This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← Tory chief Baroness Warsi attacks 'bigotry' against Muslims

Tory chief Baroness Warsi attacks 'bigotry' against Muslims - Comments

Leuce's Avatar Comment 91 by Leuce

There clearly is a reason she is known as Kamikaze Warsi

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:51:48 UTC | #581451

brainsys's Avatar Comment 92 by brainsys

I await what Warsi actually says in her speech. It may well have been toned down by a nervous Tory Central Office.

One thing I shall be watching for is how the term 'bigot(ry)' is used. Most definitions of it refer to prejudicial/intolerant attitudes towards other people.

Warsi reportedly is applying it to beliefs. Rather a different thing. Is a free society that operates a "I may disagree with what you say but I defend your right to say it" bigotted? I think not.

Whether it is religion or science the right to question - and question hard is implicit. And when the questions are not answered to dismiss it as wrong and say so plainly.

The difficulty is on that moderate/extremist divide (in other contexts maybe liberal/orthodox). One refers to people who see their religion/belief as supreme, identify completely with their perception of it and nothing else counts. Liberal.Moderate is a label for believers but those prepared to compromise or re-adjust their beliefs when it comes into contact with other beliefs (and I crudely include science in that).

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:55:22 UTC | #581454

Alan Dente's Avatar Comment 93 by Alan Dente

@comment 76: Doesn't the FGM issue rise above whether or not it is the optimal example to use to argue with dogmatics? I wasn't trying to lecture you, sorry, I think the internet lends itself to brashness when brashness was not intended... also, it tricked me into using my name on my previous posts which is not general policy... :D

I do take your point, however. Having grown up in a dogmatic climate, I am convinced that it really doesn't matter how effective or otherwise the counter-argument used is. That's the beauty of 'faith', huh? :)

I had so much respect for Warsi- for her reaction when pelted with eggs and abused by hard-line muslims who disliked her apparently moderate approach (the irony being that she would rather I didn't use the terms above, of course). It's a shame. Perhaps she spoke rashly? I hope this is the case, and that she backs away from this statement somewhat. It must be frustrating to be her, and I actually kind of feel sorry for her.

Maybe I'm just sad cos I've run out of Sam Harris videos and debates to watch :(

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:57:11 UTC | #581455

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 94 by NealOKelly

Comment 91 by Ignorant Amos

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. Either someone is in favour of the death penalty for certain crimes, or they are not.

I mentioned it only because muslim views of the death penalty were being used to illustrate something about muslim attitudes as if they are necessarily different from non-mulsims. Fair enough, but it's not unreasonable to point out that majority of the UK population are also in favour of the death penaly.

Personally, that sickens me.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:03:29 UTC | #581457

CFM's Avatar Comment 95 by CFM

Comment 66 by Steve Zara "I'm not sure that there is. I think it may really be a combination of racism and xenophobia - fear of difference. What people are fearing irrationally is not that someone is Muslim, but that they are not part of their everyday experience. My feeling is that there is real irrational reaction to Muslims, but not because they are Muslims, if you see what I mean."

Comment 71 by sbooder "Then you will have to explain why my hatred of Christianity is as evident as my hatred for Islam. It has nothing to do with race and all to do with a vile adherent to archaic doctrines".

I presume that one can and should distinguish between

1, a well-argued criticism of Islam as an ideology - and of the real-life consequences of the ideas included in this ideology.

This has nothing to do with bigotry. I do not think that "islamophobia" (indicating irrationality) is the right word to describe this kind of critical examination of islamic doctrine and the realities of life in many islamic countries. This kind of critique does require some knowledge of the topic discussed. It is not directed against individual persons, but against ideas. As for individual Muslims, distinctions are or at least should be made between those for whom their faith is more important than human rights, pluralism etc. (and this is, sadly, not confined to "extremists" - but widespread among a milieux that has, in surveys, been called traditionalist-conservative) and those who cherry-pick their faith with modern ideas of democracy and tolerance in mind. These are, indeed, the "moderates".

2, a criticism of Islam that is either uninformed and based only on fear or informed by competing ideological claims (e.g. Christian ones). This is what I would call "islamophobia".

This kind of thinking does, in my opinion, inform much of the current debate about so-called "Christian values" (democracy and pluralism...) or a "judeo-christian" identity in Germany and elsewhere in Europe.

3, bigotry and hatred against Muslims, which is indeed in many cases a combination of racism and xenophobia. This is of course in many cases amplified by an irrational fear of Muslims based on their faith.

In the media and in the article linked above, the distinctions between these are often blurred. This is the case in many European countries, as others have already written. Criticism of the ideology is portrayed as intolerance or even hatred against people. At the same time, xenophobes and racists try to present themselves as offering only "reasonable criticisms"... Bigotry and even violent hatred does exist: Speaking for my own home country, there has been the murder of a veiled woman (wife of an Egyptian scientist) last year - the murderer had to appear in court after calling her a terrorist - and he stabbed her. There have been attempted arson attacks on mosques.

Making sure these issues are differentiated in public discourse is, IMHO, vitally important. Only by clarifying these distinctions it can be ensured that xenophobes or people trying to keep their own (religious) ideologies "in power"/ further their own partisan political interests cannot present themselves as "only being critical of an ideology". And, at the same time, that people offering rational arguments are not called racists or bigots..

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:06:02 UTC | #581459

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 96 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 90 by Tyler Durden

The solution to FGM "lies with those girls themselves", armed only with "an official letter" because the authorities "don't want to alienate communities through heavy-handed tactics", like, perhaps arresting those responsible for this barbaric practice - and getting an actual conviction?

If only the authorities had taken such an enlightened view of the feelings of the Armed Robbery community when I was growing up, I might have seen more of my Uncle Sid.

How is that "heavy-handed"? Child abuse IS child abuse regardless of the guise under which/how it is perpetrated.

That's a simplistic analysis. . .it's a difficult question. . . no easy answers. . . need to take a long term view. . . push it underground where we can't. . . errr. . . deal with it. . . labels the perpetrators as criminals. . . cultural practice going back centuries. . . diversity. . . (have I missed any?)

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:10:27 UTC | #581460

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 97 by aquilacane

As a bigot, I am devoted to my opinion that an act of apostasy should not carry any penalty whatsoever and that any group who believe it should carry a penalty are misled and in error. Those who believe it should carry the ultimate penalty of death, are an affront to humanity and among the worst forms of evil we absolutely must be intolerant of and demonstrate hostility toward.

I don't really care which brand of cruel persuasion has tricked them into being so thoughtless with their beliefs but such beliefs are the absolute denunciation of free will and mind and need to be openly challenged.

There are many more opinions, strongly held opinions, that would brand me a bigot in someone else's eyes but that's life. If some people who call themselves Muslim, practice beliefs that fall within my spectrum of bigotry, tough shit. There is no excuse for some behaviour, religion being one of them.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:10:37 UTC | #581461

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 98 by Stevehill

@PurplePanda

It is based on two things,

  1. The same anti-immigration rationale as those that were anti black / jew / polish etc etc in the past.

  2. The irrational fear of terrorism. Why irrational? Because the chances of getting blown up by a terrorist are very remote... you're more likely to die from asteroid impact.

On (1) I agree with you: there's been irrational racism forever; I certainly recall "Paki-bashing" skinheads in the 1970s. And it is difficult to extract what is racism as opposed to what is a valid objection to a wholly objectionable religion (it really has nothing to be said in its favour as far as I am concerned and I refuse pointblank to "respect" it).

On (2) one can be vehemently opposed to terrorism without being irrationally afraid of it.

Your example is wrong. Tens, possibly hundreds, or thousands of people have been victims of terrorism (millions more if you include say Stalin's purges or Nazism in general). I can't offhand think of anybody dying from an asteroid strike.

I've been caught up in two IRA bombings close to where I worked in London and one of the Birmingham pub bombings was a pub I was a regular at; my sister was temporarily deafened by being very close to the IRA Harrods bomb. It's close enough to home to have wholly rational fears about it, and I'm sure people in Northern Ireland can all cite far more proximate experiences. The Tavistock Square 7/7 bus bomb was a couple of hundred yards from my office.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:11:10 UTC | #581462

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 99 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 57 by PurplePanda

For many people Islamophobia is not based on the fact that it is a religion, or the activities of Islamic Theocracies, or sharia law, or anything else like that.

It is based on two things,

The same anti-immigration rationale as those that were anti black / jew / polish etc etc in the past.

No, that is being racialist and bigoted.

The irrational fear of terrorism. Why irrational? Because the chances of getting blown up by a terrorist are very remote... you're more likely to die from asteroid impact.

Can you direct me to some comparative data for this assertion. As was posted above, by RD, from the comments on the Telegraph...

hodge 48 seconds ago Sayeeda Warsi is fortunate to be living in a country where a) as a muslim woman she has a voice in public and b) nobody is either trying to force her into an arranged marriage (primitive) or punishing her for the sins of her male siblings (barbaric). the fact of the matter is that all terrorist acts committed on british soil, and in fact most developed nations, are committed by muslims, lets not dress it up by calling them islamists, who are neither grateful for the opportunity they have been given nor endeavour to blend in with the culture of the nation they have adopted. unlike any other religion, a muslim will say they are muslim first and british second. this does not happen with any form of christianity, nor buddhism, judaism or any other religion of which I can think. unfortunately muslims are their own worst enemy, they do not control their communities, they are slow to condemn atrocities, they treat women like second class citizens, and they treat animals in an appalling manner - who on earth as a right minded englishman agrees with any animal being killed to satisfy halal needs? as a 14 year old a friend of mine lost his father in lockerbie, some years later I lost a friend in 911, and a few years after that a friend of mine lost a female friend in 7/7, please do tell me what on earth good I could possibly being derived from the muslim population of the UK? and before you think I am a little englander, I am half lebanese. Report Recommend

A lot of people can point to friends, family or associates that have been affected by terrorism...it is not a necessity for it to be on ones own person to have reason to fear it. Now, I'm struggling to find anyone harmed by an asteroid...asteroidiaphobia, in that case, is a just position.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:12:57 UTC | #581465

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 100 by NealOKelly

Comment 99 by Stevehill

Sounds like the provos had really had it in for you! What exactly did you to offend them so much? ;-)

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:20:12 UTC | #581467

weavehole's Avatar Comment 101 by weavehole

Comment 94 by Alan Dente (Sorry I can't edit out your name in the other post. Any help here Admin?)

Yeah, faith is not an easy thing to get rid of by all accounts. It seems to take a lot of tip-tap-tapping away at. I just think that if they can crow-bar in any kind of defence ie "FGM is not a part of my religion" then the rest of the hard work you may have put in will be negated somewhat.

Anyhoo, you're right about the internet, it's not great for putting across good-manners sometimes. I wonder if it will eventually lead to an increase in good diction as a result of so many misunderstandings. Maybe one day I'll learn from my many mistakes.

Back to Warsi, I'm wondering how much of this article and it's mirrored sentiments in other on-line 'news'papers is an accurate portrayal of her yet to be delivered speech. The only bits that are in actual quote marks seem relatively sane. The parts which are mixed in with the journalist's words (eg the only mention of islamophobia) are not direct quotes. I'll reserve my judgement (FWIW) until I see her unabridged presentation as I don't know jack about her.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:23:39 UTC | #581469

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 102 by Atheist Mike

There is without a doubt a fraction of xenophobic resentment left in Europe (and America), a remnant of the old order if you will, but is the current situation with Islam a consequence of this revulsion? I don't think so. We, "white people" (for lack of a better word), must be very careful in identifying what is a fear (or revulsion) of "exotic" minorities and what, on the contrary is a fear of offending "exotic" minorities. I honestly think we're in over our heads with the latter.

So we shouldn't talk of "islamophobia" but rather of Enosiophobia towards Islamic adherents.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:25:20 UTC | #581471

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 103 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 95 by NealOKelly

Comment 91 by Ignorant Amos

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make.

I understood it perfectly, as I suspect did most other people.

Either someone is in favour of the death penalty for certain crimes, or they are not.

You see, there’s the thing. Personally I’m against it, mainly because of the tragically fallible nature of the criminal justice system. But if you can’t see the difference between supporting the secular death penalty for, say, child rape, and the islam prescribed death penalty for being a victim of rape (viewed as adultery), then I despair of ever achieving understanding with you.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:27:25 UTC | #581474

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 104 by Ignorant Amos

"Police have seized the remains of the book and a 32-year-old male has been arrested on suspicion of using racially aggravated threatening words or behaviour.

How do they get to that place then?

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:28:42 UTC | #581475

jez999's Avatar Comment 105 by jez999

Comment 96 by CFM :

This has nothing to do with bigotry. I do not think that "islamophobia" (indicating irrationality) is the right word to describe this kind of critical examination of islamic doctrine and the realities of life in many islamic countries. This kind of critique does require some knowledge of the topic discussed. It is not directed against individual persons, but against ideas. As for individual Muslims, distinctions are or at least should be made between those for whom their faith is more important than human rights, pluralism etc. (and this is, sadly, not confined to "extremists" - but widespread among a milieux that has, in surveys, been called traditionalist-conservative) and those who cherry-pick their faith with modern ideas of democracy and tolerance in mind. These are, indeed, the "moderates".

You've just hit the fundamental problem of multiculturalism on the head. The idea that you can simultaneously let anyone believe & act upon anything they want, and have a tolerant society that obeys the rule of law and conforms to roughly the same morality, is a logical impossibility. You either have an overarching monoculture which gives you some pretty firm boundaries to what you may do (which I wouldn't call multiculturalism), or you have Somalia.

'Multiculturalists' have just lucked out so far because people have more-or-less voluntarily decided to obey British law whilst being told they can believe and act according to their sacred beliefs. I don't think multiculturalism is going to hold much water once conservative Muslims start throwing their weight around in earnest.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:28:47 UTC | #581476

Wendy Farts On Her Bible's Avatar Comment 106 by Wendy Farts On Her Bible

The following is excerpted from Sam Harris’s book The End of Faith (pp. 124-125):

‘We now live in a world in which Muslims have been scientifically polled (with margins of error ranging from 2 to 4 percent) as to whether they support ("often," "sometimes," "rarely," or "never") the deliberate murder and maiming of noncombatant men, women, and children in defense of Islam. Here are some of the results of the Pew study…’

SUICIDE BOMBING IN DEFENSE OF ISLAM

Justifiable?

Percentage of respondents who answered YES

Lebanon 73% Ivory Coast 56% Nigeria 47% Bangladesh 44% Jordan 43% Pakistan 33% Mali 32% Ghana 30% Uganda 29% Senegal 28% Indonesia 27% Turkey 13%

Do you feel shocked or frightened by the above figures? If you do then you are irrational according to Baroness Warsi. You are simply Islamophobic.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:30:08 UTC | #581477

MrTicketyBoo's Avatar Comment 107 by MrTicketyBoo

'Do you feel shocked or frightened by the above figures? If you do then you are irrational according to Baroness Warsi. You are simply Islamophobic.'

I brought those figures up on Pharyngula in a similar discussion on the ridiculousness of the term Islamophobia and was promptly called an Islamophobe and a racist.

There are a lot of woolly-minded Guardian readers over there :)

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:35:04 UTC | #581478

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 108 by Richard Dawkins

Blimey Richard! This really has got up your nose, hasn't it? Your comments are usually a great deal more measured. It's not exactly uncommon for a Minister to "rise without trace". I think we can all agree that our political system is "sub-optimal" to put it politely. Tokensim is one possibility (though if the Tories were really just after the muslim vote its interesting that they opted for a female muslim token).

I didn't mean to suggest that the Tories were after the Muslim vote. I think they know that is a lost cause. I suspect that they were trying to live down their reputation as the nasty party, the party of racists, the party of sexists, the Church of England at prayer. More particularly, the ceaseles propaganda campaign against "Islamophobia" corrupts them just as it corrupts so many others. I suspect that the Tory leadership saw an opportunity to kill two, or possibly three, birds with one stone, by elevating this woman to the House of Lords and putting her in the Cabinet.

I repeat, her qualifications for such a meteoric rise, as the youngest member of the House of Lords, are tantamount to zero. As far as I can see, her only distinction is to have stood for election to the House of Commons and lost. That's it.

Apart, of course, from being female, Muslim, and brown. Like I said, killing three birds with one stone.

Richard

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:38:06 UTC | #581479

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 109 by NealOKelly

Comment 104 by MarkOnTheRiver

You see, there’s the thing. Personally I’m against it, mainly because of the tragically fallible nature of the criminal justice system. But if you can’t see the difference between supporting the secular death penalty for, say, child rape, and the islam prescribed death penalty for being a victim of rape (viewed as adultery), then I despair of ever achieving understanding with you.

Of course I can see the difference. But since we weren't provided with a breakdown of what proportion of muslims believe that the death penalty is an appropriate "punishment" for being raped, I am unable to pass judgement on it.

The other statistics provided in the post were a far more damning indictment of muslims than the stat relating to the death penalty.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:38:36 UTC | #581480

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 111 by Stevehill

@brainsys

I await what Warsi actually says in her speech. It may well have been toned down by a nervous Tory Central Office.

I'd be amazed if it were not, given the tenor of the 1,500 removed comments from the Telegraph site. She must by now be aware that a huge body of the British people (not just us new atheists) have no time at all for her arguments, and she's walked into an elephant trap of her own making.

If the Tories want to send a message about so-called Islamophobia, how much more effective would it be if it came from say Justice Minister Ken Clarke? Or even Communities Secretary Eric Pickles?

Maybe Warsi is flying solo on this one...

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:40:22 UTC | #581482

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 110 by Richard Dawkins

The Muslim Council of Britain has just issued the following Press Release:-

The Muslim Council of Britain welcomes the intervention of Minister without Portfolio & Co-Chairman of the Conservative Party, Sayeeda Warsi, for drawing attention to the very real scourge of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hatred. Muslim communities in Britain have been viewing with consternation the gradual build-up of incidents, ranging from clumsy references to Muslim practices in the media (e.g. the recent references to the 'Islamification' of Britain because of conversions), the sensationalist headlines ("Why are 36% of our universities training Muslim terrorists?" - in a recent Sunday paper) and finally the intimidation outside mosques, physical damage to mosques and cemeteries and bodily attacks.

Farooq Murad, Secretary General of the MCB noted, "We particularly welcome Baroness Warsi’s acknowledgement of the role the media plays in this process of normalising Islamophobia, as well as the counter-productiveness of categorisations such as 'moderate' and 'extremist' Muslims. Islamophobia is the number one concern of all Muslims in this country, illustrated recently by an internal survey of issues conducted by the MCB of its affiliates who prioritised rising anti-Muslim hatred as the biggest concern for the community. Responsibility also rests with our political leadership because unfortunately the language often used with reference to Muslims is feeding into stigmatisation of one section of our society."

Richard

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:40:22 UTC | #581481

MrTicketyBoo's Avatar Comment 112 by MrTicketyBoo

Comment 105 by Ignorant Amos :

"Police have seized the remains of the book and a 32-year-old male has been arrested on suspicion of using racially aggravated threatening words or behaviour.

How do they get to that place then?

I would love to know. This confusion between race and religion appears to be common. The six who who were arrested for burning the Koran in Gateshead were arrested under the inciting racial hatred legislation, although I cannot find any more information about how that case has proceeded.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:45:32 UTC | #581484

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 113 by NealOKelly

Comment 107 by Wendy Farts On Her Bible

SUICIDE BOMBING IN DEFENSE OF ISLAM

Justifiable?

Percentage of respondents who answered YES

Lebanon 73% Ivory Coast 56% Nigeria 47% Bangladesh 44% Jordan 43% Pakistan 33% Mali 32% Ghana 30% Uganda 29% Senegal 28% Indonesia 27% Turkey 13%

Do you feel shocked or frightened by the above figures? If you do then you are irrational according to Baroness Warsi. You are simply Islamophobic.

To be fair, she was talking about Islamaphobia in the context of the UK. The views of muslims from Lebanon who have sufferent Israeli artillery attacks because Hamas operates out of its borders are not likely to be all that similar to muslims that live in the UK.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:47:37 UTC | #581486

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 114 by Atheist Mike

That's it I think we just reached the antithesis of the anti-racism struggle of the 20th century. Sounds like we are in dire need of some reactionary reforms lest we adopt the sharia law and all start wearing burkhas.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:48:03 UTC | #581487

MrTicketyBoo's Avatar Comment 115 by MrTicketyBoo

Comment 114 by NealOKelly :

Comment 107 by Wendy Farts On Her Bible

SUICIDE BOMBING IN DEFENSE OF ISLAM

Justifiable?

Percentage of respondents who answered YES

Lebanon 73% Ivory Coast 56% Nigeria 47% Bangladesh 44% Jordan 43% Pakistan 33% Mali 32% Ghana 30% Uganda 29% Senegal 28% Indonesia 27% Turkey 13%

Do you feel shocked or frightened by the above figures? If you do then you are irrational according to Baroness Warsi. You are simply Islamophobic.

To be fair, she was talking about Islamaphobia in the context of the UK. The views of muslims from Lebanon who have sufferent Israeli artillery attacks because Hamas operates out of its borders are not likely to be all that similar to muslims that live in the UK.

I cannot see how being shelled by the Israelis causally leads to thinking suicide bombing in defense of Islam is justifiable.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:50:27 UTC | #581488

bethe123's Avatar Comment 116 by bethe123

Islamic propaganda at it's finest.

The UK now has a politician that denies atrocities of Islam, for that would be the only way for a non-delusional person to maintain the made up term "Islamophobia" describes something real. I don't know what dinner table Warsi was referring to, but the telegraph had to censor the public outcry against her, so she clearly does not dine at the table of her constituents.

Just because Warsi says it is true does not make it so. But we have come to expect nothing less from Islamic propagandists. Her propaganda reminds me of the Iraqi Comical Ali, only this is happening in the UK, and is no laughing matter.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:54:56 UTC | #581490

NealOKelly's Avatar Comment 117 by NealOKelly

Comment 116 by MrTicketyBoo

I cannot see how being shelled by the Israelis causally leads to thinking suicide bombing in defense of Islam is justifiable.

You can't? Really? Fair enough...

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:58:09 UTC | #581491

PrayForMe's Avatar Comment 118 by PrayForMe

This whole thing absolutely terrifies me. There's nothing like whole subsections of society feeling angry and disenfranchised when it comes to starting wars, especially when god is on their side.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:04:05 UTC | #581492

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 119 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 95 by NealOKelly

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make. Either someone is in favour of the death penalty for certain crimes, or they are not.

I think Mark stated my position well in his comment 104 above.

I mentioned it only because muslim views of the death penalty were being used to illustrate something about muslim attitudes as if they are necessarily different from non-mulsims. Fair enough, but it's not unreasonable to point out that majority of the UK population are also in favour of the death penaly.

I think it is unreasonable...the very reason for the whole debate is it's very unreasonableness. Death for being gay? Death for apostasy? Death for adultery? Death for blasphemy? Not only are they not in the same ball park as death for rape, paedophilia, terrorism, adult murder, child murder, child rape or treason, they are not in the same Universe.

I'm all for the death penalty...just not at the moment. When the human race comes up with a 100%, infallible, copper pinned way of proving culpability with no doubt to the identity of the perp...then bring it on. We can then dispense with the expense of protracted appeals and rid the world of "skinwastes" and save the taxpayer to boot.

I make that comment from a position of someone having been incarcerated on the charge of murder by the way, so don't confuse it as being a flippant throwaway remark, I've spent many a long night wrestling with the thought of being an innocent man with my head in the hangman's noose.

Personally, that sickens me.

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:05:04 UTC | #581493

MrTicketyBoo's Avatar Comment 120 by MrTicketyBoo

NealOKelly,

If I were a religious nutter I'm sure I could think of an incredibly cogent argument about Israel being at war with Islam and my self-immolation being a strike back at the crusader pigs, but alas, I am not :)

Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:06:20 UTC | #581494