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Anti-mutilation drive 'at risk' - Comments

aball's Avatar Comment 1 by aball

The only way to stop it is for the police to enforce existing laws. There is no need of a "government coordinator" for this. All it takes is less political correctness and more direct action.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:41:49 UTC | #609578

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 2 by Stevehill

Law enforcement is a matter for the police and prosecutors.

How many people have been prosecuted as a result of this person's role? I think I know the answer.

If there are no measurable benefits, it's a non-job.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:42:01 UTC | #609579

erindorothy's Avatar Comment 3 by erindorothy

Just more speechless, furious... at a loss! what the fuck is wrong with humanity?

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:43:05 UTC | #609580

danconquer's Avatar Comment 4 by danconquer

Comment 1 by aball :

There is no need of a "government coordinator" for this. All it takes is less political correctness and more direct action.

and

Comment 2 by Stevehill :

Law enforcement is a matter for the police and prosecutors.

Drug abuse is also a criminal offence, but most people recognise the need for other organisations that work to co-ordinate between agencies, raise awareness, campaign and educate. The same is true of domestic violence, forced marriages, child sex offences and rape... All of them serious crimes but ones that are not - indeed cannot - be best dealt with purely by police and prosecutors and so merit the involvement of other forces.

The charities working to stop this diabolical practice are the ones saying they could do with this co-ordinating role from government. That's good enough reason to provide it, I think.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 07:59:50 UTC | #609585

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 5 by Richard Dawkins

Presumably we shall hear all the usual accommodationist bleats about "Nothing to do with Islam", and "It's cultural, not religious" and 'Islam doesn't approve the practice".

Whether or not Islam approves the practice depends – as with the death penalty for apostasy – on which 'scholar' you talk to. Islamic 'scholar'? What a joke. What a sick, oxymoronic joke. Islamic 'scholar'!

It is of course true that not all Muslims mutilate their daughters, or approve it. But I conjecture that it is true that virtually all, if not literally all, the 24,000 girls referred to come from Muslim families. And all, or virtually all those who wield the razor blade (or the broken glass or whatever it is) are devout Muslims. And above all, the reason the police turn a blind eye to this disgusting practice is that they THINK it is sanctioned by Islam, or they think it is no business of anybody outside the 'community', and they are TERRIFIED of being called 'Islamophobic' or racist.

Richard

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:15:28 UTC | #609589

mmurray's Avatar Comment 6 by mmurray

Comment 1 by aball :

The only way to stop it is for the police to enforce existing laws. There is no need of a "government coordinator" for this. All it takes is less political correctness and more direct action.

I often read posts saying this. This is a very secret crime and it's extremely difficult to detect if it has occurred. What would you recommend police do that they are not doing now ?

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:35:52 UTC | #609591

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 7 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 6 by mmurray

What would you recommend police do that they are not doing now ?

Invstigate the crime, arrest and prosecute the perpetrators, and have the courts dish out extensive prison senteces to the guilty parties pour encourage les autres might be a start.

But I'm probably just being old fashioned.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:44:38 UTC | #609594

aball's Avatar Comment 8 by aball

Comment 6 by mmurray :

Comment 1 by aball :

The only way to stop it is for the police to enforce existing laws. There is no need of a "government coordinator" for this. All it takes is less political correctness and more direct action.

I often read posts saying this. This is a very secret crime and it's extremely difficult to detect if it has occurred. What would you recommend police do that they are not doing now ?

Michael

I agree that it may be difficult to catch people in the act. But the authorities must have some idea of who actually performs these "operations". Presumably girls who have undergone such surgery require medical help after the act. Maybe it should be made a reportable offence so that doctors have to notify the police that such and such a 10 year old has recently had FGM.

We can't just say its difficult to detect so lets do nothing.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:45:41 UTC | #609595

Dr. monster's Avatar Comment 9 by Dr. monster

can they not go round schools and do inspections and then prosecute the families? it sounds barbaric but it would put an end to it.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:50:08 UTC | #609598

mmurray's Avatar Comment 10 by mmurray

Comment 7 by MarkOnTheRiver :

Comment 6 by mmurray

What would you recommend police do that they are not doing now ?

Invstigate the crime, arrest and prosecute the perpetrators, and have the courts dish out extensive prison senteces to the guilty parties pour encourage les autres might be a start.

But I'm probably just being old fashioned.

You have to detect the crime has occurred.

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:54:23 UTC | #609601

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 11 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 10 by mmurray

You have to detect the crime has occurred.

Yes, young girls with recently mutilated genitalia are so hard to spot aren't they. Especially if you're not looking too hard, for fear of "offending".

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:58:15 UTC | #609603

mmurray's Avatar Comment 12 by mmurray

Comment 8 by aball :

I agree that it may be difficult to catch people in the act. But the authorities must have some idea of who actually performs these "operations". Presumably girls who have undergone such surgery require medical help after the act.

I don't think that is generally the case.

Maybe it should be made a reportable offence so that doctors have to notify the police that such and such a 10 year old has recently had FGM.

I would be really surprised if it is not notifiable now but you are right if it isn't it certainly should be.

We can't just say its difficult to detect so lets do nothing.

Who is saying that ?

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:58:43 UTC | #609604

mmurray's Avatar Comment 13 by mmurray

Comment 11 by MarkOnTheRiver :

Comment 10 by mmurray

You have to detect the crime has occurred.

Yes, young girls with recently mutilated genitalia are so hard to spot aren't they. Especially if you're not looking too hard, for fear of offending.

You have to look. Who is looking if they don't take their daughters to the doctor and even then a vaginal inspection is hardly a routine part of any doctors visit.

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 08:59:50 UTC | #609605

mmurray's Avatar Comment 14 by mmurray

Comment 9 by Dr. monster :

can they not go round schools and do inspections and then prosecute the families? it sounds barbaric but it would put an end to it.

That would certainly work but I can imagine a lot of opposition to a decision to check the genitals of every young girl at school. You would have to do it every year. That is never going to be politically acceptable.

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:02:09 UTC | #609606

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 15 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 13 by mmurray

You have to look. Who is looking if they don't take their daughters to the doctor and even then a vaginal inspection is hardly a routine part of any doctors visit.

What? None of these girls go to school? If a teacher suspects any kind of child abuse, they are expected to act on that suspicion.

Do you honestly think that the physical symptoms of genital mutilation are so undetectable, that a teacher, who is made aware of the practice and its consequences, would have not the slightest suspicion and raise an alarm?

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:07:53 UTC | #609609

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 16 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 14 by mmurray

Comment 9 by Dr. monster :

can they not go round schools and do inspections and then prosecute the families? it sounds barbaric but it would put an end to it.

That would certainly work but I can imagine a lot of opposition to a decision to check the genitals of every young girl at school. You would have to do it every year. That is never going to be politically acceptable.

Sorry to be blunt Michael, but fuck the political acceptability.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:09:52 UTC | #609610

mmurray's Avatar Comment 17 by mmurray

Comment 16 by MarkOnTheRiver :

That would certainly work but I can imagine a lot of opposition to a decision to check the genitals of every young girl at school. You would have to do it every year. That is never going to be politically acceptable.

Sorry to be blunt Michael, but fuck the political acceptability.

If it isn't politically acceptable it won't happen. So sure fuck political acceptability but where does that get us with eradicating this disgusting practice.

Personally I would go for inspections on girls in a certain age group travelling to certain countries both on exit and return. There are already UK laws making it illegal to take a girl overseas for FGM. If the parents don't want the inspection to take place they don't have to travel.

Going back to your comment about teachers do you have examples of teachers who are too worried about being accused of being racist or similar to report a suspicion? I don't know any teachers in the UK so happy to be educated on this. I've just never seen this problem as easily solved as everybody else seems to think it is.

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:16:25 UTC | #609614

Anvil's Avatar Comment 18 by Anvil

Years ago, working within poor communities in the North East of England and confronted with domestic violence and physical abuse of children, I was often told - usually by the perpetrator - "What's it got to do with you!"

This was more or less the response of the Police, (and in this sense, the government) too.

Sadly, this was usually the view of the victim, also.

It took years of coordinated action (Expensive adverts on national TV. Local poster campaigns. Pressure on local Police forces, and local & national government etc') to raise a general awareness that these actions were crimes punishable by lengthy prison sentences and further curtailment of freedoms rather than cultural or familial business.

A national TV advert funded and coordinated by central government saying that Female Genital Mutilation is a crime would do much more than inform the perpetrators of these crimes. It gives the victims a voice, too.

Anvil.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:20:14 UTC | #609616

aball's Avatar Comment 19 by aball

Comment 15 by MarkOnTheRiver :

Comment 13 by mmurray

You have to look. Who is looking if they don't take their daughters to the doctor and even then a vaginal inspection is hardly a routine part of any doctors visit.

What? None of these girls go to school? If a teacher suspects any kind of child abuse, they are expected to act on that suspicion.

Do you honestly think that the physical symptoms of genital mutilation are so undetectable, that a teacher, who is made aware of the practice and its consequences, would have not the slightest suspicion and raise an alarm?

I suspect that the kind of famillies that prescribe FGM for their daughters also send them to a nice respectable fundamentalist islamic school. Teachers in those kind of schools are more likely to support FGM, not report it!

Certainly the parents should be prosecuted and it should be made known that sending girls overseas for the operation will not shield them from prosecution.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:26:53 UTC | #609617

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 20 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 17 by mmurray

Comment 16 by MarkOnTheRiver :

That would certainly work but I can imagine a lot of opposition to a decision to check the genitals of every young girl at school. You would have to do it every year. That is never going to be politically acceptable.

Sorry to be blunt Michael, but fuck the political acceptability.

If it isn't politically acceptable it won't happen.

Of course not. No votes in protecting mutilated children, and plenty to be lost by pissing off the mutilators.

Going back to your comment about teachers do you have examples of teachers who are too worried about being accused of being racist or similar to report a suspicion?

No I don’t, proving a negative is a tad hard :o)

I was offering a conjecture based on, I thought, common sense. These attacks leave horrific wounds, and yet it would seem that none are being reported by adults in close daily contact with the victims. Is there a link? To me, common sense says yes, but I’m willing to be proved wrong.

I don't know any teachers in the UK so happy to be educated on this. I've just never seen this problem as easily solved as everybody else seems to think it is.

Especially if it’s so easy to just look the other way.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:32:27 UTC | #609621

mmurray's Avatar Comment 21 by mmurray

Comment 20 by MarkOnTheRiver :

Going back to your comment about teachers do you have examples of teachers who are too worried about being accused of being racist or similar to report a suspicion?

No I don’t, proving a negative is a tad hard :o)

OK I thought you might know some teachers. There are indicators but I'm not sure what happens if you try and report on them or how common they are. There are examples of what teachers might notice here.

Michael

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:42:29 UTC | #609624

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 22 by SomersetJohn

I know I tend to be just a tad extreme where some crimes are concerned, but I wonder how anxious the parents of a girl would be to mutilate their child if the well advertised penalty for it was physical castration for the father and radical hysterectomy for the mother!

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:59:50 UTC | #609630

phil rimmer's Avatar Comment 23 by phil rimmer

Anvil.

A national TV advert funded and coordinated by central government saying that Female Genital Mutilation is a crime would do much more than inform the perpetrators of these crimes. It gives the victims a voice, too.

Excellent.

I would also propose putting the subject into sex ed at school in the section dealing with abuse.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:02:35 UTC | #609632

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 24 by SaganTheCat

Richard

It is of course true that not all Muslims mutilate their daughters, or approve it

true. in the same way not all catholic priests abuse children but they sure as hell will close ranks when it comes to answering to criticism

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:02:38 UTC | #609633

aball's Avatar Comment 25 by aball

Comment 23 by phil rimmer :

Anvil.

A national TV advert funded and coordinated by central government saying that Female Genital Mutilation is a crime would do much more than inform the perpetrators of these crimes. It gives the victims a voice, too.

Excellent.

I would also propose putting the subject into sex ed at school in the section dealing with abuse.

I am not sure the kind of schools these girls attend will have sex ed classes.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:22:47 UTC | #609639

ANTIcarrot's Avatar Comment 26 by ANTIcarrot

Comment 20 by MarkOnTheRiver : Of course not. No votes in protecting mutilated children, and plenty to be lost by pissing off the mutilators.

Unless you're suggesting we subcontract to the Roman Catholic Church (who apparently have a lot of experience in doing this kind of thing without upsetting people) then yes there are plenty of votes to be lost in state sponsered kiddy fiddling. Even for medical reasons.

Another minor issue is whether you need to train the small army of licensed inspectors this would take. Do you know how small an eight your old girl's clit and libra minor are? (If so, how exactly do you know?!) I do know that in adults size and shape of this anatomy varies enormously. How do you tell the difference between a girl with cut anatomy and a girl with naturally small anatomy?

And how do you plan to compensate the families involved in the inevitable false-positive for the embarressment, humiliation, and abuse they will suffer? How will you compensate the child for the bullying they will recieve from the child protection services who (in their rightous indignation) are determined to wring an accusation/confession out of the child, determined that it's for their own good, no matter how the child tries to 'hide the truth'?

Government mandated health inspections with full body MRI imaging would pick this up non intrusively, and woudl be a great idea in and of itself, but that isn't available for any age. And certainly no one has any intention of picking up the tab for what that woudl cost.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:25:50 UTC | #609642

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 27 by Stafford Gordon

Many hospitals in the UK won't disclose the sex of a child while it's in gestation because of female infanticide among certain communities.

Quite what good that does to protect the infants after they're born, escapes me.

I was under the impression that murder is illegal.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:46:00 UTC | #609650

DCTenner's Avatar Comment 28 by DCTenner

Somehow it seems very acceptable that boys get mutilated. Don't ever bring up that subject with anybody, including lawmakers. There is no public discussion about this, no outrage. But what is exactly the difference? Is it the level of damage and pain and fear to be inflicted? Would it be OK if girls just were to receive a cut? Or should we just protect the physical integrity of all children? No knifes ever, unless it is a medical necessity.

I've seen a horrible documentary about circumcision, terrified children in tears. Not in Sudan or Afghanistan but in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. We have special 'clinics' over here for this. Foreskins are recycled for medical purposes (treatment of burn victims). It was like watching a documentary of a factory. It did not have anything to do with religion. There was no ritual or whatever. Just a bench with a doctor with knives and scissors, a waiting room with scared boys, and one after the other got cut. Lots of blood, "bye, next". Disgusting.

It's not that hard to imagine how traumatizing this practice is if you've ever been a child. A haircut or a visit to the dentist already scares some children. Personally I found the regular check ups where I had to undress myself in front of a doctor horrible, I would have been terrified by the idea that a doctor was going to slice the top of my penis off.

Mutilation is unacceptable. No excuses. Yes, mutilation of girls should be stopped, but let's not forget about boys. Once I almost got into an online fight with a moderate Muslim who was very excited about the then soon to be circumcision of his five year old son. Sure the boy was scared he said, but that's part of it. He joked about it 'he is going to give something of himself away'. Afterwards there would be a party and gifts and everybody would tell the boy he had been very brave. I asked him if he was willing to do something else with a knife and his kids if his prophet demanded that. I asked him if he wouldn't think for just a moment that somebody demanding anything involving knifes, children and blood were a psychopath, a creep, somebody to be locked away forever, far away from children. He got very angry. It was not of our business, we didn't understand it, I was being very rude.

A Dutch physician found a correlation between certain psychological disorders and circumcision. The event is traumatizing for quite some children. Some recall thinking it was a punishment for secretly playing with themselves. They remember the fear they felt afterwards.

Not every Muslim or Jewish parent has his son circumcised. I know this because I grew up with some Muslim and Jewish friends. The 'everybody does it' is a misconception, though that card is played. Reluctant parents may have it done because of peer pressure.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:49:31 UTC | #609653

Peter Grant's Avatar Comment 29 by Peter Grant

The police need to organise sting operations. Infiltrate communities where this happens with undercover agents and bust these freaks before they cut the girls. Cash rewards for info leading to arrests might also help.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:51:31 UTC | #609654

mmurray's Avatar Comment 30 by mmurray

Sorry misread comment. Reply deleted.

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:55:29 UTC | #609655