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Atheist Richard Dawkins snubbed by Detroit area country club - Comments

El Bastardo's Avatar Comment 1 by El Bastardo

The caption on the pic is unreal. "Richard Dawkins is an atheist." WOW, who knew.

Besides, if I'm not mistaken the good Professor has boon on O'Reilly before, so even if the owners hid within conservative circles, they still should be familiar with the name and work of Richard Dawkins.

Should be interesting to see how this bigotry pans out.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:58:48 UTC | #880159

green and dying's Avatar Comment 2 by green and dying

I don't think discriminating against someone because of their views is much like discrimination based on race or sexuality. I would happily discriminate against a racist or a misogynistic imam and not feel bad about it. If someone feels the same way about atheists then they're a ridiculous person but I don't judge them in the same way as if they would discriminate against someone because they were gay or black.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:05:57 UTC | #880161

Sample's Avatar Comment 3 by Sample

The comments (so far) seem to be favorable on the Detroit Free Press. I'm not in Michigan but I've always thought it to be a pretty good paper.

I like the caption, it did make me laugh. But, well, in this case the point is the bigotry toward atheists so it makes sense.

I don't envy the Professor should this become protracted, as these things often do. Time is precious and I hope to payoff is worth the effort. Good luck RDF Legal Team!

Mike

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:11:15 UTC | #880162

CarolineMary's Avatar Comment 4 by CarolineMary

I hope that any/all publicity over this makes them look bad and Richard look good.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:20:51 UTC | #880166

Sjoerd Westenborg's Avatar Comment 5 by Sjoerd Westenborg

@ green and dying,

But why would it be different? There has been a rather nice article on this site arguing that atheism is as much no choice than being gay or black. The same would go for relious people, who are as much a product of their environment and brain function(s) as atheists are.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643068-disbelief-is-not-a-choice

But even if being an atheist isn't in some ways the same as being gay, black, a woman or whatever people discriminate against, being discriminated for your views of the world is still a very humiliating experience and shouldn't be allowed. Of course you can disagree or argue, but you can't demean or treat someone inhumanely for it.

No doubt that if a law suit will follow, that country club has some serious problems though.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:21:56 UTC | #880167

Jumped Up Chimpanzee's Avatar Comment 6 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee

Comment 2 by green and dying

I don't think discriminating against someone because of their views is much like discrimination based on race or sexuality. I would happily discriminate against a racist or a misogynistic imam and not feel bad about it. If someone feels the same way about atheists then they're a ridiculous person but I don't judge them in the same way as if they would discriminate against someone because they were gay or black.

I agree that discriminating against someone because of their views is not as bad in principle as discriminating against someone because of their race, gender or sexuality.

However, I don't think it is right in a civilised society to deny anyone services in the public or private sector because of their political or religious views. Provided people abide by the law and are well-behaved they should be entitled to the same services as everyone else. That's why it is right that this cancellation would appear to be illegal.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:37:04 UTC | #880173

champak5501@yahoo.com's Avatar Comment 7 by champak5501@yahoo.com

"My dear Kepler, what would you say of the learned here, who, replete with the pertinacity of the asp, have steadfastly refused to cast a glance through the telescope? What shall we make of this? Shall we laugh, or shall we cry?"

Still not ready to cast a glance through the telescope after 4 centuries.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:43:02 UTC | #880175

green and dying's Avatar Comment 8 by green and dying

Comment 5 by Sjoerd Westenborg :

@ green and dying,

But why would it be different? There has been a rather nice article on this site arguing that atheism is as much no choice than being gay or black. The same would go for relious people, who are as much a product of their environment and brain function(s) as atheists are.

Well, you could say the same thing about some racists. Or anyone hateful, or violent, or anything at all. Maybe we don't have a choice in anything. It's irrelevant to me.

But even if being an atheist isn't in some ways the same as being gay, black, a woman or whatever people discriminate against, being discriminated for your views of the world is still a very humiliating experience and shouldn't be allowed. Of course you can disagree or argue, but you can't demean or treat someone inhumanely for it.

No doubt that if a law suit will follow, that country club has some serious problems though.

Would you feel bad if a racist was humiliated for their views? If you would, would you have anywhere near as much sympathy for them as if they'd been humiliated for being gay or black?

Comment 6 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee :

However, I don't think it is right in a civilised society to deny anyone services in the public or private sector because of their political or religious views. Provided people abide by the law and are well-behaved they should be entitled to the same services as everyone else. That's why it is right that this cancellation would appear to be illegal.

Maybe you're right, but it's the comparison I really disagreed with.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:53:12 UTC | #880178

Nunbeliever's Avatar Comment 9 by Nunbeliever

This only shows my point on the O'Reilly thread wasn't all that far-fetched after all. We may think O'Reilly is a total jackass who can't be taken seriously, but he knows what he is doing and exactly what to say and how to behave in order to please his conservative religious audience. People watch his show and while we think O'Reilly comes out as a bigoted moron they agree with him and admire his position. I am afraid O'Reilly is not all that stupid after all. He knows what he is doing and he knows his audience. He could not care less what liberals or atheists think of him. Of course he knows we think he is a complete ass. But, we are not his audience. We are not the ones responsible for his fat paycheck. I am not even sure he actually believes all the bullshit himself. I pretty much see him as a charlatan who has found his niche as a conservative talk show host.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:58:55 UTC | #880181

btheist's Avatar Comment 10 by btheist

http://www.thewyndgate.com/wyndgate/contact.html

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:04:56 UTC | #880182

Tintern's Avatar Comment 11 by Tintern

Who would have thought a country club could be exclusive and biased...oh wait.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:09:17 UTC | #880185

glenister_m's Avatar Comment 12 by glenister_m

Re: Comment 9 " I am not even sure he actually believes all the bullshit himself"

I often wonder that myself, not just in regards to O'Reilly, but many other similar celebrities. It just seems incredible that an educated* person could hold some of the opinions they express. However if the point is to generate an emotional reaction in the audience (think of the movie "Quiz Show") to generate ratings, then it makes sense.

Of course I don't doubt that someone like Peter Popoff laughs his way to the bank on the gullibility of his followers, but I'm not sure about some talk-show hosts.

*I use the term loosely, in that someone who keeps up with current affairs and issues in the world.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:39:13 UTC | #880199

YHWH's Avatar Comment 13 by YHWH

lolz. Whose loss is this?

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:45:45 UTC | #880204

Ryou Concord's Avatar Comment 14 by Ryou Concord

I wish I could apologize on behalf of my home state, Michigan...but, I mean, Rochester is an upper-middle class area. And I have always heard that most of the folks there are snobbish, so I guess it makes sense that eventually that stereotype would prevail in the form of a presumably affluent, snobbish dipshit who watches The O'Reily Factor.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:01:35 UTC | #880206

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 15 by Premiseless

Welcome to the new lamp for old religion - thought dogma!

We hear your words that make absolute sense and wholeheartedly reject them because we have our own words that match the colour of our wallpaper. The colour of our wallpaper is something we all share. You either like our wallpaper or you go. There is no question or reason about this. This is one of our wallpaper rulings!

Oh, and if you ever choose our wallpaper, we reserve the right to redecorate and usually do, because these are the wallpaper rulings told to us by the genie in the bottle who we only let out whenever someone like you turns up with a redecoration order.

Reason and truth are not in our colour scheme, we only do wallpaper!

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:02:16 UTC | #880208

YHWH's Avatar Comment 16 by YHWH

This reminded me of one of Glen Baxter's wonderful and vaguely sinister cartoons but it's not available online and I can't post a ling so ...

Picture a cow hand, roughly shaking a frightened cow girl in a stable above the legend

"We don't hold with Puccini at the Lazy S".

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:15:38 UTC | #880209

YHWH's Avatar Comment 17 by YHWH

ling = link (of course)

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:17:54 UTC | #880210

Kubrick's Avatar Comment 18 by Kubrick

It really is remarkable how all of Dawkins' credentials (evolutionary biologist, former professor at Oxford University, best-selling author, etc.) get overshadowed by the term "atheist." (Granted, he is briefly called a "scientist from England" as well, although this is a bit like calling Bill Gates "an American businessman.") Can anyone imagine a newspaper article calling Francis Collins "a noted Christian" while ignoring his contribution to the Human Genome Project and his role as director of the NIH?

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:42:17 UTC | #880238

                                   ike's Avatar Comment 19 by ike

It's still Ok to snubb atheists in America :/

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:23:18 UTC | #880246

calliecparrish's Avatar Comment 20 by calliecparrish

Comment 19 by ike :

It's still Ok to snubb atheists in America :/

Sad but true. :'(

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:40:18 UTC | #880252

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 21 by SomersetJohn

Oh dear, some of the comments here have got me thinking.

Are some of us Atheists just as bigoted as the believers. Is it acceptable for us to label those we disagree with, even the most extreme of them, creatards, fuckwits and morons? I've done it. Does that mean I am no better than them. Does it mean I'm committing the same offense as them.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 20:57:56 UTC | #880278

                                   ike's Avatar Comment 22 by ike

Is it acceptable for us to label those we disagree with, even the most extreme of them, creatards, fuckwits and morons?

Only if they are in the snubbing business.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:07:01 UTC | #880283

Neil5150's Avatar Comment 23 by Neil5150

FYI -----10/12 @ 6 pm EST! MICHIGAN ATHEISTS TO HOLD LAST-MINUTE PROTEST TO SUPPORT RICHARD DAWKINS AND AGAINST THE BLATANT DISCRIMINATION OF ATHEISTS BY THE WYNDGATE GOLF CLUB.

ARLENE-MARIE, Michigan State Director for American Atheists, along with the Michigan Atheists, an Affiliate of American Atheists, is putting together a last-minute protest of the Wyndgate Golf Club in Rochester, MI.

The Wyndgate canceled the CFI-Michigan event that was scheduled to take place there when the owner decided that he did not want to be associated with individuals like Richard Dawkins or his philosophies.

WHAT: Protest of Wyndgate for discrimination against atheists. WHEN: Wednesday, October 12th from 6 pm until 7:30 pm. WHERE: Northwest corner of Adams & Silverbell in Rochester

DETAILS: There is a strip mall located at the intersection with a Kroger's store (4888 Adams Rd). Park in the strip mall's lot on the far east side, and then take the short foot path to the paved corner section. This demonstration is taking place at the exact time as Richard Dawkins' speech in Rochester.

Bring signs and banners that identify your group as well as signs in support of Dawkins or speaking out against the discrimination against atheists by the Wyndgate Golf Club.

CONTACT: For more information please contact Arlene-Marie at (313) 938-5960 or via email at amarie@atheists.org.

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:28:27 UTC | #880292

Philoctetes                                        's Avatar Comment 24 by Philoctetes

While an ardent supporter of Richard and offended by the action of the country club in snubbing him, I wonder about my feelings if the situation was reversed. Suppose some strident, outspoken fundamentalist preacher was booked to spit bile at a public auditorium, wouldn't we applaud if it were revoked? It is easy for us to disagree with a view and espouse our readiness to die to defend the right to promote it, but I'm happy when religious loonies (like say Hamza) have a metaphorical sock inserted into their mouths. I've always considered myself a liberal, and the foregoing sounds very illiberal, but I think it helps us to understand the mindset of those "offended" by Richard. It is an emotional response and I flatter myself that the difference between "us" and "them" is that "we" move on to rationalise and so temper our reaction.

Bloody hell, illiberal and pompous in the same post!

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:43:02 UTC | #880314

Philoctetes                                        's Avatar Comment 25 by Philoctetes

PS That looks suspiciously like some skunk behind Richard? :-)

Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:45:31 UTC | #880315

Carl Sai Baba's Avatar Comment 26 by Carl Sai Baba

I know we are supposed to feel insulted or whatever, but it seems so anachronistic that it just makes me laugh. What next, a bunch of club employees in re-enactment costumes grab their muskets and chase Dawkins back across the ocean?

Thu, 13 Oct 2011 05:54:59 UTC | #880394

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 27 by Vorlund

CfI book a country club for RD to give a talk.

Country club find out that RD is an atheist.

so far so good............ hang on a a minute you mean they had no idea RD was an atheist before the booking was made? Now that takes some swallowing.

Nobody talks to organisations, inevitably you are dealing with one person in an organisation.

You'll probably find that the booking was made and accepted by reservations staff and then the facilities manager or club manager or some other manager who also happens to be an Xtian fuckwit creationist nutter finds out and orders them to cancel the booking. He/she then fucks off to their little sunday god pestering and tells everyone how they have done the lord's work.

Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:38:19 UTC | #880403

mjwemdee's Avatar Comment 28 by mjwemdee

Sent this morning:

Please bring to the attention of the owner of Rochester Hills Country Club the following: In breaking his legally-binding contract with Professor Richard Dawkins, who was engaged to deliver a speech at the Club, the owner not only commits a legal offence (notwithstanding that this is a private venue), but also violates the basic principles of the American Constitution and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, all apparently because of a philosophical difference between himself and Professor Dawkins. This is also, I imagine, a public relations disaster for him, the Club and his employees. There is already talk, in the Detroit area, of boycotting the club's facilities. I have my own standpoint on the merits or demerits of belief. I make up my own mind on such matters, and do not need the likes of your Club managers deciding for me. It looks very much as if you fear an eminent speaker whose prime motive is to promote reason and logical thought, and in cancelling his talk you have simply made his point for him. The cancellation appears to be the result of sheer bigotry and censorship. All in all, stupidity of the highest order. Yours truly Martin John Waddington BA RSA LRAM

Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:16:36 UTC | #880482

PERSON's Avatar Comment 29 by PERSON

Comment 12 by glenister_m

A little doublethink goe$$$ a long way.

Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:48:39 UTC | #880504

PERSON's Avatar Comment 30 by PERSON

Comment 21 by SomersetJohn

No. When there is a pile of shit and a flower, use the right adjectives. Make sure you know what you're looking at, sure. Maybe appreciate that a really big pile of shit gives out warmth, and that the flower will soon die. But don't pretend they're the same. That's not bigotry. Bigotry is assessing people independently of all facts beyond their tribal identifiers.

Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:52:49 UTC | #880505