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← [UPDATE - BBC link added] 300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

[UPDATE - BBC link added] 300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain - Comments

C.Wood's Avatar Comment 1 by C.Wood

Hard to find words to describe what this piece made me feel. Wish they get a fair trial and end their lives in jail where they belong. The suffering they caused cannot be undone...

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:19:00 UTC | #881546

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 2 by Atheist Mike

The Catholic church is the radicalised church of Christianity, its leaders are responsible for the most extremist actions carried in the name of the Christian God. Even though it seems tamed now I don't expect an end to the controversies until the papacy falls. It's like a centralised Al Qaeda.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:23:05 UTC | #881547

green and dying's Avatar Comment 3 by green and dying

There's something really sinister about nuns.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:24:35 UTC | #881549

Pall J.'s Avatar Comment 4 by Pall J.

Horrific if true, of course, but this is the daily mail we're speaking of.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:33:48 UTC | #881551

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 5 by SomersetJohn

Magdalene homes in UK and Ireland. 300,000 kidnapped babies in Spain. Children raped, abused and threatened worldwide.

Moral leadership by the Roman Catholic Church.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:39:35 UTC | #881553

green and dying's Avatar Comment 6 by green and dying

Comment 4 by Pall J. :

Horrific if true, of course, but this is the daily mail we're speaking of.

Oh come on, not everything in there is rubbish. When an article is based entirely on a reliable source (the BBC), it seems unlikely that they're making it up. If I watch the documentary and it has none of the things in this article then obviously I'll change my mind, but that doesn't seem likely to happen.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:45:00 UTC | #881557

stuhillman's Avatar Comment 7 by stuhillman

I don't want to make light of this but I have a problem with the numbers. 300,000 babies over 50 years. That's 16 babies a day, seven days a week for 50 years! It just doesn't add up. I'm sure that some of these terrible actions did occur but I just can't come to terms with the numbers. I'll try to watch the program on Tuesday and see what the BBC has to say about this.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:02:09 UTC | #881562

wisnoskij's Avatar Comment 8 by wisnoskij

Comment 6 by green and dying :

Comment 4 by Pall J. :

Horrific if true, of course, but this is the daily mail we're speaking of.

Oh come on, not everything in there is rubbish.

When something is not proven false, then we should assume it is true as long as it aligns with our previous biases and beliefs.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:07:56 UTC | #881564

permafrost's Avatar Comment 9 by permafrost

Hi everyone, this is my first post, though I've been following the site for quite a long time. I'm from Spain and there are a couple of comments I would like to offer on the present issue.

First, the basic facts seem to be true: there were lots of babies stolen from their parents. This has been reported and researched on the mainstream Spanish press. Those stories are as serious as investigative reporting gets (which might not count for much in Spain :-), I'm just being facetious). Some of those cases have been or are being investigated by the public attorney office

Second, the numbers given by the news story (300.000 babies) are most certainly not correct. It does not detract from the sordid reality of the problem, but exaggerations of this kind are not necessary to make it look really bad. Just do the maths: 6.000 babies stolen every year? Doubtful, that would be an industry. Again, this is not to downplay the tragedy. As a parent myself I can imagine... well I prefer not to imagine.

Finally, at this point it is not entirely clear how it all worked. There might have been different loosely connected groups or a few independent ones, some including members of the church and some others not. While the involvement of some nuns and priests seem well supported by evidence, I am not sure that it can be attributed to a systematic conspiracy by "the Church" as an institution (as much as one may despise it). Again, all this qualifications are in no way meant as a defense of evildoers.

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:08:49 UTC | #881565

I Deny's Avatar Comment 10 by I Deny

Comment 7 by stuhillman :

I don't want to make light of this but I have a problem with the numbers. 300,000 babies over 50 years. That's 16 babies a day, seven days a week for 50 years! It just doesn't add up. I'm sure that some of these terrible actions did occur but I just can't come to terms with the numbers. I'll try to watch the program on Tuesday and see what the BBC has to say about this.

I was thinking the same thing. Although nothing with the phrase "Catholic _____ Scandal" seems to surprise me anymore.. I just assume they've done it all

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:09:26 UTC | #881566

Daniel Williams's Avatar Comment 11 by Daniel Williams

As if my opinion of the Catholic church wasn't low enough, now this.

  • Tracey, Scotland, 16/10/2011 13:26
  • Says it all I think.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:10:18 UTC | #881567

    green and dying's Avatar Comment 12 by green and dying

    Comment 8 by wisnoskij :

    When something is not proven false, then we should assume it is true as long as it aligns with our previous biases and beliefs.

    The only bias I'm using is thinking the BBC is a reliable source.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:13:46 UTC | #881569

    sanban's Avatar Comment 13 by sanban

    RDF is now using The Daily Mail as a trusted source? Really?

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:25:36 UTC | #881571

    permafrost's Avatar Comment 14 by permafrost

    Well, I don't know the Daily Mail, but I think El PaĆ­s (the most widely read mainstream paper in Spain) can generally be trusted on this. For those of you who understand Spanish here is the link: http://www.elpais.com/especial/vidas-robadas/

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:37:00 UTC | #881574

    Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 15 by Neodarwinian

    Exaggerated, or not, it is still another twist on the catholic church and it's constant belief that it is a law onto itself.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:37:16 UTC | #881575

    strangebrew's Avatar Comment 16 by strangebrew

    Comment 8 by wisnoskij

    When something is not proven false, then we should assume it is true as long as it aligns with our previous biases and beliefs.

    Like the 'magikal sky fairy' xians drool over methinks!

    No one can prove that a sociopathic, homicidally bent, sexually inadequate waste of existential space does NOT exist therefore god...yeah right...that figures!

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:48:40 UTC | #881576

    MrPickwick's Avatar Comment 17 by MrPickwick

    How reliable is that paper? (I'm from Barcelona). Judging by what that webpage consider "news" in the right column (I'm using adblock), I guess not reliable at all. Am I wrong?

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:48:40 UTC | #881577

    strangebrew's Avatar Comment 18 by strangebrew

    Comment 17 by MrPickwick

    How reliable is that paper?

    Paper not... BBC different!

    The piece is alluding to an upcoming BBC documentary.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:52:04 UTC | #881578

    Austin K's Avatar Comment 19 by Austin K

    Don't trust the daily mail, but BBC usually puts on trustworthy documentaries. I can't even describe how awful this is. Stealing babies! F you Catholic church! Your time is up!

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:55:20 UTC | #881579

    Jonathan Dore's Avatar Comment 20 by Jonathan Dore

    Yes, surprising to see this surfacing in the Daily Fail, given its editor Paul Dacre's pugilistic Catholicism, but I guess if they were going to run the story at all there's no way they could have spun the Church out of it.

    One thing the article didn't actually address is where the money went -- and these seem to have been serious sums, if they had to be paid in instalments over ten years. Clearly it didn't go to the biological parents. So did it go to the Church? To individual priests or nuns? To hospitals? Follow the money and a lot more dirty laundry will be revealed.

    Stealing babies from "inappropriate" parents and giving them to pious ones is a well-worn tactic of the Catholic Church in league with fascistic governments -- the same thing happened in Argentina and Chile under their varied dictatorships in the 70s. Still, to add to the injury of the original theft the insult of actually doing it for profit marks yet another astonishing new low for that disgusting organization of international bandits and racketeers.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:03:31 UTC | #881581

    aquilacane's Avatar Comment 21 by aquilacane

    What bothers me is the notion that it is acceptable to take babies from bad [single] mothers and sell them to better [married] families (Their thoughts not mine). That notion is taught and reinforced as a religious concept. Any institution that teaches that, is a pathetic institution. I wouldn't blink if it turns out the church was fully aware and approved. How did the addoptive parents get in contact with these groups? Who directed them to the appropriate people? How was it undetected for 50 years and who labeled the mothers hysterical?

    A doctor can keep you from seeing the body but not from seeing the burial; that takes a differnt authority and a very sick, bitter, demented sense of morallity.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:09:26 UTC | #881583

    Byrneo's Avatar Comment 22 by Byrneo

    More filth from the one true church.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:18:07 UTC | #881585

    Alan Dente's Avatar Comment 23 by Alan Dente

    The DM is a source in the same way that any other source is a source. It should be critically appraised, but there is nothing wrong in citing and discussing the information should it come through such appraisal.

    The speech by Enda Kenny after the Cloyne report (and the ongoing trial of the American bishop announced this week) suggests that perhaps we are finally seeing movement by the right-thinking World (Catholic and non-Catholic) regarding this horrific racket known as the Holy See. I for one hope this is the case. It is down to those who oppose the RCC to ensure that measured, reasoned argument is used to criticise the Vatican- I hope that together we can bring the corrupt hierarchy down through informed and well thought-out, but fierce, debate.

    If anyone has not seen Kenny's speech, I would seriously recommend watching it- in my opinion, one of the great speeches of modern times (it was on the NYT website for a while, but should be readily available on youtubes or whatever also).

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:19:58 UTC | #881586

    Quine's Avatar Comment 24 by Quine

    As it happened, Rome did not fall in a day. As much as I would like to speed things up, I don't think the RCC will collapse too quickly either, instead, we will be made to (uncomfortably) watch the slow decay.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:31:13 UTC | #881589

    monkey's uncle's Avatar Comment 25 by monkey's uncle

    Comment 12 by green and dying :

    Comment 8 by wisnoskij :

    When something is not proven false, then we should assume it is true as long as it aligns with our previous biases and beliefs.

    The only bias I'm using is thinking the BBC is a reliable source.

    Also the fact that it is entirely consistent with the way that the catholic authorities have behaved all around the world.

    If they stay true to form, we can expect olympic standard wriggling from those in authority with multiple attempts to divert the blame onto others. Are they really so stupid that they don't realise that the constant obfuscation & damage limitation attempts can do no more than buy them a little time & in the long run will be counterproductive.

    The only good thing that will come out of this is that another country will learn (although regrettably, the hard way) what an ugly, evil, sinister, self-serving organisation the catholic church is. Ireland went through this process & it it heartening to see the scepticism & distrust that is directed towards catholic priests today.

    Bit by bit, they are losing their grip on people & the fools don't realise that they are doing it to themselves.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:36:54 UTC | #881590

    Stevehill's Avatar Comment 26 by Stevehill

    If some dubious Balkan mafia gang were established to be guilty of child trafficking on this scale, there is no way they would be permitted to continue to exist as an entity and the godfathers would be rounded up, tried, and incarcerated for a very long time.

    But a billion Catholics will confess their "sins" to members of this mafia and ask for absolution, and nothing will ever change, until sane human beings desert the cult in droves.

    Easy to see the reason for the opposition to abortion: bad for business.

    Well done, BBC... I shall watch with interest tomorrow.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:48:31 UTC | #881593

    nok's Avatar Comment 27 by nok

    Once again the RC church has produced in me the feeling of "shocked, but not surprised."

    If the numbers given are correct, I suspect that many of them would have been taken during the Franco regime, pushing up the average per day figure. As the story says, a lot of the children were stolen from enemies of the state or undesirables.

    So here I am again, left with that futile anger that I'm sure so many of must have.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:57:06 UTC | #881595

    Carlinlives's Avatar Comment 28 by Carlinlives

    I put nothing past these papists, especially when aligned with fascists, but I simply can't buy the numbers here. Color me skeptical.

    But if even 1% of that 300,000 is true and the nuns and nurses really did show grieving mothers the corpse of another infant, then it's time to bomb the Vatican.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:57:07 UTC | #881596

    Jumped Up Chimpanzee's Avatar Comment 29 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee

    If this story is anywhere near accurate (or even if it is exaggerated by 1000%) this qualifies as a true mass atrocity.

    Any other organisation with so many allegations of atrocities against humanity, would have either closed itself down or been closed down. (Look at what happened to News International after a scandal that is almost utterly insignificant compared to this story, not to mention the ongoing child sex abuse scandal.)

    It's truly astonishing how little the media has hounded the Catholic Church about the sex abuse scandals. I wonder how they'll treat these new revelations. I bet they will barely get a mention, even if it turns out the allegations are entirely true. Didn't someone say, "How religion poisons everything". How indeed.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:57:17 UTC | #881597

    Mrkimbo's Avatar Comment 30 by Mrkimbo

    We know that this loathsome church was doing this in Ireland - we know that they did it here in Australia - so there is no reason to doubt that they did in Spain, especially under that good Catholic arsehole, Franco. Only the numbers seem inflated, as others have mentioned. Monstrous evil and cruelty.

    Vaticano delenda est.

    Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:15:11 UTC | #881601