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Tory chief Baroness Warsi attacks 'bigotry' against Muslims - Comments

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 181 by Atheist Mike

Comment 179 by PurplePanda :

Since a couple of people challenged me on the point...

Dying in a terrorist attack vs dying due to an asteroid impact:

  • Terrorist attack.. 1 in 13,000,000

  • Asteroid impact.. 1 in 500,000

  • Bare in mind the number of people that would die in an asteroid impact. The fact that none have so far doesn't affect the odds.

    Still, it happened too many times to be merely discardable:

    4 September 1972 – Munich Olympic Massacre.

    18 April 1983 - U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.

    26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.

    13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. The single-day attacks resulted in over 250 civilian fatalities and 700 injuries.

    24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.

    25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.

    14 February 1998. The 1998 Coimbatore bombings occurred in the city of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 46 people were killed and over 200 were injured in 13 bomb attacks within a 12 km radius.

    7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.

    12 October 2000 – USS Cole bombing, 56 killed

    11 September 2001 – 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.

    13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on India’s parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.

    3 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured

    9 March 2002 – Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.

    7 May 2002 – Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.

    24 September 2002 – Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.

    12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured. 16 May 2004 – Casablanca Attacks – 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.

    11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)

    3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.

    2 November 2004 – Ritual murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.

    4 February 2005 – Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.

    7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.

    23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.

    29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.

    9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.

    7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. Uttar Pradesh government officials.

    11 July 2006. Mumbai, India. 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings were a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai (formerly known as Bombay). 209 people lost their lives and over 700 were injured in the attacks.

    26 July 2008. Ahmedabad, India. Islamic militants detonate at least 16 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 49 dead and 160 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence. Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of militants suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India.

    26 November 2008. Mumbai, India. Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a serious of coordinated attacks on India’s largest city and financial capital. A group calling itself the Deccan Mujaheddin claims responsibility, however, the government of India suspects Islamic militants based in Pakistan are responsible.

    I don't know about asteroids but I think this fear is amply justified.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:11:43 UTC | #581600

    Sample's Avatar Comment 182 by Sample

    I believe we have a right to know where she, a Cabinet minister, stands on these issues and the actions perpetrated by many of her co-religionists here in the UK, including child abuse (scotsman 2010)

    Again, I'm not keen on British politics, but say you get your wish (which I support). Suppose her answer is couched in theological mumbo jumbo (which it will be) and then, having your question murkily answered, business as usual commences.

    The environment (House of Lords) that will allow the Baroness to save face on that question might perhaps distress me more than a single voice.

    Mike

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:14:18 UTC | #581602

    green and dying's Avatar Comment 183 by green and dying

    Comment 167 by Poe78 :

    You do realise that this is true for Christianity too, right? Extremist Muslims may be better at shouting infidel, but that's no excuse to hate that entire religion more than the other.

    Why isn't that a reason to hate Islam more? Why do people want all religions to be equally hateable?

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:16:36 UTC | #581603

    bethe123's Avatar Comment 184 by bethe123

    What about an open letter, to one of the major newspapers, Richard? -- scotsman2010

    Yes, RD could do that. However, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, as an apostate and woman, would make a more stinging critique, even though some mistakenly think she does not rate as one of our most influential atheists. (lol)

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:17:00 UTC | #581604

    green and dying's Avatar Comment 185 by green and dying

    Comment 185 by bethe123 :

    Yes, RD could do that. However, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, as an apostate and woman, would make a more stinging critique, even though some mistakenly think she does not rate as one of our most influential atheists. (lol)

    She isn't British though.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:21:36 UTC | #581608

    Fujikoma's Avatar Comment 186 by Fujikoma

    Blockquote Comment 179 by PurplePanda

    Since a couple of people challenged me on the point...

    Dying in a terrorist attack vs dying due to an asteroid impact:

    Terrorist attack.. 1 in 13,000,000

    Asteroid impact.. 1 in 500,000

    Bare in mind the number of people that would die in an asteroid impact. The fact that none have so far doesn't affect the odds.

    So less than 1000 people have been killed by terrorists (given 13 billion as an excessively high world population which includes the previously living and now historically dead)??? The asteroid impact number is purely speculative, as there is no baseline to draw that conclusion because of the randomness and time frame of the event itself (i.e. it's on par with Drake's equation, though it may be reasonable, not enough sound data exists to give a definative number). I'd say those odds are suspect.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:21:38 UTC | #581609

    ksmatharu's Avatar Comment 187 by ksmatharu

    When Christianity is criticised (and it’s something that do often) I'm sure that those doing the criticising feel that the potential threat of violence against them is quite low. But if Islam is being criticised, the potential threat of violence is such that it can focus the mind. Additionally, it can be pretty much guaranteed that criticism against Islam will be called “racist” which I find bizarre as Islam is not dictated by genes. Islam, like other religions, is an absurd concept especially in its current state which generates (and condones?) a not-insignificant number of grotesque acts and behaviours.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:23:18 UTC | #581612

    Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 188 by Ignorant Amos

    Comment 179 by PurplePanda

    Since a couple of people challenged me on the point...

    Dying in a terrorist attack vs dying due to an Asteroid impact:

    Terrorist attack.. 1 in 13,000,000

    1 in 9.3 million according to the link but still surprising. I myself, have had a number of friends and family, murdered and maimed by terrorists. Perhaps the odds should be assessed along geographical lines....I'm sure the odds between an Amazonion tribesman and myself are distinctly different for terrorist attack, but similar if contemplating an Asteroid strike.

    Asteroid impact.. 1 in 500,000

    I see that the death rate for Asteroid strike is adjusted for secondary effects such as Tsunami. Again, still surprising, given that no one has ever been killed by Asteroid and a very large number have been by terrorist.

    Bare in mind the number of people that would die in an asteroid impact. The fact that none have so far doesn't affect the odds.

    I'm sure an expert on probability and odds can rebut your evidence better than I, but I will say I have been amusingly surprised, good one for the pub at the weekend.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:34:23 UTC | #581616

    mlgatheist's Avatar Comment 189 by mlgatheist

    Richard,

    I really dislike disagreeing with you. However, female genital mutilation is not really based on Islam. My wife is from Indonesia and I have asked around and none of them know of anyone who does that in their country. From all that I have read and seen, it seems like it predates islam and is mostly found in Africa and to a lesser extent the Middle East.

    I do hope, but doubts, that she asks for forgiveness in using the term Islamaphobia. It isn't irrational to fear what extreme muslims have been doing and will continue to do.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:35:12 UTC | #581617

    PurplePanda's Avatar Comment 190 by PurplePanda

    @ Fujikoma

    Yes 1 in 13m does seem odd. Also I misquoted it, it actually says 1 in 9.3m, not that that makes much difference. The asteroid figure isnt as speculative as Drake because there have been impacts in the past.

    Either way, dying in a terrorist attack is incredibly unlikely and fears are all out of proportion. Of course the chances are more likely if you live in a country that has decided the crusades still aren't over.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:39:05 UTC | #581618

    kev_s's Avatar Comment 191 by kev_s

    Asteroid impact.. 1 in 500,000

    Wow! Someone is being asteroidophobic!

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:43:03 UTC | #581619

    Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 192 by Richard Dawkins

    There is a brief interview with Baroness Warsi here. The interviewer, predictably (since this is the BBC, which is notoriously soft on religion) gives her a very easy time of it.

    Richard

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:43:28 UTC | #581620

    PurplePanda's Avatar Comment 193 by PurplePanda

    @ Ignorant Amos

    You may be right about an expert on probability, buts I'm only quoting what I found.

    The BBC made a interesting Horizon documentary about asteroids recently. You can see it on youtube

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b8Y-0U7IC4

    Its also about how they are life bringers, but as for impacts there have probably been more than most people realise, they just happen to have decimated places where nobody lives, like the siberian wastelands.

    Very interesting stuff.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:44:28 UTC | #581621

    Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 194 by Stafford Gordon

    Comment Removed by Author

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:45:07 UTC | #581622

    Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 195 by Richard Dawkins

    Comment 191 by mlgatheist :

    Richard,

    I really dislike disagreeing with you. However, female genital mutilation is not really based on Islam. My wife is from Indonesia and I have asked around and none of them know of anyone who does that in their country. From all that I have read and seen, it seems like it predates islam and is mostly found in Africa and to a lesser extent the Middle East.

    Even if you are right (and I am not necessarily conceding the point) that FGM itself is not based on Islam, I strongly suspect that the British police turning a blind eye to it is very strongly based on islamophobophobia – the abject terror of being thought islamophobic.

    Richard

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:48:19 UTC | #581624

    Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 196 by Ignorant Amos

    Comment 191 by mlgatheist

    Richard,

    I really dislike disagreeing with you. However, female genital mutilation is not really based on Islam. My wife is from Indonesia and I have asked around and none of them know of anyone who does that in their country. From all that I have read and seen, it seems like it predates islam and is mostly found in Africa and to a lesser extent the Middle East.

    It is not that it is based in Islam, it is prevalent in cultures that are predominantly Muslim, but not exclusive. The impotency of the authorities to intervene is one of fear from offending. Offending who one might ask?

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:48:49 UTC | #581625

    bethe123's Avatar Comment 197 by bethe123

    Either way, dying in a terrorist attack is incredibly unlikely and fears are all out of proportion-- PurplePanda

    Hmmm. Quoting statistics, are we?

    Let's look at a different sample space then. Probability of getting a knife through your chest if you embark on filming a movie critical of Islam? Seems unacceptably non-zero...as Ayaan Hirsi Ali can tell you.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:49:19 UTC | #581626

    Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 198 by Ignorant Amos

    Comment 195 by PurplePanda

    Seen the Horizon show, but thanks for the link all the same.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:52:03 UTC | #581627

    green and dying's Avatar Comment 199 by green and dying

    Comment 191 by mlgatheist :

    Richard,

    I really dislike disagreeing with you. However, female genital mutilation is not really based on Islam. My wife is from Indonesia and I have asked around and none of them know of anyone who does that in their country. From all that I have read and seen, it seems like it predates islam and is mostly found in Africa and to a lesser extent the Middle East.

    Everything in Islam pre-dates Islam. Islam didn't invent God or prayer or misogyny or domestic abuse or slavery. Saying a religion causes something isn't saying it invented it or that it wouldn't or doesn't exist without that religion.

    But you are right that FGM isn't instructed in the Quran or the Hadith (though it could be argued that it is allowed according to the Hadith). Neither is forced marriage. Yet when you have a religion that encourages the beliefs that men own women, that violence against women is a great way to control them, that their sexualities must be controlled at all costs, is it really a surprise that FGM and forced marriage are condoned or encouraged in many Muslim countries? Would there be so much of it without those beliefs that Islam encourage? Religions have effects other than causing actions that they explicitly instruct.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:52:57 UTC | #581629

    mozzy_dee's Avatar Comment 200 by mozzy_dee

    Is it appropriate to ask any Muslim who claims, strongly, there exists Islamophobia in the society in which they live, how they feel about Jews and about homosexuals?

    Then is it appropriate to point out Muslims may be marginalized in a secular society for failing, on religious grounds, to accept fellow citizens who are Jewish and who are homosexual?

    Allowing one group to pick and choose who they validate as acceptable while crying out they, themselves, are being persecuted socially is just ... well ... beyond ironic.

    I'd imagine this may be how Christopher Hitchens would open a debate with Baroness Warsi: How do you feel about / how do you see the homosexual community in Britain? And what of Israeli Jews or the Jewish community in Britain who support Israel?

    Here in the U.S. there are many, many more violent crimes committed against black people and against Jewish people than there are against Muslims yet the drum banging about Islamophobia is white noise in print and in broadcast news.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:53:03 UTC | #581630

    Peter Grant's Avatar Comment 201 by Peter Grant

    Comment 138 by AtheistEgbert :

    This line "Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hatred" confuses two separate concerns: The first term Islamophobia is equiocated with the term anti-Muslim hatred. All of us, I should hope fully condemn anti-Muslim hatred or hatred toward any individual simply because of their beliefs. However, hatred of those beliefs or ideals is certainly not the same thing, and thus it is equivalent to censorship and blasphemy. I'm pretty sure plenty of muslims hate the beliefs of non-muslims, or hate ex-muslims, if they're willing to justify the death penalty for them.

    This is exactly right.

    Comment 146 by jez999

    Nah, I think you're playing with words here. If you hate someone's beliefs (especially deeply-held ones that are unlikely to change), you're going to end up hating that person, in practice. I think it's quite disingenuous/patronising/spineless to say, 'I hate your beliefs but I don't hate you.'

    What is the point of hating people, what's it likely to achieve? One of the main reasons for hating beliefs is for the harm they cause to those who believe them.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:57:44 UTC | #581632

    danconquer's Avatar Comment 202 by danconquer

    Comment 196 by Stafford Gordon :

    It seems that the Telgraph is already Kow Towing by editing it's content.

    We shouldn't really be too surprised about this. Although most of the people running the Telegraph have different views from Ms Warsi on the tecnicalities of how best to appease their imaginary diety, at a wider level they share alot more in common... Anti-gay, anti-children, anti-drugs, anti-loneparents and anti-reason generally. So it's not surprising that they decide to spare her from having it with both barrels.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:58:02 UTC | #581633

    mirandaceleste's Avatar Comment 203 by mirandaceleste

    Comment 191 by mlgatheist :

    Richard,

    I really dislike disagreeing with you. However, female genital mutilation is not really based on Islam. My wife is from Indonesia and I have asked around and none of them know of anyone who does that in their country. From all that I have read and seen, it seems like it predates islam and is mostly found in Africa and to a lesser extent the Middle East.

    Some relevant information: Indonesia: Report on Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) or Female Genital Cutting (FGC)

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:59:27 UTC | #581634

    Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 204 by Stafford Gordon

    I wonder why the Telegraph is editing its content.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:59:37 UTC | #581635

    Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 205 by Ignorant Amos

    Just watched the Beeb interview....she talks some pish....mind you I shouldn't be surprised as I've witnessed her rubbish a number of times previously, noticeably as a guest on Questiontime.

    She says that just because there are some criminal elements in Islam there is no reason to infer blame on the religion (paraphrasing). There is when the crime is carried out in the name of Islam. Such blethering from a supposedly educated person.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:05:17 UTC | #581638

    Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 206 by Nunbeliever

    This woman is definately starting to get on my nerves!!! She ought to move down to a real muslim country and live there for a few years and see what it is actually like in a muslim country.. especially for women!

    “And in the road, as a woman walks past wearing a burka, the passers-by think: 'That woman’s either oppressed or is making a political statement’.”

    Yes, and...? I think that is a perfectly reasonable conclusion. A person can be brain-washed into accepting oppression. That's nothing new!

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:18:28 UTC | #581643

    PurplePanda's Avatar Comment 207 by PurplePanda

    Comment 199 by bethe123 :

    Either way, dying in a terrorist attack is incredibly unlikely and fears are all out of proportion-- PurplePanda

    Hmmm. Quoting statistics, are we?

    Let's look at a different sample space then. Probability of getting a knife through your chest if you embark on filming a movie critical of Islam? Seems unacceptably non-zero...as Ayaan Hirsi Ali can tell you.

    All I'm talking about are people's actual reasons for disliking Islam. One of which is fear of terrorism, which is an irrational fear. That's all.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:24:15 UTC | #581648

    plasma-engineer's Avatar Comment 208 by plasma-engineer

    I only heard 30 minutes of BBC Radio 4's (normally rational) Today programme this morning. During that time, the only respite from religious nonsense (which included this story) was the sports report. I dislike sport almost as much! Was it a 'slow news day' or are we spiraling into irrationality? Either way I went off to work feeling stressed already!

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:30:21 UTC | #581655

    kev_s's Avatar Comment 209 by kev_s

    Comparing the relative risks of dying from a muslim terrorist attack or from an asteroid impact in order to show that "islamophobia" is irrational misses an important point. It is the risk of having to live under Islamic laws that is terrifying and worth fighting against.

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:46:40 UTC | #581662

    scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 210 by scotsman2010

    Comment 211 by kev_s :

    Comparing the relative risks of dying from a muslim terrorist attack or from an asteroid impact in order to show that "islamophobia" is irrational misses an important point. It is the risk of having to live under Islamic laws that is terrifying and worth fighting against.

    Agreed. People in the west have struggled hard to build the relatively decent, tolerant and fair societies we currently live in. "Sharia Law" would take us back about 1500 years!

    Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:54:52 UTC | #581667