This site is not maintained. Click here for the new website of Richard Dawkins.

← [UPDATE 16-Apr] 48 Hours to Stop Uganda's Gay Death Penalty - please sign the petition

[UPDATE 16-Apr] 48 Hours to Stop Uganda's Gay Death Penalty - please sign the petition - Comments

Marcus Small's Avatar Comment 1 by Marcus Small

I have already signed, I urge others to do so.

You can also do so here at All Out

Tue, 10 May 2011 14:30:45 UTC | #625340

Jos Gibbons's Avatar Comment 2 by Jos Gibbons

They're already over half the way there. Do sign this. Since you can then share it on social networks, we really can get this to a million. Let's hope Uganda's politicians care.

Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:44 UTC | #625347

RDfan's Avatar Comment 3 by RDfan

Signed.

Needless to say, but I will say it anyway, not all Ugandans, including myself, condone this appalling proposal.

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:08:07 UTC | #625361

Hellboy2's Avatar Comment 4 by Hellboy2

Signed.

Give Reason a loud and clear voice in which to condemn this barbarism...

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:21:44 UTC | #625369

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 5 by Stafford Gordon

I've signed.

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:26:11 UTC | #625370

MadEd's Avatar Comment 6 by MadEd

Signed, and fingers crossed.

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:33:48 UTC | #625373

ANTIcarrot's Avatar Comment 7 by ANTIcarrot

While I condemn this proposed law in the harshest possible term, I can't help but notice this: http://www.allout.org/en/petition/uganda "Ugandan gay ban is colonial hang over." Um, no. It really isn't us white folk this time. This is entirely a case of home grown stupidity.

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:38:44 UTC | #625377

NickD's Avatar Comment 8 by NickD

I've signed.

Tue, 10 May 2011 15:40:13 UTC | #625379

danconquer's Avatar Comment 9 by danconquer

Comment 7 by ANTIcarrot :

I can't help but notice this:... "Ugandan gay ban is colonial hang over." Um, no. It really isn't us white folk this time. This is entirely a case of home grown stupidity.

It largely depends upon the point at which you decide to start the stopwatch of history. If your stopwatch of Ugandan history conveniently starts at 1962, when they acheived independence from Britain, then yes it is "entirely home grown" stupidity.

If, however, you recognise that any fair assesment of how a state arrived at its current situation usually requires going back somewhat further than the time of The Beatles, then you have to acknowledge the ability of ideas and memes to replicate and mutate, reverberating decades and even centuries into the future. The fact that people in particular countries hold the political and religious ideas they do, can often be traced back to events thousands of years ago.

Both Christianity and a particularly vicious strain of anti-sodomy mania are colonial imports (the latter being introduced by those oh-so-civilising Brits everywhere they went) to Uganda, both of which continue to inspire and influence the whole tone of discourse on this matter. So I don't think you can write it off as entirely home-grown stupidity, although of course the Ugandans pushing this barbarism have now very much adopted these ideas as their own.

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:01:54 UTC | #625391

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 10 by SaganTheCat

signed

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:08:22 UTC | #625393

Mr_Paolo's Avatar Comment 11 by Mr_Paolo

signed and posted it on Facebook.

I think the 1million hits is definitely achievable. I wonder how many people are registered to this site and how many check it regularly.

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:10:58 UTC | #625395

cixelsyd5's Avatar Comment 12 by cixelsyd5

Signed.

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:21:56 UTC | #625402

josephor's Avatar Comment 13 by josephor

Signed.

Hopefully this will help to stop the savagery before it begins. American Evangelical scum went to great trouble to stir up this up.

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:46:14 UTC | #625415

TalkingSnake's Avatar Comment 14 by TalkingSnake

Comment 7 by ANTIcarrot :

While I condemn this proposed law in the harshest possible term, I can't help but notice this: http://www.allout.org/en/petition/uganda "Ugandan gay ban is colonial hang over." Um, no. It really isn't us white folk this time. This is entirely a case of home grown stupidity.

While the native populace has taken it to the extreme, our friends at Saddleback Church and some of their cronies have been in Uganda fomenting hatred of gays for a number of years. In their defense, I'm not sure they ever expected it to go this far and they are distancing themselves from the situation they have helped create. But the seed was planted and watered by them. Not very jeebus-y is it?

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:54:53 UTC | #625417

Paul42's Avatar Comment 15 by Paul42

Signed and passed on..............................

Aren't our old friends the American evangelicals implicated in stirring this up?

Yet more proof "religion poisons everything"

Love.

Tue, 10 May 2011 16:57:09 UTC | #625418

skiles1's Avatar Comment 16 by skiles1

Signed. Thanks!

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:08:35 UTC | #625422

thyme's Avatar Comment 17 by thyme

Glad to see this petition being supported on this forum, thanks. Because this forum typically seizes on an opportunity to make a case for how the Muslims are so much worse then the Christians, I think it is important to point out Uganda is predominantly a Christian country.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:12:42 UTC | #625425

Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 18 by Nunbeliever

Signed, sealed, delivered. What a fucked up world we live in. This is what happens when you let religion and superstition rule. Africa is such a sad continent. No hope for a even remotely decent future. Africa has the largest population growth in the world while being the poorest region in the world. Not a good combination. The rest of the world (with some isolated exceptions) are at least going in the right direction. Extreme poverty is slowly diminishing. People generally get better lives. But, that is not the case in Africa. Honestly, there is no hope for this continent. Too much illiteracy, too much superstition, too much religion, too much corruption, too much general stupidness. And as if all this wasn't enough! Yes, Africa is still being raped by outsiders..... raped by christian evangelists, by catholics, by muslims, by multinational companies, by China, by USA, by EU...

Future generations will ask themselves how we allowed this to happen. How could we allow a whole continent to suffer in unimaginable agony while the rest of the world made progress?

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:18:18 UTC | #625429

Vogon42's Avatar Comment 19 by Vogon42

I've got a visceral dislike of "gays" but I signed anyway. How could anybody approve of this law?

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:23:24 UTC | #625432

skiles1's Avatar Comment 20 by skiles1

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:27:30 UTC | #625434

skiles1's Avatar Comment 21 by skiles1

Comment 17 by thyme :

Glad to see this petition being supported on this forum, thanks. Because this forum typically seizes on an opportunity to make a case for how the Muslims are so much worse then the Christians, I think it is important to point out Uganda is predominantly a Christian country.

Uganda is an 84% Christian, democratic republic, where reverends are members of parliament.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:33:07 UTC | #625438

CarlaTrumper's Avatar Comment 22 by CarlaTrumper

Signed & passed on through social networks.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:36:36 UTC | #625439

Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 23 by Nunbeliever

To danconquer:

The fact that people in particular countries hold the political and religious ideas they do, can often be traced back to events thousands of years ago.

Yes, that's a no-brainer. But what's your point? Should we all blame the jews for the evils of christianity and islam as well? I mean they are in the end responsible for these faiths arising in first place. History is important and it is interesting and educational to see how ideas are imported/exported and evolve into integral parts of pre-existing cultural constructs. But, what I am so fed up with is the typical white guilt bs that you seem to be promoting. The view that the west is in the end to blame for the misery we are witnessing in Africa today. That is such a counter-productive standpoint. You can always find scapegoats if you are in the mood for that. I can for example always blame my parents for my own failures in life. I mean, I carry their genes do I not. Still, what good will that do me? If my parents did actually hurt me as a child I might have to reconcile and identify this as true. But in order to move forward I have to get over it and turn the page. In exactly the same way it is vastly counter-productive for both africans and europeans to constantly bring forth the atrocities of our western forefathers. What I hate the most are the people who every time we condemn something that happens in Africa say with a self-righteous smile: "But, you were the ones who gave rise to all this." No I am sorry, it is not my fucking fault that people in Africa are homophobes. And I am fucking going to condemn them as much as I fucking like to.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:37:27 UTC | #625440

Capt. Bloodeye's Avatar Comment 24 by Capt. Bloodeye

Just forwarded this to facebook. Thanks for posting this.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:40:26 UTC | #625442

jez999's Avatar Comment 25 by jez999

Comment 9 by danconquer :

Comment 7 by ANTIcarrot :

I can't help but notice this:... "Ugandan gay ban is colonial hang over." Um, no. It really isn't us white folk this time. This is entirely a case of home grown stupidity.

It largely depends upon the point at which you decide to start the stopwatch of history. If your stopwatch of Ugandan history conveniently starts at 1962, when they acheived independence from Britain, then yes it is "entirely home grown" stupidity.

If, however, you recognise that any fair assesment of how a state arrived at its current situation usually requires going back somewhat further than the time of The Beatles, then you have to acknowledge the ability of ideas and memes to replicate and mutate, reverberating decades and even centuries into the future. The fact that people in particular countries hold the political and religious ideas they do, can often be traced back to events thousands of years ago.

Both Christianity and a particularly vicious strain of anti-sodomy mania are colonial imports (the latter being introduced by those oh-so-civilising Brits everywhere they went) to Uganda, both of which continue to inspire and influence the whole tone of discourse on this matter. So I don't think you can write it off as entirely home-grown stupidity, although of course the Ugandans pushing this barbarism have now very much adopted these ideas as their own.

Nice argument, shame that your stopwatch conveniently starts 2000 years ago. Before the Romans invaded and imposed Christianity on Britain, it wasn't anti-gay. That sentiment was imposed on us Brits by Roman colonialism, Leviticus, and St. Paul. :-)

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:46:24 UTC | #625446

Stevehill's Avatar Comment 26 by Stevehill

The villain of the piece here is the bloody Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. This horrific piece of legislation has been sponsored by Anglican bishops in Uganda.

Rather than kick the fuckwits out of the Anglican church forever, Williams is stuck with sitting on the fence, wringing his hands and trying to hold the church together for fear of upsetting (even more) the misogynist, homophobic "Reform wing" tendency within the CofE.

This is cowardice on a scale which ranks alongside appeasing the Nazis in the 1930s (sorry, Godwin, but it's true).

The CofE has no need for the retards in the African church: let them go their own separate way, but at least - please - take the moral high ground and stop effectively supporting this horrific legislation for want of failure to oppose it.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:47:49 UTC | #625447

danconquer's Avatar Comment 27 by danconquer

Re comments 23 and 25,

While agreeing with pretty much everything you both point out, the placard in question described what was happening as a hangover of colonialism. That's the important point.

It didn't say it was colonialism in action. Or the responsibility of "white men". Just that it's a hangover from the anti-sodomy mania that was a fact of the colonial era. I took it to imply that this law therefore belongs in the dustbin of Ugandan history, not in its future.

It wouldn't be my placard of choice, but the 'hangover' point is not as unreasonable as some are suggesting it to be. When it comes to the misery caused in countries that were converted within the last few centuries to Islam people are not normally so shy about acknowledging that decisions taken today are often a 'hangover' of that Islamic colonisation.

Tue, 10 May 2011 17:59:43 UTC | #625455

Vogon42's Avatar Comment 28 by Vogon42

It does seem that a standard African answer to everything - and excuse for not doing much to improve things - is to blame Colonialism even though it ended two generations ago.

Tue, 10 May 2011 18:12:25 UTC | #625462

skiles1's Avatar Comment 29 by skiles1

Given the fact that Uganda is a mostly Christian, democratic republic, which has reverends as acting members of parliament, with bishops and American evangelicals supporting the anti-gay bill, we can confidently say Christianity is responsible. After all, the Bible, New Testament, Book of Romans, Chapter 1, says gender variant people are "worthy of death".

Tue, 10 May 2011 18:27:15 UTC | #625470

Vogon42's Avatar Comment 30 by Vogon42

Comment 25 by jez999 : Nice argument, shame that your stopwatch conveniently starts 2000 years ago. Before the Romans invaded and imposed Christianity on Britain, it wasn't anti-gay. That sentiment was imposed on us Brits by Roman colonialism, Leviticus, and St. Paul. :-)

Are there any studies of social attitudes in pre-Roman Britain to underpin that assertion?

Roman views on homosexuality in the 1st century AD were probably fairly liberal, even about pederasty, given the influence of Greek thought on Roman society. Just as a wild hypothesis, could it be that the Christian "moral" outrage on homosexuality reflected a way that the church could attack pagan practices, thus giving it a weapon against its enemies?

Tue, 10 May 2011 18:34:14 UTC | #625474