen religious (and otherwise) bigots use the same etymological reasoning to explain why they are not 'homophobes'. The modern usage of the suffix -phobe can be very different from what it once was. If you were to apply this same etymological precision/pedantry to all words I really wouldn't want to be anywhere near you when you urinate in the toilet. Ech, messy.

Seems to me that if someone accuses you of being an islamophobe you should turn the argument on it's head and tell all and sundry that you are against all forms of bigotry, including those against gays and women, and that you don't care what religion anyone may be as long as they themselves also refrain from bigotry. You have the right to do and believe whatever you want as long as that doesn't infringe on anyone else's.

Another small moan, hadn't we previously argued out that FGM is a 'cultural' rather than an islamic practise? I'd welcome being corrected of course but am I right in saying that it appears nowhere in the quran or hadiths? If we're going to argue against a belief system I'd like to be sure that we're not using false information to do so.

Back to Warsi, does anyone disagree with what she says here?

“Those who commit criminal acts of terrorism in our country need to be dealt with not just by the full force of the law,” “They also should face social rejection and alienation across society and their acts must not be used as an opportunity to tar all Muslims.”

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:20:51 UTC | #581401

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 63 by NealOKelly

Comment 60 by sbooder

And where is the word Chrisendomophobia please, unless you are insinuating that my hatred of Islam is a racial dislike...are you?

I think you just coined it. If it catches on, then one day it might find it's way into a dictionary. And as the person that coined it, you'll very probably be able to influence the definition that the lexicographers associate with it.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:21:48 UTC | #581402

Dirty Kuffar's Avatar Comment 64 by Dirty Kuffar

I agree with pretty much all the criticisms of Baroness Warsi above - this talentless neo-aristocratic taqqiya peddlar should be sacked immediatly, along with her imbecelic sidekick Caroline Spellman MP who thinks that the burqah should not be banned (whatever happened to that private members bill by the way ?). To think the niave British public voted Tory as they were hoping for an end to New Labour's covert pc agenda and islamist-appeasment ! - the big question is - how do we, the freedom loving British people, give this lot the elbow ?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:24:03 UTC | #581404

PurplePanda's Avatar Comment 65 by PurplePanda

@ SteveZara

Perhaps not in your case. But all I am saying is that there is Islamophobia in Britain, not that all fear of Islam is irrational.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:26:10 UTC | #581407

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 66 by Steve Zara

Comment 65 by PurplePanda

@ SteveZara

Perhaps not in your case. But all I am saying is that there is Islamophobia in Britain, not that all fear of Islam is irrational.

I'm not sure that there is. I think it may really be a combination of racism and xenophobia - fear of difference. What people are fearing irrationally is not that someone is Muslim, but that they are not part of their everyday experience.

My feeling is that there is real irrational reaction to Muslims, but not because they are Muslims, if you see what I mean.

An example is the policies of the BNP, who use Islam as a proxy for race.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:30:28 UTC | #581408

sbooder's Avatar Comment 67 by sbooder

There is a glaring difference between the words Homophobia and Islamophobia, and that is, Homophobe is based on an irrational fear where as Islamophobia is not.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:40:35 UTC | #581409

Alan Dente's Avatar Comment 68 by Alan Dente

Comment 62 by weavehole:

A 'cultural practice' that just happens to be almost exclusive to muslim communities? Gimme a break.

FGM is sexual repression masquerading as piety. The practice incorporates the stitching of the vaginal opening (until marriage, and the agonising wedding night) as a kind of sick homage to chastity. If you want to argue that this is no way ties in with the Islamic faith then go ahead. To me this would be like saying that a serial killer doesn't paper his house with human skin because he's a serial killer, but rather because it was the only material that offered that perfect 'off-white' shade...

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:43:48 UTC | #581410

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 69 by Richard Dawkins

Baroness Warsi has never been elected to Parliament. What are her qualifications to be in the Cabinet? Does anyone seriously think she would be in the Cabinet, or in the House of Lords, if she was not a Muslim woman? Is her elevation to high office (a meteoric rise, for she is the youngest member of the House of Lords) any more than a deplorable example of tokenism?

Richard

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:48:16 UTC | #581412

idmczero's Avatar Comment 70 by idmczero

Professor Dawkins - I hope you will be saying your piece on Newsnight or Questiontime.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:53:13 UTC | #581413

sbooder's Avatar Comment 71 by sbooder

Comment 66 by Steve Zara :

Comment 65 by PurplePanda

@ SteveZara

Perhaps not in your case. But all I am saying is that there is Islamophobia in Britain, not that all fear of Islam is irrational.

I'm not sure that there is. I think it may really be a combination of racism and xenophobia - fear of difference. What people are fearing irrationally is not that someone is Muslim, but that they are not part of their everyday experience. My feeling is that there is real irrational reaction to Muslims, but not because they are Muslims, if you see what I mean.

An example is the policies of the BNP, who use Islam as a proxy for race.

Then you will have to explain why my hatred of Christianity is as evident as my hatred for Islam

It has nothing to do with race and all to do with a vile adherent to archaic doctrines

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:53:55 UTC | #581414

pipsy's Avatar Comment 72 by pipsy

Is Warsi a moderate or an extremist? Is she the baroness of bullshit?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:53:56 UTC | #581415

PrayForMe's Avatar Comment 73 by PrayForMe

I'm confused. Is she a member of the House of Commons? If so, she can't hold a seat if she wasn't elected, can she?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:00:34 UTC | #581418

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 74 by Vorlund

Comment 38 - MorganDaly

Taking a sharp implement to the genitals of any children who are unable to consent is wrong. Surgically altering a fully functioning evolved structure to achieve some idea of improvement is also wrong and stupid. It is also an assault (though in english law surgery is the only assault one can consent to). If adults wish to consent, fine though I would suggest they needed psychiatric profiling the same way as anyone else with dysmorphia. They shouldn't be consenting on behalf of their children just because they order their lives on a dubious collection of iron age ravings.

SHAME on the telegraph for censoring the comments. So much for freedom of speech.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:04:55 UTC | #581420

Bloom's Avatar Comment 75 by Bloom

Maybe the Baroness is going to the wrong kind of dinner parties? We usually talk about football. Though there are some rather good muslim footballers.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:05:59 UTC | #581422

weavehole's Avatar Comment 76 by weavehole

Comment 67 by sbooder

Forgive my lack of clarity, my point was to argue that we shouldn't be wasting time arguing about what the word means. If someone is accused of being islamophobic the accuser doesn't mean to say that the accused is afraid (irrationally or not) they mean to say that you are bigoted. If accused of being so, I would go on to address my non-bigoted credentials and question theirs.

Comment 68 by MorganDaly

A 'cultural practice' that just happens to be almost exclusive to muslim communities? Gimme a break.

Does correlation always imply causation? If it has no religious background (I don't know for sure, remember?) then the matter becomes a little more complicated than sometimes we make it out to be.

There's really no need to lecture me on the despicable nature of FGM I'm not trying to protect it. Just trying to stop giving apologists for islam reasons for calling out atheists who use irrelevant arguments. We don't need to invent atrocities against religion when there are plenty of real and tangible ones to rail against, doing so only weakens our thrust.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:10:02 UTC | #581426

ScottB's Avatar Comment 77 by ScottB

73 by PrayForMe

I'm confused. Is she a member of the House of Commons? If so, she can't hold a seat if she wasn't elected, can she?

She did stand for election but lost- badly. So the Tory party made her a peer. Now she is a member of the cabinet and quite unelected. I can only think of one reason, considering her age and lack of political experience, that she was made a peer: the tokenism referred to by Richard above.

The conservative party has been trying to rid itself of it's public school, jobs-for-the-old-boys image for a long time. A women with brown skin was perfect and even better she's a muslim. Now the 1922 comittee can continue being racists and sexists and if questioned can point to the party membership of a Lady Muslim Peer.

Besides the Mohammed thing, she is as bigotted as the old boys themselves and fits in quite well.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:13:45 UTC | #581427

jez999's Avatar Comment 78 by jez999

Comment 6 by Richard Dawkins :

And to all the women and girls who have been genitally mutilated?

Genitally mutilated IN BRITAIN, by the way, because the police are so terrified of being called "Islamophobic" that they turn a blind eye and don't prosecute.

Richard

Not that I don't believe you Richard, but do you have sources for this claim? I'd be interested to read.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:14:20 UTC | #581428

mmurray's Avatar Comment 79 by mmurray

Comment 73 by PrayForMe :

I'm confused. Is she a member of the House of Commons? If so, she can't hold a seat if she wasn't elected, can she?

She is a member of the House of Lords for life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeeda_Warsi,_Baroness_Warsi

I don't understand why the House of Lords is being perpetuated by these new appointments.

Michael

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:14:37 UTC | #581429

MrTicketyBoo's Avatar Comment 80 by MrTicketyBoo

British Muslims needn't be concerned about the rise of 'Islamophobia'. After all, anyone indulging in too vehement criticism of their religion are likely to be arrested.

From today's Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-arrested-after-koran-burning-in-carlisle-2189707.html

I find it interesting that you can be arrested for 'using racially aggravated threatening words or behaviour' for burning a religious text.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:14:55 UTC | #581430

twattybanjo's Avatar Comment 81 by twattybanjo

My friend Joe, an otherwise sensible chap, believes in homeopathy.

Can I still point and laugh at him at dinner parties please Baroness warsi?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:17:54 UTC | #581431

mmurray's Avatar Comment 82 by mmurray

Comment 80 by MrTicketyBoo :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-arrested-after-koran-burning-in-carlisle-2189707.html

I find it interesting that you can be arrested for 'using racially aggravated threatening words or behaviour' for burning a religious text.

I think he said something before be burnt the Koran

A man has been arrested after a Koran was allegedly burned during an anti-Islamic rant, police said.

He was held after a man was reported to have stood on a street in Carlisle city centre yesterday, loudly making pronouncements against the Muslim religion in front of a large crowd.

The man is then alleged to have set fire to the Koran he was holding before discarding it on the floor and hurrying away.

Officers arrived at the scene a short time later and are now investigating.

A spokesman for Cumbria Police confirmed that a 32-year-old man has been arrested.

He added: "Just after midday on Wednesday, police received reports that a Koran was being burned by a man in Carlisle city centre.

"Police have seized the remains of the book and a 32-year-old male has been arrested on suspicion of using racially aggravated threatening words or behaviour.

Note that he has not be charged yet. The last time this was reported here with a teenage girl no charges were bought. It will be interesting to see how this one proceeds. I hope the police are careful to distinguish between criticism of the Islamic religion and incitement to hate those who practice it.

Michael

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:23:23 UTC | #581433

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 83 by NealOKelly

Comment 69 by Richard Dawkins

Baroness Warsi has never been elected to Parliament. What are her qualifications to be in the Cabinet? Does anyone seriously think she would be in the Cabinet, or in the House of Lords, if she was not a Muslim woman? Is her elevation to high office (a meteoric rise, for she is the youngest member of the House of Lords) any more than a deplorable example of tokenism?

Richard

Blimey Richard! This really has got up your nose, hasn't it? Your comments are usually a great deal more measured. It's not exactly uncommon for a Minister to "rise without trace". I think we can all agree that our political system is "sub-optimal" to put it politely. Tokensim is one possibility (though if the Tories were really just after the muslim vote its interesting that they opted for a female muslim token). The other possibility in these cases, of course, is a substantial donation to the election warchest!

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:23:41 UTC | #581434

isisdron's Avatar Comment 84 by isisdron

I was going to say that I am glad to be living in the US, but then I realize it only buys me time. My son may have a different political climate when he is an adult.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:26:35 UTC | #581438

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 85 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 32 by mira

Excellent post...thanks for the link.

Apologist replies are somewhat thin on the ground at the moment....except Neal's, which is out of context.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:36:10 UTC | #581442

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 86 by SaganTheCat

The minister without portfolio will also warn that describing Muslims as either “moderate” or “extremist” fosters growing prejudice.

how about "murderers" and "would be murderers"?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:41:07 UTC | #581444

MrTicketyBoo's Avatar Comment 87 by MrTicketyBoo

Note that he has not be charged yet. The last time this was reported here with a teenage girl no charges were bought. It will be interesting to see how this one proceeds. I hope the police are careful to distinguish between criticism of the Islamic religion and incitement to hate those who practice it.

Michael

There are no charges, but it is still depressing to read of someone being arrested for ostensibly burning a book which, as you alluded to, seems to be becoming more frequent. Here's another:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8020296/Six-arrested-in-Gateshead-over-Koran-burning.html

If I had the nerve I would love to burn that awful book in public just to test the incitement to religious hatred legislation's compatibility with the Human Rights Act.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:45:06 UTC | #581446

Outrider's Avatar Comment 88 by Outrider

Baroness Warsi apparently doesn't like the qualifiers 'Moderate' or 'Extremist'.

Therefore I suggest we replace them with 'Terrorist' and 'Apologist for Terrorists'...

Alternatively, if she doesn't like the word Muslim perhaps we can use 'Latter-Day Abrahamic Faith-head?'

O.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:03 UTC | #581447

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 89 by Tyler Durden

Comment 78 by jez999 :

Comment 6 by Richard Dawkins :

And to all the women and girls who have been genitally mutilated?

Genitally mutilated IN BRITAIN, by the way, because the police are so terrified of being called "Islamophobic" that they turn a blind eye and don't prosecute.

Richard

Not that I don't believe you Richard, but do you have sources for this claim? I'd be interested to read.

This is from the Guardian/Observer, 25 July 2010:

British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws

Female circumcision will be inflicted on up to 2,000 British schoolgirls during the summer holidays – leaving brutal physical and emotional scars. Yet there have been no prosecutions against the practice

For Jason Morgan, a detective constable in the Met's FGM unit, Project Azure, the solution lies with those girls themselves: "Empowering youth, giving them the information, is the way forward. They are coming from predominantly caring and loving families, who genuinely believe this is the right thing to do. Many are under a great deal of pressure from the extended families.

"Sometimes it might be as simple as delivering the message of what the legal position is; sometimes we even give them an official letter, a document that they can show to the extended family that states quite firmly what will happen if the procedure goes ahead. The focus has to be on prevention."

Project Azure made 38 interventions in 2008, 59 in 2009 and 25 so far this year. For Morgan those statistics are just as important as getting a conviction. "We know it happens here although we have no official statistics, but we have seen very successful partnerships and we don't want to alienate communities through heavy-handed tactics.

"While a prosecution would send out a very clear message to practising communities, really it is very difficult and you would be relying on medical evidence, and in turn that would all hinge or whether the child consents to an examination."

Wait.

The solution to FGM "lies with those girls themselves", armed only with "an official letter" because the authorities "don't want to alienate communities through heavy-handed tactics", like, perhaps arresting those responsible for this barbaric practice, because "They know it happens here (UK)" - and getting an actual conviction?

How is that "heavy-handed"? Child abuse IS child abuse regardless of the guise under which/how it is perpetrated.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:49:25 UTC | #581449

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 90 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 45 by NealOKelly

Comment 32 by mira

Ok then Warsi, let's talk about bigotry within the Muslim community; I'm taking all these figures directly from the 2009 Gallup Co-Exisit Index... ... Muslims that are pro death penalty = 63%

Just to put that into perpective:

"A November 2009 television survey showed that 70% favoured reinstating the death penalty for at least one of the following crimes: armed robbery, rape, paedophilia, terrorism, adult murder, child murder, child rape, treason, child abuse, or kidnapping."

My emphasis. All crimes that gets the victims persecuted or dead in fanatical Islam. How's that for perspective?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:50:42 UTC | #581450