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← Afghan woman's choice: 12 years in jail or marry her rapist and risk death

Afghan woman's choice: 12 years in jail or marry her rapist and risk death - Comments

Metamag's Avatar Comment 1 by Metamag

This is nothing new, many worst things have happened legally since Americans invaded, took control and established law in the country.

The question is why are American lives being still lost to preserve such depraved country, why is American public not outraged that their soldiers are losing lives to safeguard the most depraved country on the planet?

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:05:02 UTC | #892476

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 2 by Border Collie

"Shockingly, Gulnaz's case is common in Afghanistan." Shockingly? To whom? Since when?

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:05:11 UTC | #892477

Metamag's Avatar Comment 3 by Metamag

It is sickening to hear average Americans say that they support their troops because they are fighting for freedom.

Tip to imbecilic ignorant American public, your troops haven't fought for freedom since World War II.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:08:48 UTC | #892478

MarkMyers's Avatar Comment 4 by MarkMyers

They are not the only ones who believe that trash!

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:11:29 UTC | #892480

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 5 by Border Collie

The EU is in a big state of abject denial and will probably remain that way. How did such insipid individuals within the EU gain such unbalanced power over peoples' lives? I'm not terribly knowledgeable about the EU, but it does seem that, from an American perspective, it really doesn't have a decent grasp of reality.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:12:42 UTC | #892481

achromat666's Avatar Comment 6 by achromat666

There is nothing about this that doesn't fill me with disgust.

For any clearly and demonstrably backward and openly misogynistic country to exist is unthinkable, and yet here is Afghanistan displaying its ignorance for all to see.

Abysmal.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:16:51 UTC | #892482

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 7 by Neodarwinian

Truly disgusting! Both Afghanistan and the EU are " racing " each other to the barbaric finish line. Someone must end this nonsense and one of the steps toward that is no realpolitik in regards to this practice, but actual pressure from the nations involved here.

Also, education of Afghan women ( and men ) in alternatives to the " choice " this young woman was given.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 01:39:28 UTC | #892485

Metamag's Avatar Comment 8 by Metamag

give her child a family and restore her honor.

I just checked the dictionary to make sure I'm not missing something but I would still prefer if people writing these articles would put "honor" under quotes.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:03:31 UTC | #892487

DaveUK9xx's Avatar Comment 9 by DaveUK9xx

Utterly disgusting, barbaric and a sharp reminder that this planet is nowhere near being able to call itself civilized yet and will probably be unlikely to for centuries into the future.

Yet again this is all about religion and the evil and suffering it spawns in so many nations when fundamentalists continue to apply stone age doctrines to the solution of modern day problems.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:09:41 UTC | #892488

Metamag's Avatar Comment 10 by Metamag

Comment 9 by DaveUK9xx :

Utterly disgusting, barbaric and a sharp reminder that this planet is nowhere near being able to call itself civilized yet and will probably be unlikely to for centuries into the future.

Yes, it is glaringly obvious that humans are only potentially rational animals and that rationality has to be carefully constructed and rigorously maintained no matter the overall accumulation of knowledge and advances in science in technology.

USA is a perfect example of how a first-world country population can regress.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:24:55 UTC | #892489

Functional Atheist's Avatar Comment 11 by Functional Atheist

This is the precise sort of case that illustrates the fallacy of false equivalency.

Too many people assert that there no difference between the offenses of the monotheistic faiths. Whether out of reflexive anti-Americanism or a politically correct refusal to draw distinctions between cultures that are in any way harsher on non-Western societies than they are on Western societies, inevitably there will be nonsensical bleating that there is NO difference--NONE--between Christian-majority and Islamic-majority societies.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 02:47:57 UTC | #892491

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 12 by Atheist Mike

Comment 10 by Metamag :

USA is a perfect example of how a first-world country population can regress.

America never regressed. A good part of their population simply always has been foolish and extremely religious. Their country owe their success to a few rather arguably apolitical and not particularly religious men who had hopes of grandeur. Luckily for them, and for all of us, the men who founded that country protected the basis of rationality with a sacred document infused with nationalism called 'the constitution'.

It still has great potential, provided the American people themselves embrace some of the rationalism found in that document and not just the nationalistic aspect of it.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 03:14:59 UTC | #892492

Net's Avatar Comment 13 by Net

i'm sorry. which century are we living in again? or do different parts of the globe exist in time zones i haven't heard about??

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 03:32:01 UTC | #892493

Sean_W's Avatar Comment 14 by Sean_W

Where are the family, friends and neighbors responses? I bet it's not unlikely that when women are raped or abused like this that their family doesn't say a word to the authorities and instead seeks justice for themselves, so what happened here? What does the family think?

We are told only this:

In Afghanistan, this brought her not sympathy, but prosecution.
The only way around the dishonor of rape, or adultery in the eyes of Afghans, is to marry her attacker.

Well, horseshit. There must be countless fathers that would have killed that man. Also, we know that her aunt advised her to keep the child to protect her innocence, that's hardly indicative of her feeling dishonored by her niece.

Are these reporters forbidden from asking a simple question like, "Why should your daughter/sister/friend/neighbor be punished for being raped?" and reporting specific responses from real people?

Absent useful information like that, I'm inclined to think that what's really happening is that the Afghans are still being held prisoner by thugs, and so the story should read "in the eyes of Afghan thugs" and not Afghans in general. In general they would probably like very much to protect their daughters and friends from horrific injustices like these.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 04:28:10 UTC | #892496

Eyerish's Avatar Comment 15 by Eyerish

This barbaric society has not moved out of the stone age - sorry but it needs to be said. The politicians in Afganistan aren't making it any better and in fact they seem to be happy to take steps backwards when it comes to 'human rights' and just plain decency and equality. I'm guessing it is because they know that to stay in power the must appeal to the lowest common denominator - the men of the Taliban and other male tribal extremists.

This poor woman is faced with a terrible choice because of this backward religion and culture that feeding each other on a race to the bottom. She is much safer in jail unfortunately. She said that she would marry him so her daughter will have a mother. But even if she restores so called 'honor' to her family through marriage she will probably be killed and then her innocent daughter will be deprived a mother regardless.

We cannot turn a blind eye to this kind of thing and I know that there will be people out there that would feel that because it doesn't affect them directly or that their cultural backgrounds should be respected or what is one life out of 7 billion. Well her life is just as important as anyone else - especially to her and her daughter. We wouldn't tolerate it in our own backyard but the world is our backyard and we should strive to make it a better place for all.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 04:48:17 UTC | #892499

MilitantNonStampCollector's Avatar Comment 16 by MilitantNonStampCollector

Demonstrable proof that some cultures are better than others.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 04:56:00 UTC | #892500

caseybvdc74's Avatar Comment 17 by caseybvdc74

Personally I think it's going to take generations to change Afghanistan. Hopefully the younger generations will use the infrastructure the U.S has built for them and learn to produce capital not "warriors". It may look bad now, but I'm optimistic that in ten to twenty years the country will start to change for the better. I guess only time will tell.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 04:59:34 UTC | #892501

InYourFaceNewYorker's Avatar Comment 18 by InYourFaceNewYorker

You are all being disrespectful in criticizing them! It's their Cultureā„¢! Any criticism you make is from the bias of your Cultureā„¢ and you are not in any position to judge! Racists.

(Yes, that was sarcasm)

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:03:24 UTC | #892502

Sjoerd Westenborg's Avatar Comment 19 by Sjoerd Westenborg

Comment 14 by manilla_wise :

Absent useful information like that, I'm inclined to think that what's really happening is that the Afghans are still being held prisoner by thugs, and so the story should read "in the eyes of Afghan thugs" and not Afghans in general. In general they would probably like very much to protect their daughters and friends from horrific injustices like these.

You make a very good point. But I would change: 'in general they' to 'part of the population'. I've seen too many stories featuring fathers killing their own daughters and mothers leaving their children to the 'mercy' of the court to be convinced that in general they aren't as brainwashed as they are made out to be.

But I do fondly remember the story of a whole family supporting their daughter after a group-rape and even fleeing the region to stay with her. There are decent people to be found all over the world.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:05:30 UTC | #892503

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 20 by Atheist Mike

It makes you think about the paradox of globalisation. It's been 60 years since the end of Western imperialism, all countries are given the tools and the values to build self-respecting democratic societies and only very few actually tried to prosper, most either wallowing in the repugnant and stagnant waters of corruption or going back down the slippery slope of barbarism, using the achievements of the free world in science to better impose reactionism.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:38:47 UTC | #892506

RDfan's Avatar Comment 21 by RDfan

Comment 18 by InYourFaceNewYorker:

Racists.

I couldn't agree more. Well, actually, I could. It's clear to me too that this poor Afghan girl has little choice in the matter except to marry her rapist. Rape and its victim, looked at from the grand scheme of things, is a lesser concern compared to the fabric of society. From the point of view of restoring honor and respect to her family and community (the real,unwitting, victims in this entire saga, least we should forget), she must consummate her crime - having sex (all-be-it without consent) out of wedlock - via marriage. By this simple act of marriage, she will kill four birds with one stone: bring dignity to the family/community; restore her rapist's/husband's honor; restore her own standing; and give the unborn child the chance to live a life free of stigma. In doing this, the whole of society will be restored and life can continue as happily as before. The Afghans (most of them, I presume) clearly see this, and so does the EU (or some of it). It takes a racist with cultural superiority complexes, and with a view of individual rights as trumping those of society, not to see this.

At least that's the "logic" of the judicial system in Afghanistan, AFAIK from this case.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:40:20 UTC | #892507

Metamag's Avatar Comment 22 by Metamag

Comment 14 by manilla_wise :

Where are the family, friends and neighbors responses?

What the hell...family members are usually the first ones to kill rape victims in islamic hellholes.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:50:45 UTC | #892509

mmurray's Avatar Comment 23 by mmurray

Comment 20 by Atheist Mike :

It makes you think about the paradox of globalisation. It's been 60 years since the end of Western imperialism, all countries are given the tools and the values to build self-respecting democratic societies and only very few actually tried to prosper, most either wallowing in the repugnant and stagnant waters of corruption or going back down the slippery slope of barbarism, using the achievements of the free world in science to better impose reactionism.

Are you seriously suggesting the West hasn't interfered in any Third World countries since 1950?

Even if that was true the Soviets were in Afghanistan until 1989 and only left after 10 years of fighting and a casualty count of around a million. How does that fit in with giving them the tools for democracy? I guess they got lots of Kalashnikovs.

Michael

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 05:52:13 UTC | #892510

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 24 by Atheist Mike

@Comment 23 by mmurray

Well ask yourself what it would have become without the yanks and the soviets. What do you think? An islamic state or a liberal paradise? If Iran and the Saudis are any indication I think it would have been the former. Their ideas of honour in rape and their will to enforce this law didn't come from us nor the russians.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 06:10:28 UTC | #892512

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 25 by Vorlund

So much for the abrahamic god and the expectations of how 'good faithful' people should behave in compliance with his laws.

Women are your tillage go into them as you will.

If they don't do as they are told thrash them but don't knock out their eyes or teeth (damaged chattels are worth less).

If they bring shame on your house by submitting to rape kill them

If your son rapes a woman kill her he was just an innocent victim of his urges

If your daughter is raped you should kill her she may have encouraged the rapist by showing her ankle or her hair and deserves to die.

This is so far removed from humanity, we could be observing events on a different planet. Clearly some cultures have a long way to go before any description approaching civilised can be applied to them.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 07:37:00 UTC | #892517

DavidMcC's Avatar Comment 26 by DavidMcC

What's shocking about this is that it has nothing to do with the Taliban, from whom you would expect this kind of sh*t. Perhaps Mr Karzai would like to explain why it is happening.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 08:30:44 UTC | #892520

mmurray's Avatar Comment 27 by mmurray

Comment 26 by DavidMcC :

What's shocking about this is that it has nothing to do with the Taliban, from whom you would expect this kind of sh*t.

That's because this attitude that women are property is not just a result of Islam. It's a cultural attitude that goes back a long way into the past. The Romans expected a raped woman to commit suicide. Hindu's expected widows to jump on their dead husband's funeral pyre.

Parts of Afghanistan also are well known for the old Greek and Roman tradition of pederasty which Islam supposedly forbids.

Michael

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 08:48:39 UTC | #892524

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 28 by Premiseless

I am not shocked or disgusted at this. I'm past emotional response to this sort of information. My mind already absorbs the reality that this day millions of atrocities will take place and this is all part and parcel of who humans are as a collective. The woman has absorbed the slavery of her own mind to a life she would never choose.

We all kid ourselves that rationality has any real foundation for use by everyone. Most humans will never be afforded such a 5 STAR existence.

Religion has become the second order, at least, dictator to her life. Simply following the tenets of religious faith are less sacrificial than what she has had to submit her whole being to. The master slave mindset, so old an attachment to human behaviour, is well highlighted here. It stands in front of the world and says, "Look how irrational I am. Look how dominant I am. Just look how I can dictate to every free thinker on planet Earth my absolute dictator reality and no person has the wherewithal to change this one jot."

This is a prime example of the sum total of all human intellect observing a mindless position and then blaming each other in support of its continuance.

This is the sum total of human intellect attached to various superorganisms all wrestling amongst each other. Knots are tied as others are undone. It is chaos, a position Gulnaz well knows has become her unchosen choices in life to date and that yet to be lived.

The only powers any human has to assist the problem momenta for all the Gulnaz realities the world over, no matter how we are inclined to blame individuals one way or the other, amounts to a response from them which at best can only ever be akin to sprinkling silver nitrate on a raincloud. The weather looms large in spite of it all, and there is only so much silver nitrate that only so many people have.

We all know this yet we all chant as though somehow we have forces in motion to overcome this. We are all enslaved to our token moral gestures against a monster we know is getting ever stronger. None of us have the skills to gather mass cooperation against what stares us directly in the face. Most of us, since the situation has become much greater than any of our lifetimes, cannot fail to be distracted by the problems of our existence or the privilege of it, to invest anything of ourselves that could muster a puff of wind against what we all know to be occurring in ways that even get close to knowing what to do about everything that needs to be done. The relentless swing of dogma is well summed up in the life of Gulnaz. Unreasonable dominance is walking proudly amongst us. Humans simply enter the casino and tend to compete to win as many chips as they are able for the period of the life they have in it. This becomes the dominant theme!

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:51:38 UTC | #892534

DavidMcC's Avatar Comment 29 by DavidMcC

Comment 27 by mmurray :

Comment 26 by DavidMcC :

What's shocking about this is that it has nothing to do with the Taliban, from whom you would expect this kind of sh*t.

That's because this attitude that women are property is not just a result of Islam. It's a cultural attitude that goes back a long way into the past. The Romans expected a raped woman to commit suicide. Hindu's expected widows to jump on their dead husband's funeral pyre.

Parts of Afghanistan also are well known for the old Greek and Roman tradition of pederasty which Islam supposedly forbids. Michael

That is true, but I am talking about Modern times

Following outcries after each instance, there have been various fresh measures passed against the practice, which now effectively make it illegal to be a bystander at an event of sati. The law now makes no distinction between passive observers to the act, and active promoters of the event; all are supposed to be held equally guilty. Other measures include efforts to stop the 'glorification' of the dead women. Glorification includes the erection of shrines to the dead, the encouragement of pilgrimages to the site of the pyre, and the derivation of any income from such sites and pilgrims

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:08:06 UTC | #892537

mmurray's Avatar Comment 30 by mmurray

Comment 29 by DavidMcC :

That is true, but I am talking about Modern times)

Following outcries after each instance, there have been various fresh measures passed against the practice, which now effectively make it illegal to be a bystander at an event of sati. The law now makes no distinction between passive observers to the act, and active promoters of the event; all are supposed to be held equally guilty. Other measures include efforts to stop the 'glorification' of the dead women. Glorification includes the erection of shrines to the dead, the encouragement of pilgrimages to the site of the pyre, and the derivation of any income from such sites and pilgrims

But that's the point isn't it. Modern times haven't arrived in Afghanistan yet.

On the Sati issue I watched documentary a few years back on widows in India being abandoned on the streets by families. In conservative Hindu families a woman's life is still effectively over when she becomes a widow even if she is not actually killed. I think this link is about that documentary or at least on the same topic.

Michael

EDIT: Ah the documentary is here. I don't know if the video will work outside Australia but there's a transcript.

Wed, 23 Nov 2011 11:35:10 UTC | #892543