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← Refusing to Kill Daughter, Pakistani Family Defies Tradition, Draws Anger

Refusing to Kill Daughter, Pakistani Family Defies Tradition, Draws Anger - Comments

achromat666's Avatar Comment 31 by achromat666

There seems to seems to be a theme to recent threads where the middle east is concerned of late: people in these countries taking a stand against the most sadistic aspects of a highly secluded culture. And this young woman and her family seems bravest of all so far, and that's saying quite a bit considering the other recent articles.

Stoning, genital mutilation, honor rape... is there no end to how low a culture must think of their women to make such acts justified in any way? Theocracy is not just the poison, it's the undertaker burying countless victims that we don't have names for in the name of a belief system that has the delusional audacity to call itself perfect. I am truly hard pressed to find anything more vile than to perpetuate this sort of horror over the many generations it has thrived there.

It's long past time for the culture to join the 21st century. Hell, it would be nice to make it to the past 200 years or so.

Any place where such an act can happen and the authorities aren't prosecuting the offenders is beyond atrocious.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:24:23 UTC | #876094

SheerReason's Avatar Comment 32 by SheerReason

What? How dare these parents lovingly spare their daughter from punishment dished out by bearded superstitious troglodytes! Can you believe these people? I mean really.... Still, we must keep on pretending that this isn't a common enough practice in the Muslim world because we don't want to be viewed as Islamophobic....

What the hell? These people are obviously suffering from some sort of mental illness... I've heard it expressed that the religious are all suffering from a sort of "organized schizophrenia". I'm starting to believe that.

No matter how many times I've heard this same sort of story come out of the muslim world, it still never fails to put me flat on my ass in shock.

I'm telling you, most of the inhabitants of this planet are completely batshit....

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:32:07 UTC | #876097

nancynancy's Avatar Comment 33 by nancynancy

          [Comment 27]  by  [phil rimmer]           :

It would be nice if some some appropriate external charity could direct financial support drawn from those of us concerned to this girl and her admirable family. Any thoughts?

I agree. Would it be at all possible for Prof. Dawkins to set up a link for the first page so that we could make a monetary contribution towards this brave young woman and her family, as well as others who find themselves in a similar situations. I'm sure that even a modest amount of money would help this family buy their groceries as they take a public stand against the excesses of their culture and religion.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:38:44 UTC | #876098

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 34 by Cartomancer

I suspect this is another one that only the moderate muslims and enlightened urban Pakistanis could really deal with from outside. Yes, it would be great if the whole of Pakistan could stop being so backwardly tribal and irrational, but that's not something that is going to happen overnight and not something they can really be forced into against their will. I suspect heavy-handed intervention would be counter-productive. But there are lots of Pakistani people here in Britain, and there are lots of muslims who are horrified by this kind of behaviour - perhaps their voices would hold more weight than those of secularists with no ties to Pakistani society?

I suspect their hardline islamic beliefs make the situation worse, providing sanction and justification for the tribal backwardness and sexual repression, but we must not lose sight of the fact that this simply magnifies archaic tribal cultures that were murderously misogynistic long before islam came along. Pretty much all islam is misogynistic, but it takes an extra load of baggage to make it this misogynistic. Breaking into such closed tribal cultures is very, very difficult, but it seems to me that the people most likely to succeed are those whose descent from these same tribes gives them a way in. Perhaps wealthy and successful people who could provide an example of how much of a material advantage a more liberal, less murderous culture can provide? Perhaps if we provide enough real education for the younger generation, enough role models to encourage them to follow a different life and culture from the one that the murderous mullahs preach, we might reach a tipping point and create some kind of self-sustaining cultural enlightenment. It is possible that such a thing is beginning even now, with the spread of the internet and so forth.

Though, of course, there is a lot that the rest of us can do by way of funding the charities involved on the ground which sort out the problems as they arise. And by supporting the politicians and cultural figures who are trying to speak out against this sort of thing in Pakistan itself.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:40:15 UTC | #876099

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 35 by Richard Dawkins

Comment 14 by some asshole :

Well, is Christi(ns)anity any better? The bible says that adulterers and homosexuals should be murdered, children who act up should be murdered (by stoning I believe; I don't feel like making myself dirty by looking it up right now). Christians don't currently carry out those acts most of the time, but it's in the sacred texts.

Yes, Christians are much much better. Their sacred texts may be just as bad, but they don't act on them. In Pakistan, Muslims act on them and the law either supports them or turns a blind eye.

Richard

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:48:57 UTC | #876101

Peter Grant's Avatar Comment 36 by Peter Grant

Comment 35 by Richard Dawkins

Yes, Christians are much much better.

True, but only through centuries of enlightening influence by us atheists :D

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:10:59 UTC | #876105

green and dying's Avatar Comment 37 by green and dying

Comment 36 by Peter Grant :

True, but only through centuries of enlightening influence by us atheists :D

And Jesus.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:24:03 UTC | #876110

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 38 by Atheist Mike

If I'd have to choose between Jesus and Mo I'd go for Jesus. A hippie carpenter is much more peace-inspiring than an arabic warlord.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:28:38 UTC | #876113

Peter Grant's Avatar Comment 39 by Peter Grant

Comment 37 by green and dying

Comment 36 by Peter Grant :

True, but only through centuries of enlightening influence by us atheists :D

And Jesus.

If he existed, some of the better stuff attributed to him sounds pretty atheistic :P

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:34:55 UTC | #876114

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 40 by alaskansee

@ Richard Dawkins

You're half right half wrong - Christianity IS as bad as this, current Christians aren't because the rest of us dragged them kicking and screaming into the enlightenment.

You don't need to listen that hard to still hear their plaintiff cries and they're widely featured on your web site too.

@ Peter Grant

Yup Jesus stole lots of stuff from earlier religions and philosophies, pity he didn't just start from scratch instead of including all that crap from the OT.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:04:53 UTC | #876122

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 41 by Tyler Durden

Comment 38 by Atheist Mike :

If I'd have to choose between Jesus and Mo I'd go for Jesus. A hippie carpenter is much more peace-inspiring than an arabic warlord.

An arabic paedophile warlord.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:13:07 UTC | #876128

Sjoerd Westenborg's Avatar Comment 42 by Sjoerd Westenborg

I've taken a particularly nasty interest in that judge. There's nothing about his motivations/rulings that even comes close to a fair process of law. (Not exacly sure what the english legal terms are, Dutch law has a.. distinctive terminology). People in that position are supposed to be at least a little bit more reasonable/fair than those they rule over. Tribal monkeys... at least we are 21th century monkeys.

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:13:25 UTC | #876129

phil rimmer's Avatar Comment 43 by phil rimmer

Comment 34 by Cartomancer

perhaps their voices would hold more weight than those of secularists with no ties to Pakistani society?

I like this very much, but currently this bit of motivation is with us. How might we pump prime then?

Pakistani womens groups, lawyers?

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:20:22 UTC | #876133

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 44 by Tyler Durden

In Pakistan, women and men who have illicit relationships or women who lose their virginity before marriage are at risk of paying with their lives.

Forget about CERN, Pakistan has invented time travel, and returned to the Stone Age!!

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:24:06 UTC | #876134

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 45 by QuestioningKat

Comment 28 by Peter Grant :

So in addition to gang raping a 13 year old girl these men murdered her brother as well, and the police are working with them because her family refuses to kill her:

Ahsan Thebo

Sha’aban Sheikh

Roshan Thebo

Kaleemullah Thebo

Interesting, in the US the Thebo family's name would be dragged through the mud. The parents would hide in shame or speak publically to denounce these men's actions. The family would need to hire lawyers to ensure that the police are crossing the line in any way. What a contrast .

Wed, 28 Sep 2011 23:47:14 UTC | #876139

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 46 by Border Collie

Sometimes, one courageous family can change things ...

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:13:20 UTC | #876147

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 47 by Schrodinger's Cat

Comment 44 by Tyler Durden

Forget about CERN, Pakistan has invented time travel, and returned to the Stone Age!!

I have my doubts that our most distant ancestors were actually as brutal and thuggish as history likes to portray. It really wasn't until the advent of 'God says.....' that people gave themselves license to commit almost any atrrocity in the name of some supposedly benevolent overlord.

As for 'honour' killings......these murderous maniacs have no honour worth mentioning. The lowliest pond scum is a more honourable creature.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:33:03 UTC | #876151

Bipedal Primate's Avatar Comment 48 by Bipedal Primate

I'm glad to see that what appeared to be a ban on Islam-bashing finally has been lifted from RDnet. Let's rage as long as we're allowed to before some other lunatic immersed in templar knight fantasies kills more children and in effect shuts down the internet and freedom of speech completely.

Will someone please kidnap all Muslim children and send them to Mr. and Mrs. Dawkins, where they can all get a proper education about how we know what's really true?

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:36:10 UTC | #876152

SheerReason's Avatar Comment 49 by SheerReason

Just thought I should point out the following quote from the article linked above in the "Read More" link from the comments section.

Seferis Zooka 6 hours ago in reply to otto42

Pakistani here. You can help her by bringing attention to it. Most people in my country wouldn't agree with >me when I say that the international press needs to cover such stories. They say that it creates a bad >image of the country. Some of my friends say the same. I have to remind them you can't solve problems >by sticking your head in the sand. And if truth brings us a bad name, then we bloody well deserve it. >Moreso when deliberately covering up such incidents.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:45:07 UTC | #876155

tembuki's Avatar Comment 50 by tembuki

Comment 19 by Peter Grant :

If it was my daughter I would not rest until the rapists were dead. No civilised courtroom verdict would satisfy my thirst for vengeance, I would want to kill them with my own bare hands.

Would you also collect evidence to determine without a doubt that they were the ones that committed that crime before you killed them or would their having been arrested be good enough for you?

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:47:07 UTC | #876156

kraut's Avatar Comment 51 by kraut

All those "leaders" demanding the girl to be killed are nothing but spineless jerks who should have their balls cutoff with a dull handsaw - and I declare my willingness to do so. I have castrated pigs before, so no problem to me to take care of swine like these.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:58:54 UTC | #876161

kraut's Avatar Comment 52 by kraut

PS - if anybody should ask why castration: humanity as a whole has to prevent the reproduction of arseholes like those "leaders". They are armed and dangerous...

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:02:31 UTC | #876164

isisdron's Avatar Comment 53 by isisdron

Her family is very brave in their love for their daughter that puts them at odds with their society. At least if the people who are persecuting them come for all their lives, they can die knowing they did right by their beloved child, who they would rather die with than live without. I dont know if there is anything we can do...the people need to change their own societies from within. Any pressure from 'outsiders' will only make them double down in their ignorance and savagery.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:08:38 UTC | #876165

S. Gudmundsson's Avatar Comment 54 by S. Gudmundsson

What a charming tradition. Killing your own daughter for being raped is like burning a shopkeeper for being robbed. Who thought up these laws?

Oh, right. Capricious and ignorant men, much like the ones who govern theocracies like Pakistan today.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:31:24 UTC | #876170

Metamag's Avatar Comment 55 by Metamag

But good to know that UK allowed the immigration from that hell hole of a country for decades and now you have such mentality in abundunce in your own country due to vileness of mutliculturalism.

You reap what you saw.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:55:41 UTC | #876175

zengardener's Avatar Comment 56 by zengardener

How much longer can this go on?

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:59:01 UTC | #876176

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 57 by aquilacane

Comment 35 by Richard Dawkins

Yes, Christians are much much better. Their sacred texts may be just as bad, but they don't act on them.

Remember these Christians?

They may not be as bad but when they get away with this massive a consentration of death threats and out-and-out hate speach, without so much as a twitch of concern from anyone, how far off are they?

They were voting, not long ago, on whether or not they should kill homosexuals. It was actually in question at a governmental level.

Give 'em rope they'll put it around your neck

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 04:29:18 UTC | #876200

Universeman's Avatar Comment 58 by Universeman

Obviously there is no excuse for this kind of state sanctioned violence against an innocent victim, she’s 17 now and this happened 4 years ago, so she was 13 at the time. Barbaric is far too kind a word, if we are God’s ultimate creation then he sure did a shitty job of creating humans. As an atheist I no longer wonder how humans can be so cruel, we are just highly intelligent animals who are clearly just as capable of mindless killing the same as any other predatory animal. The fact of the matter is that there is little to no hope of eradicating this kind of senseless killing of innocents like this girl, much less the horrors which occur on a continual basis among our species. Not that I am saying that we should just give up by any means, I am only saying that this behavior is only comprehensible from an atheistic evolutionary perspective.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 04:50:15 UTC | #876206

InYourFaceNewYorker's Avatar Comment 59 by InYourFaceNewYorker

Stop it! This is somehow our fault for our imperialistic past and we should go easy on them because they're brown! Otherwise, we would be racist!

Julie

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:01:54 UTC | #876216

kraut's Avatar Comment 60 by kraut

Christianity IS as bad as this, current Christians aren't because the rest of us dragged them kicking and screaming into the enlightenment.

No, to kill your children for "dishonouring" you family was never accepted practice in any christian country I know of. The offending daughters usually wound up in a monastery, but not dead - a big difference to my mind. Although the latter day Magdalen Laundries might have been not much better than death.

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:23:01 UTC | #876220