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← Rupture With Vatican Reveals a Changed Ireland

Rupture With Vatican Reveals a Changed Ireland - Comments

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 1 by rod-the-farmer

I suspect the last shoe has not dropped here....

Mon, 19 Sep 2011 21:58:52 UTC | #872829

kscally's Avatar Comment 2 by kscally

87 per cent of the Irish population identified itself as Catholic five years ago in the 2006 census. This year's census followed the Catholic Church's heartwarming display of concern for children and was accompanied by a campaign attempting to persuade people to avoid the rote response (based on their enforced baptism) and to complete the religion section of the form more reflectively and honestly. It will be interesting to see how far the 87 per cent figure has moved; I predict a figure closer to 70 per cent. Meanwhile I wouldn't bother quoting a statistic so far past its sell-by date.

Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:00:12 UTC | #872830

Quine's Avatar Comment 3 by Quine

Again, if religion were true, it would not be geographic.

Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:05:59 UTC | #872832

nancynancy's Avatar Comment 4 by nancynancy

Definitely a positive development.

Mon, 19 Sep 2011 23:42:44 UTC | #872868

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 5 by drumdaddy

The truth shall set you free! Sláinte, brother Kenny!

Mon, 19 Sep 2011 23:49:28 UTC | #872872

achromat666's Avatar Comment 6 by achromat666

This is highly encouraging. I hope the frustration becomes infectious.

But the awe, respect and fear the Vatican once commanded have given way to something new — rage, disgust and defiance — after a long series of horrific revelations about decades of abuse of children entrusted to the church’s care by a reverential populace.

Hey could you guys pass more of this to the States? I'd so appreciate it.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 00:05:49 UTC | #872878

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 7 by Tyler Durden

his is still a country where abortion is against the law, where divorce became legal only in 1995, where the church runs more than 90 percent of the primary schools and where 87 percent of the population identifies itself as Catholic.

And the sale of condoms 'over the counter' was illegal even in 1991.

This 90% figure will change for the better due to a newly formed EducateTogether partnership taking on a more secular/multi-denom attitude to education. Also, the RCC are being stripped of land to pay for abuse cases in a 50/50 deal with the Government to pay costs to victims of sexual and other abuses in Industrial schools run by clergy.

The figures from the recent census will be interesting to analyse. Church attendance here is down, and has been dropping fast (< 48%) in the last decade.

What will be interesting to see as a final litmus test toward the 'power' of the RCC in modern, multi-cultural Ireland is whether pubs (and supermarkets) can open on Good Friday for the sale of alcohol. How the church can still dictate when publicans can open for business is beyond me.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 00:26:00 UTC | #872886

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 8 by Cartomancer

My old grandmother got out of Ireland in the 1930s because of all the catholic nastiness. Two generations later and things seem to be improving markedly. Perhaps the next generation of my family will finally be able to go back.

Oh. Yeah. That's right. Thanks to all the condoms and homosexuality there isn't going to be a next generation. Carry on, as you were...

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 00:38:18 UTC | #872888

Roedy's Avatar Comment 9 by Roedy

Quebec in Canada was effectively run by the Catholic church. Then something happened. The shook it off and now Quebec is the most progressive and least religious part of Canada.

The power led to abuses, particularly sexual abuse of children by priests. The church got away with "murder" for generations. Then the people just had enough of them.

You might say the church had too much rope and hanged themselves. Perhaps the same thing is happening in Ireland.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:22:38 UTC | #872897

quarecuss's Avatar Comment 10 by quarecuss

This is far better than Ireland beating Australia at the rugby World Cup.
Kicking some Vatican arse!
Reminds me just a little of the Fr. Ted episode where he kicked Bishop Brennan up the arse.
Kenny's speech is still reverberating nearly 2 months on.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:23:18 UTC | #872899

Scoundrel's Avatar Comment 11 by Scoundrel

Comment 5 by drumdaddy :

The truth shall set you free!

Nice Bible quote there. Bit of a nuisance that people disagree on what is true though.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:58:35 UTC | #872913

Reckless Monkey's Avatar Comment 12 by Reckless Monkey

So much of parliament (at least in Australia) is shallow point scoring, sounds like this would have been a great day to be in the Irish parliament.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 05:25:53 UTC | #872947

carlos sutter's Avatar Comment 13 by carlos sutter

Hooray for Ireland, it was about time too! So many less children will be molested...in Ireland, by Catholic priests, at least. The rape continues in many other countries however, where its citizens continue to allow it, blinded by their ridiculous sheep's mentality towards men in robes with crucifixes, when they should be protesting the obvious abuse. The Vatican's arrogant hypocritical position in the presence of clear evidence is repulsive, as usual. But then again, evidence has never meant anything to a body that excels at making gullible people ignore it and trampling human rights with their own laws, written 3000 years ago by sexists, racists, homophobic, and war mongering goat herders.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:26:13 UTC | #872954

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 14 by Vorlund

Ireland has just turned over in bed, it'll be a while yet before it clears the sleep from its eyes wakes up and smells the coffee.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:52:40 UTC | #872957

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 15 by Alan4discussion

There is a situation in Northern Ireland which is of concern! Sinn Féin, , in charge of the Education Department, have abolished the 11 plus exam and want to move towards a more comprehensive style of education.

Given that prominent Sinn Féin, candidates with prior IRA connections, are now standing in (Southern) Irish Republic elections, a possible backlash should be a serious concern!

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:14:59 UTC | #872997

thebaldgit's Avatar Comment 16 by thebaldgit

An important first step towards a better, more tolerant Ireland but there is still a long way to go yet.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:24:39 UTC | #873003

peter mayhew's Avatar Comment 17 by peter mayhew

It took systematic child rape for a country to wake up from its own religious fog. Good for Ireland: may you lead the way for many others.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:39:23 UTC | #873006

Mr DArcy's Avatar Comment 18 by Mr DArcy

This could be the beginning of the Enda Times!

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:51:37 UTC | #873026

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 19 by Ignorant Amos

Faugh a ballagh!

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:15:56 UTC | #873033

Tintern's Avatar Comment 20 by Tintern

Enda Kenny "was giving voice not just to his own pent-up feelings, but to those of a nation." Utter horseshit. Kenny's government has just handed over €35 million to the Catholic Church to pay its wealthy solicitors' legal fees for the sex abuse enquiry and it's apparently not the first payment we've made. €35 MILLION to the richest paedophlie ring on Planet Earth! How the hell does that tally with his so called outrage? But here's the kicker. Some of us here are currently engaged in fighting Kenny's government over the firing of Special Needs Assistants for handicapped children. They are being fired to make a false saving of €6 million immediately, which will only be €2 million when these dedicated people add to the nation's welfare payments. Also, in the long run, it will cost far more for institutionalised care for these kids in their adulthood.

“It was a seminal moment,” said Patsy McGarry, the religious affairs correspondent for The Irish Times... The obsequiousness of the Irish state toward the Vatican is gone. The deference is gone”

Unmitigated bullshit yet again. Kenny's populist bullshit speech is one of the most viciously hypocritical speeches even that prick has ever made, in light of his all-out attack on handicapped children in Ireland today. Check out a youtube vid entitled "Run Rabbitte Run!" for one example of the children Kenny and his scumbag government are attacking with the same gusto as the gombeens they replaced.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:19:05 UTC | #873037

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 21 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 15 by Alan4discussion

Martin McGuiness ex PIRA commander of Londonderry and Deputy First Minister for Northern Ireland, has just stood down to run for the Irish Presidency and is second favourite at the bookies to win.....should make for an entertaining royal visit of the future if he wins.

BTW, they, Sinn Fein, abolished the 11 plus selection system without any alternative selection mechanism in its place, so what we have at the minute is an 11 plus selection system that is just the same in everything but name.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:27:48 UTC | #873040

black wolf's Avatar Comment 22 by black wolf

Hey, Ireland. There is no God, and Jesus wasn't magic. Glad to help. Now get over it.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:34:19 UTC | #873041

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 23 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 20 by Tintern

That's shocking news.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:35:55 UTC | #873043

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 22 by black wolf

Hey, Ireland. There is no God, and Jesus wasn't magic. Glad to help. Now get over it.

Hey, Germany, people in glass houses shouldn't chuck stones. We are working on it, can you say the same?

Pope's Berlin mass moved to Nazi Olympic site

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:46:26 UTC | #873049

Linda Ward's Avatar Comment 25 by Linda Ward

Too many in Ireland continue to believe that priests have magical powers, hence the general fear of doing the right thing, that is abolishing faith schools and confiscating all property belonging to the Roman Catholic cult.

Once children are no longer taught to be fearful of priests and grow up free from religious indoctrination then the society can evolve for the better.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:57:37 UTC | #873076

Al Denelsbeck's Avatar Comment 26 by Al Denelsbeck

The question that keeps going through my head is, how did the vatican get the ability to cover this up in the first place? Does no one report abuses to local law enforcement or social workers? Or do those bodies simply hand things over to the church to let them sort it out for themselves? Why is it that reports of child abuse are being fed into this black hole within catholicism and no one has been questioning it?

I mean, I understand that some governments are actually okay with considering vatican City a "sovereign state," (okay, I don't understand it, but I realize that people are indeed stupid,) but that's obviously not what's happening here - it looks from my perspective like each individual church building in Ireland is being given that status. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:52:48 UTC | #873096

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 27 by Alan4discussion

Comment 21 by Ignorant Amos

BTW, they, Sinn Fein, abolished the 11 plus selection system without any alternative selection mechanism in its place, so what we have at the minute is an 11 plus selection system that is just the same in everything but name.

The same thing happened in England in the late 1960s/1970s when the 11 plus exam was abolished in a rush without planned alternatives in place. My point was to emphasize that Sinn Fein, was directing EDUCATION in Northern Ireland! (There's a background for supervising children's education - terrorism + Catholicism!)

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:10:22 UTC | #873101

Al Denelsbeck's Avatar Comment 28 by Al Denelsbeck

Tintern said:

Kenny's populist bullshit speech is one of the most viciously hypocritical speeches even that prick has ever made, in light of his all-out attack on handicapped children in Ireland today.

Not arguing with anything here in the slightest, but I wanted to point out something in general, from the perspective of someone who wouldn't be voting either way.

Politics causes a lot of polarization, and we're very used to seeing things that way and treating this as normal. But Kenny's stance in other areas doesn't change what his impact has been, and still apparently continues to be, regarding the catholic church. Those events, at the very least those speeches, are what is starting to make changes, and setting some new and encouraging precedents. It's hard to say yet just how far those ripples will spread, but the fact that someone even stirred them up is a great sign.

Here in the States, at least, we're not attaching them to a face or a party, but to Ireland. Whether Kenny intends to follow through or not, the vatican has been obligated to respond, and hasn't made a very good showing for itself. Ratzinger's PR program is rather pathetic, and every time they speak they make a mess of it.

Voters, naturally, have to balance all aspects of any politician's policies to make their decisions, but at the same time, each aspect stands on its own, good or bad, progress or setback. I'm more than happy to encourage progress in both child abuse policies and Special Needs Assistance, and to discourage handing over even coins found in the gutter to any body not contributing taxes towards the State. None of it changes the others, though - it just affects how Kenny is seen personally and politically. We have to be careful not to attach more importance to that than it deserves.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:24:50 UTC | #873104

Rosbif's Avatar Comment 29 by Rosbif

The Belgian government (and UK) could learn a little from this kick back against a religious implementation of a parallel law.

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:14:55 UTC | #873117

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 30 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 27 by Alan4discussion

My point was to emphasize that Sinn Fein, was directing EDUCATION in Northern Ireland! (There's a background for supervising children's education - terrorism + Catholicism!)

Ha Ha...a point of notable worth it is too, Caitriona Ruane made a balls of being Education Minister, a portfolio Sinn Fein were keen to hold onto for some reason, and indeed they have.

"Former Sinn Fein education minister Caitriona Ruane scrapped the 11-plus during the last mandate but the matter has been controversial, with many schools, including most Catholic grammar schools, setting independent tests, thus causing great uncertainty among parents and children."

Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:50:27 UTC | #873130