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← It's not a phobia – it's rational to fear Islam

It's not a phobia – it's rational to fear Islam - Comments

nancynancy's Avatar Comment 1 by nancynancy

Excellent article. As an American, I've never read anything by Minette Marrin before, but I agree with every word of her short and to the point essay.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:56:37 UTC | #583160

BLB's Avatar Comment 2 by BLB

I tried to blog on this exact subject this weekend, but I couldn't make it read right. Fortunately Ms Marrin did make her article read right. A rational fear (or at least caution) of Islam is fully justified.

Obviously, many individual Muslims have made the necessary accommodations to western values, but the system itself when followed rigidly can not and will not. Strict Islam is incompatible with western society, for the reasons given in the above article.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:58:03 UTC | #583161

ZenDruid's Avatar Comment 3 by ZenDruid

It is misleading to apply the label "islamophobia" to a quite civilized revulsion to savage behavior.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:58:20 UTC | #583162

ordinaryjo's Avatar Comment 4 by ordinaryjo

I used to struggle to see why we needed a special term for football hooligans, either our society accepts or rejects behaviours; the double standards are simply unfair.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:12:05 UTC | #583167

Net's Avatar Comment 5 by Net

This is beautifully put:

This is what makes people in this country wary of Islam in many of its forms, in one place or another: the centrality and inescapability of religion, the loss of freedom of thought and expression, the harshness of sharia (Islamic law), the patriarchal suppression of women, including their inequality under sharia, the medieval punishments for apostasy, adultery and even theft, the insistence on a cruel form of animal slaughter, the violence and anti-Semitism of many sacred texts, the disinclination to integrate with the host culture and finally — one can argue — the incompatibility of theocratic Islam with democracy. To find all those things alarming as possibilities is not to be Islamophobic or racist. It is to be reasonable from a western point of view.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:14:28 UTC | #583168

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 6 by Steve Zara

Good. This is what is needed to counter Warsi's nonsense. There is much here for Warsi to respond to. I am eager to see if she does, although I think patience may be needed.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:23:42 UTC | #583172

                                                       rui's Avatar Comment 7 by rui

I'm nazistophobic. There are things in Islam that are worse than Nazism. Like a God who gives an eternal punishment for things like stop believing in him. Anyway, i don't care if they believe in such things. but They should be fought (and mocked) when they try their nazi ways. And their Capo's, like this Baroness Warsi, should be exposed.

Islam seems a little different. Christianism gives us the possibility of separation of church and state, like luke 20:25: "to Cesar the things which are Cesar's, and to God the things which are God's". Then we have that thing jesus said that it's best to pray away from othe peoples's eyes. No such thing in Islam, i guess...

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:30:31 UTC | #583176

William33's Avatar Comment 8 by William33

I enjoy this type of open discussion.

Isn't it more alarming when your critics fall silent?

When your critics fall silent; the knives will be out

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:41:52 UTC | #583180

scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 9 by scotsman2010

This all makes total sense to me.

The fact that so many young British-born Muslims would like Sharia Law in the UK, death for apostasy etc, must be alarming to anyone concerned about human rights and a civilized society.

Baroness Warsi should say if she supports these things herself. She's bottling out if she doesn't.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:43:03 UTC | #583181

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 10 by HughCaldwell

Strict Islam is incompatible with western society Comment 2 by BLB

Really? You can't tolerate the slogan, " The god of Abraham is God and Mohammed his messenger", the muttering of brief prayers, giving money to the poor, stuffing yourself with food in Ramadan evenings, and holidaying in Mecca ?

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:48:50 UTC | #583182

mmurray's Avatar Comment 11 by mmurray

Has anyone read the whole thing? Is it worth paying ? That link doesn't work by the way.

Michael

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:51:46 UTC | #583184

bethe123's Avatar Comment 12 by bethe123

Now there's a real Baroness... her comments do remind me a little of comments I have seen on RD.net...

Not important who says it...only that it gets said.

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:54:50 UTC | #583186

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 13 by HughCaldwell

Comment 6 by Steve Zara This is what is needed to counter Warsi's nonsense

Warsi's speech is not very cogent but it deserves more attention than the ramblings of a journalist with no discernable knowledge of the subject, personal or academic,

Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:55:30 UTC | #583187

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 14 by Bernard Hurley

Comment 10 by HughCaldwell :

Strict Islam is incompatible with western society Comment 2 by BLB

Really? You can't tolerate the slogan, " The god of Abraham is God and Mohammed his messenger", the muttering of brief prayers, giving money to the poor, stuffing yourself with food in Ramadan evenings, and holidaying in Mecca ?

I can't tolerate a seven year old girl having their clitoris sawn off with no anaesthetic or even basic hygiene for no good reason.

Of course the barmy Warsi brigade would have it that I am only so "racist and islamophobic" because the majority of Muslims have brown skins. O.K. then, suppose a predominantly while cult did the same, then presumably it would not be racist fo me to criticise them. Does Warsi and her ilk seriously think that it is racist to apply the same standards of care to brown skinned and white skinned children?

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:00:43 UTC | #583189

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 15 by Steve Zara

Warsi's speech is not very cogent but it deserves more attention than the ramblings of a journalist with no discernable knowledge of the subject, personal or academic,

I fear Islam. I find the views of Muslim youth in the UK frightening. I fear that there will be concessions to "Muslim culture" by well-meaning but deeply misguided politicians so that the rights of so many within that culture will be sacrificed. I fear that there will be increased violence against those who bravely come out as gay, or who renounce Islam. I worry that politicians and police won't want to get involved, and by the time they do, there will have been many tragedies.

There is a serious clash of cultures going on. It has to be faced. Those like Warsi who are blaming that clash on those who reject the values of Islam are seriously and dangerously mistaken.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:04:50 UTC | #583192

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 16 by Bernard Hurley

There is a serious clash of cultures going on. It has to be faced. Those like Warsi who are blaming that clash on those who reject the values of Islam are seriously and dangerously mistaken.

Mistaken? Deranged is the word that comes to mind.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:07:42 UTC | #583193

green and dying's Avatar Comment 17 by green and dying

Comment 10 by HughCaldwell :

Really? You can't tolerate the slogan, " The god of Abraham is God and Mohammed his messenger", the muttering of brief prayers, giving money to the poor, stuffing yourself with food in Ramadan evenings, and holidaying in Mecca ?

No, because I've read the message that this god's messenger brought.

Don't pretend that all you need to do is say the Shahadah. You have the believe it. You have to believe that the Quran is God's message. I won't tolerate this belief because it has more consequences than just some harmless cultural practices.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:08:48 UTC | #583194

scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 18 by scotsman2010

Comment 10 by HughCaldwell :

Strict Islam is incompatible with western society Comment 2 by BLB

Really? You can't tolerate the slogan, " The god of Abraham is God and Mohammed his messenger", the muttering of brief prayers, giving money to the poor, stuffing yourself with food in Ramadan evenings, and holidaying in Mecca ?

I have to say that's somewhat disingenuous Hugh. Do you really think people would be concerned about Islam if that was all there was to it?

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:09:35 UTC | #583195

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 19 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 13 by HughCaldwell :

Comment 6 by Steve Zara This is what is needed to counter Warsi's nonsense

Warsi's speech is not very cogent but it deserves more attention than the ramblings of a journalist with no discernable knowledge of the subject, personal or academic,

He said without a hint of irony.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:12:39 UTC | #583196

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 20 by Steve Zara

Let me put it another way.

I don't fear Islam. I fear a culture with near universal homophobia.

I don't fear Islam. I fear a culture where the majority want a faith-based legal system.

I don't fear Islam. I fear a culture that suppresses women.

I don't fear Islam. I fear a culture that puts religious views above science.

I don't fear Islam. I fear a culture that considers death an appropriate punishment for changing your mind.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:17:03 UTC | #583201

scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 21 by scotsman2010

Comment 15 by Steve Zara :

I fear that there will be concessions to "Muslim culture" by well-meaning but deeply misguided politicians so that the rights of so many within that culture will be sacrificed.

That's a real concern. It doesn't help that the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks that should happen too. link text

We can't let that happen. We need secular laws which apply to, and protect, every citizen. No favour for faith-heads!

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:18:32 UTC | #583202

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 22 by Bernard Hurley

Comment 18 by scotsman2010 :

Comment 10 by HughCaldwell :

Strict Islam is incompatible with western society Comment 2 by BLB

Really? You can't tolerate the slogan, " The god of Abraham is God and Mohammed his messenger", the muttering of brief prayers, giving money to the poor, stuffing yourself with food in Ramadan evenings, and holidaying in Mecca ?

I have to say that's somewhat disingenuous Hugh. Do you really think people would be concerned about Islam if that was all there was to it?

But Warsi thinks that we are concerned about Islam because most Muslims have brown skins; maybe Hugh thinks the same.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:19:18 UTC | #583203

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 23 by Bernard Hurley

Comment 21 by scotsman2010 :

Comment 15 by Steve Zara :

I fear that there will be concessions to "Muslim culture" by well-meaning but deeply misguided politicians so that the rights of so many within that culture will be sacrificed.

That's a real concern. It doesn't help that the Archbishop of Cantenbury thinks that should happen too. link text

But the faith-heads have to stick together. After all, they do all worship the same God!

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:23:25 UTC | #583205

CharlieOw's Avatar Comment 24 by CharlieOw

HughCaldwell is either in denial or very PC & naive.

Otherwise I believe he could just be a troll...

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:25:20 UTC | #583207

Zelig's Avatar Comment 25 by Zelig

Perhaps i'm missing something very pertinent and profound in this? If so, i'd be grateful if someone could kindly point out either the moral or intellectual lacuna in my argument.

If society X has a genuine and deep attachment to certain values (e.g. secularism, freedom of speech and conscience, legal equality, one law for all) it must of necessity follow that it will combat any ideology, religion, metaphysic, which rejects these professed axioms. It would do this in a spirit of affirmation and not negation, and would do so without the slightest apology.

The "west" is therefore only anxious, confused and hesitant about Islam because it no longer actually genuinely believes in itself. This I take to be self-evident. This reads to me like a textbook case of decadence. None of our supposed values are widely considered non-negotiable, everything, in principle, is up for grabs. We bend to every strong (and not so strong) wind, and only our relative economic success hides our vacuum in the realm of values.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:27:25 UTC | #583208

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 26 by Neodarwinian

In what other context could you find 18 to 24 year old people more theocratic than their elders?

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:29:08 UTC | #583211

BMJT's Avatar Comment 27 by BMJT

Comment 26 by Neodarwinian :

In what other context could you find 18 to 24 year old people more theocratic than their elders?

And how/why is it happening?

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:39:29 UTC | #583214

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 28 by Alan4discussion

Comment 15 by Steve Zara :

I fear that there will be concessions to "Muslim culture" by well-meaning but deeply misguided politicians so that the rights of so many within that culture will be sacrificed.

Another failed politician, (shoved into the House of Lords as an expediency) pulling the old, " play the racist card " trick to silence critics of her imbecility!

MINETTE MARRIN'S - SUNDAY TIMES article makes very good points.

Comment 21 by scotsman2010

It doesn't help that the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks that should happen too.

Woo-Heads United, claim woo-head privileged stupidity dispensations for themselves against reasoned criticism:- thus fighting the common foe of evidenced rationality!

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:41:19 UTC | #583215

HughCaldwell's Avatar Comment 29 by HughCaldwell

Do you really think people would be concerned about Islam if that was all there was to it?Comment 18 by scotsman2010

These are the five pillars on which Muslims, supposedly, build their lives. Does Baroness Warsi cause you great concern? Do you dismiss her claims to have suffered from Islamophobia?

It's very true that there are Muslims in countries we have invaded who have an tendency towards violence. The Afghan army and the Iraqi army display just this tendency and it is not only acceptable but something that Americans and Europeans are actively promoting. It's true that the poor and uneducated are prone to religious conservatism. I would suggest that it would be more useful to pursue policies which would help to raise the per capita income of Pakistanis from $2,400 closer to the $35,000 of the UK. As to tribal practices, such as honour killing and female genital mutilation, these should be opposed whatever the religion of those concerned, obviously.

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:44:13 UTC | #583216

scotsman2010's Avatar Comment 30 by scotsman2010

Comment 25 by david2 :

If society X has a genuine and deep attachment to certain values (e.g. secularism, freedom of speech and conscience, legal equality, one law for all) it must of necessity follow that it will combat any ideology, religion, metaphysic, which rejects these professed axioms. It would do this in a spirit of affirmation and not negation, and would do so without the slightest apology.

I agree that's not happening as it should. These values sound good to me and I would like to see them protected and not compromised.

Maybe it's the cultural respect agenda - that we must respect differing ideologies and values, no matter how distasteful, because they are "part of a culture".

Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:46:20 UTC | #583217