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← 'Honour' crimes against women in UK rising rapidly, figures show

'Honour' crimes against women in UK rising rapidly, figures show - Comments

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 1 by aquilacane

Men really are the greatest threat to the human race and every other living thing on earth. Not humanity but men. The male half of humanity is the dumbest, most arrogant creature in existence.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:27:20 UTC | #895269

jel's Avatar Comment 2 by jel

I wish these crimes would stop having the word honour appended to them, even in quotes. There is no honour in these crimes.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:28:10 UTC | #895270

Ivan The Not So Bad's Avatar Comment 3 by Ivan The Not So Bad

Also here on the BBC website.

Notice how neither mention the elephant in the room.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:47:51 UTC | #895274

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 4 by Premiseless

Comment 1 by aquilacane :

The male half of humanity is the dumbest, most arrogant creature in existence.

I resent the seductive emotive reaction that prompts such stereotypical dogma!

I consider both sexes employ irrational and deliberately cruel intent in various guises.

In the case above, the irrationalities of a multibillion dollar industry on the human psyche subvert generations upon their own progeny and the nurture of successive generations neuron fed emotions and reason that provide the permits on lifes meaning.

These problems are inbred in the way you might see genetic traits glaring you in the face. Clearly some of these are directed toward gender, but similarly impose restriction on the other gender doing anything to redress the balance. The true guilty party is the power that is now privileged enough to perpetuate the problem and too weak minded to overthrow the monster collective mindset it spent so long creating. The dogma has become its own reality and has momentum to stop anything from stopping it.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:50:02 UTC | #895275

AtheistEgbert's Avatar Comment 5 by AtheistEgbert

The difficulty with the term 'rising figures' is that we don't know if these acts are increasing or that they're being reported more. Since the claim is that this is the 'tip of the iceberg' I will assume that this is far more widespread, and has been going on unreported and behind a veil for years.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:17:16 UTC | #895278

Linda Ward's Avatar Comment 6 by Linda Ward

There is a tragic case being played out in Canadian courts at the moment.

A man, the sister wife & their son are charged with allegedly murdering 3 of their daughters and the other sister wife:

"Weeks before three sisters were found dead in a car at the bottom of a canal, their father asked a relative for help to drown his eldest daughter, calling her a prostitute for visiting a library, spending time with friends and dating, court heard Tuesday."

Yet each of cultures endorses and promotes religiosity as if it is true and beneficial.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:20:51 UTC | #895281

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 7 by QuestioningKat

Comment 1 by aquilacane :

Men really are the greatest threat to the human race and every other living thing on earth. Not humanity but men. The male half of humanity is the dumbest, most arrogant creature in existence.

I have worked in female dominated situations my entire life and it is definitely a challenge. I wish it were more balanced with men, but men are drawn elsewhere. With a few exceptions, unbalanced environments tend to multiply and magnify negative traits like pettiness, violence, cliquishness, etc.

IMO when men are separated from women the competitiveness, aggressiveness, and likelihood for violence increases. They no longer need to watch their behavior (and suck in their bellies.) Any frustration or need to "save face" with his "brothers" is then taken out on an easy, less aggressive target - women.

It is also my opinion that poor parenting is at the greatest risk to society. Most criminals do not come from loving, well-adjusted homes. Imagine now an entire society that learns that women are inferior and they live in households that reinforce this attitude.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:31:31 UTC | #895283

Metamag's Avatar Comment 8 by Metamag

Of course such crimes are rising..

When you have multiculturalism instead of assimilation this is what happens. Same thing in Netherlands and every other European country infested with muslims and multiculturalism.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:57:51 UTC | #895290

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 9 by Richard Dawkins

Religion poisons everything, but Islam is in a toxic league of its own.

Richard

By the way, it's a minor point compared with all the other horrors in this article, but cousin marriage, such as was about to be forced on poor Maya, is not a good idea. I've just had my genome completely sequenced for a forthcoming television documentary. I am happy to say it turns out that I have an unusually healthy genome, but even so I was impressed to see the numerous red dots on my gene map, representing my many dozens of lethal or sub-lethal genes. Everyone has them. Almost all are recessive, which is why we are still alive, but if we marry a cousin there would be a significant increase in risk in the case of every one of those red dots.

If you love your cousin very much, you may consider it worth the risk. Darwin did, although he worried about it later, and he and Emma loved each other all their lives. To marry somebody you have never met and very probably won't even like is a recipe for disaster, whether you are cousins or not. To marry an unknown cousin is to compound the error. The cousin marriage that Maya's loathsome male relatives tried to force on her was not only inhuman and cruel, it was also genetically very stupid.

But then the combination of stupid with inhuman and cruel is par for the course where the religion of peace is concerned.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:12:04 UTC | #895296

MilitantNonStampCollector's Avatar Comment 10 by MilitantNonStampCollector

Comment 1 by aquilacane :

Men really are the greatest threat to the human race and every other living thing on earth. Not humanity but men. The male half of humanity is the dumbest, most arrogant creature in existence.


That's a potent oversimplification. To blame all men is to not think clearly and frankly I'm offended at the idea of being lumped in with all the halfwits. As for this, why not blame the ideas of Islam instead of all those stupid men?

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:17:25 UTC | #895298

Carlinlives's Avatar Comment 11 by Carlinlives

Not once in the article is Islam mentioned. Political correctness defeats intellectual honesty once again.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:21:51 UTC | #895300

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 12 by Atheist Mike

Gotta love the labour party, we have our own little saudi arabia now thanks to them.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:42:36 UTC | #895305

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 13 by Premiseless

Comment 7 by QuestioningKat :

I have worked in female dominated situations my entire life and it is definitely a challenge. I wish it were more balanced with men, but men are drawn elsewhere. With a few exceptions, unbalanced environments tend to multiply and magnify negative traits like pettiness, violence, cliquishness, etc.

I agree.

IMO when men are separated from women the competitiveness, aggressiveness, and likelihood for violence increases. They no longer need to watch their behavior (and suck in their bellies.) Any frustration or need to "save face" with his "brothers" is then taken out on an easy, less aggressive target - women.

This appears to me to be loaded with non sequiturs. What you say may in fact be the consequence of evolutionary, sociological, egotistical and historical forces, but then I would say women, given the opportunity, exhibit as much potential to replicate similar behaviours. The speculations you cite seem to me to be gender loaded rather than seeking the source of the problems. And I also think each gender is deeply conditioned to promote, much of what it tends to abhor in both genders. A chaotic, emotive cocktail!

It is also my opinion that poor parenting is at the greatest risk to society. Most criminals do not come from loving, well-adjusted homes.

This is proportional to inherited entropy. The birth base. Existential powers are far more easy on the eye to those inheriting power and far more inductive of servility to those lacking privilege. Changing this requires each to make voluntary sacrifices to promote change, which are likelier to fail due the momentum already replicating itself on a vast scale. Expecting mass sacrifice of privilege to induce more, but uncertain, equitability becomes a highly unlikely event when your life is all you have. Changing the existential is a slow cycle most often beyond the lifespan of those seeking it. It's why many simply absolve themselves the rational engagement with a solution they are unlikely to witness. It isn't necessarily ulterior motive that posits the reality you see. Often it is submission to complete despair. Many people have that feeling they are part of a race, family or society they don't identify with. Most won't admit this due other humans suggesting these be sociopathic traits. It's all irony and very cruel. You'd think human intelligence could all sit down and agree just how barbaric the "monster consciousness" really is but I'd guess it would be opportunity for another feeding frenzy.

Imagine now an entire society that learns that women are inferior and they live in households that reinforce this attitude.

Plus there is also the aptitude for suspicion, plus what I can only describe as potential to bow to social dogma and political correctness, being promoted to aggravate allies against each other. It's ironic that some of the most equitably minded get branded with the stick they are mindful to have removed.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:10:45 UTC | #895310

Universeman's Avatar Comment 14 by Universeman

I am curious about how these crimes are being prosecuted, are these people not concerned about the long prison sentences they must surely be receiving for these kinds of crimes? I was glad to read about Maya's story, at least she is under protective custody, but what is insane to me is that the legal systems apparent inability to prevent these kinds of crimes. I realize that nothing is simple about this situation, but these girls are not in Pakistan or Afghanistan, these are British citizens, neighbors of many who post on this forum. Where are the media campaigns, the out reach programs, even the witch hunts, it is so frustrating to me that these kinds of premeditated crimes are on the rise. It seems like the most common response to these questions is that only a small minority of Muslims behave in this manner and that we ought to not stereotype all Muslims as behaving in this manner. Calling religion the root of all evil is almost an understatement, too bad it would be politically incorrect to outlaw religion.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:20:16 UTC | #895313

Border Collie's Avatar Comment 15 by Border Collie

If these murders must be described as other than murder, they should not be termed "honour" killings. They should be termed "fragile, brittle, immature, crybaby, wet-diaper, thumb-sucking Muslim male ego killings". Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, it's also part of their barbaric culture AND the women get involved and it's not "just" Muslims, etc., etc., blah, multi-cultural, blah, but it's primarily Islam and it's primarily the males.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:43:19 UTC | #895323

InYourFaceNewYorker's Avatar Comment 16 by InYourFaceNewYorker

Comment 9 by Richard Dawkins :

Religion poisons everything, but Islam is in a toxic league of its own.

Richard

How DARE you say that? It's their Culture™! We just don't understand their perspective because we've been brainwashed by the White Man™.

In all seriousness, everyone, what really boggles my mind is this: How can a parent, who held their kid in their arms, loved her, bonded with her, all those things that evolutionary psychology explains, suddenly want her dead? Can evolutionary psychology explain how religion can so easily override these powerful instincts?

And another question-- how can a woman who was forced to marry against her will perpetuate this custom instead of saying, "Forget that, I'm not putting my kid through this?"

Julie

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:11:51 UTC | #895329

cheesedoff17's Avatar Comment 17 by cheesedoff17

The problem with many of these immigrants to Europe and the UK is that they were brought up or come from a tribal situation where the individual doesn't really exist. I don't suppose they were given any lessons concerning our culture when they arrived but were just let loose. Their children growing up here are obviously going to adapt to our culture with our individualistic lifestyle only to find themselves at total loggerheads with their parents. It's really tragic and Islam with it's violent, intolerant and misogynous mind set makes matters worse.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:16:32 UTC | #895332

gordon's Avatar Comment 18 by gordon

To blame the Labour Party is simplistic. Immigration is not an easy subject, nor is it simple as the current government is finding now they are in power. Almost every American is the son/daughter /descendant of immigrants. We have a small Island but it could possibly accommodate more if we had more efficient agriculture (although Malthus may eventually be proved correct). In my opinion we have too many people on the planet for our current technologies but I may be wrong. By the way honour crimes are not prevalent in Saudi; abhorrent thought the system is there. Let’s be honest here, most of the honour murders are Pakistani, Kurdish and Somali. Not only is it a religious issue, it is an educational one. Most countries migrate against state murder and this type of killing as they become more educated and secular (America being the bug in the jam). State sponsorship of faith schools here is a step backwards and encourage stupidity and this type of mindset.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:19:14 UTC | #895335

keyfeatures's Avatar Comment 19 by keyfeatures

comment 9 by Richard Dawkins

These killings are far more common in the Kurdish community than the Iranian community as a whole - yet both contain 'muslims'. How would you explain the difference in terms of religion alone?

Cousin marriages in the past would often have been cousins that did not share all grandparents due to polygamy. As polygamy becomes less common / culturally acceptable, the genetic variety of 'cousins' shrinks considerably.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:28:55 UTC | #895338

Ben.Brown's Avatar Comment 20 by Ben.Brown

Comment 1 by aquilacane :

Men really are the greatest threat to the human race and every other living thing on earth. Not humanity but men. The male half of humanity is the dumbest, most arrogant creature in existence.

Men are not the threat. Men who are brought up to have egos, are fuelled by testosterone, taught bullshit and believe they are superior are the threat.

I am a man, I do not believe I am superior, I am not violent, I do not have an ego, I do not believe I can beat anyone up and I do not see women as walking vaginas and asses.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:46:46 UTC | #895345

Atheist Mike's Avatar Comment 21 by Atheist Mike

@comment 18

The labour party's dream of an utopian multicultural society should put every rationalists on their guard. That issues like these became more prevalent this decade is a direct consequence of their policies of mass immigration and non-enforcement of British values. In their view we're all better off adopting a bit of every culture and this can be seen to have affected every bit of British society, from our police forces who now won't dare to do anything that could be denounced as racism by an enthusiastic marxist, to our ridiculously accommodative political and social programs.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 18:24:37 UTC | #895355

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 22 by SomersetJohn

Comment 1 by aquilacane :

Men really are the greatest threat to the human race and every other living thing on earth. Not humanity but men. The male half of humanity is the dumbest, most arrogant creature in existence.

Unless and until you choose to apologise for this crass and frankly silly remark I will not be able to take anything you say seriously.

Now, as to these murders/crimes against humanity. I would suggest a two pronged approach is needed.

  1. Education. Immigrants, especially from areas where these crimes are known to be commonplace, must be educated in why such crimes are anathema in this country, and what and why the penalties are there. They must know what the penalties are

  2. Legislation. Any person, or persons, male or female, who commit such crimes will, after any prison sentence, be deported. I do not care about where they are sent, or what dangers or hardships they will face. If they are in danger in their own country let them pick another. They can find no welcome here.

I know such a move would mostly affect immigrants, not citizens. Personally I would prefer that it target everyone who commits such crimes, reguardless of race creed or colour. I would include hate crimes, such as the murder of Stephen Lawrence. For sufficiently vile crimes I would like to see people stripped of their citizenship and loose all rights conferred by citizenship. (N.B. I don't mean human rights.)

And stop calling them "Honour Killings" Call them child slaughterings.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 18:55:33 UTC | #895360

green and dying's Avatar Comment 23 by green and dying

Comment 22 by SomersetJohn :

For sufficiently vile crimes I would like to see people stripped of their citizenship and loose all rights conferred by citizenship. (N.B. I don't mean human rights.)

Citizenship is considered a human right.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 19:03:43 UTC | #895362

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 24 by QuestioningKat

Comment 9 by Richard Dawkins :

but cousin marriage, such as was about to be forced on poor Maya, is not a good idea. I've just had my genome completely sequenced for a forthcoming television documentary. I am happy to say it turns out that I have an unusually healthy genome, but even so I was impressed to see the numerous red dots on my gene map, representing my many dozens of lethal or sub-lethal genes. Everyone has them. Almost all are recessive, which is why we are still alive, but if we marry a cousin there would be a significant increase in risk in the case of every one of those red dots.

A huge problem facing the Amish community.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 19:09:30 UTC | #895365

Rich Wiltshir's Avatar Comment 25 by Rich Wiltshir

Without doubt their is complicity of religoon leaders who assert their interpretations of the vulgar text. Our society is cowardly; we've institutions that don't have the bottle to pin the accurate label on these CULT KILLINGS.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 19:20:20 UTC | #895368

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 26 by QuestioningKat

Comment 7 by QuestioningKat :

IMO when men are separated from women the competitiveness, aggressiveness, and likelihood for violence increases. They no longer need to watch their behavior (and suck in their bellies.) Any frustration or need to "save face" with his "brothers" is then taken out on an easy, less aggressive target - women.

Comment 13 by Premiseless :

This appears to me to be loaded with non sequiturs. What you say may in fact be the consequence of evolutionary, sociological, egotistical and historical forces, but then I would say women, given the opportunity, exhibit as much potential to replicate similar behaviours. The speculations you cite seem to me to be gender loaded rather than seeking the source of the problems. And I also think each gender is deeply conditioned to promote, much of what it tends to abhor in both genders. A chaotic, emotive cocktail!

Yes, who knows the actual reason, but my being in this type of situation, it's really obvious to me that it exists. Of course this is an issue with women also. Working in female dominated workplaces for most of my life, I've had to deal with it. I prefer the situations in which the ratio was more balance.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 19:22:58 UTC | #895369

Bernard Hurley's Avatar Comment 27 by Bernard Hurley

The article on the BBC web site goes to some pains to avoid mentioning either the I-word or the M-word, presumably out of concern for the feelings of the self-appointed leaders of minority communities. But it is notable the Diana Nammi the director of the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation, a member of such a community, had no such inhibitions. Indeed if it were not for IKWRO these figures would never have been published. This sort of violence would not be tolerated if it were perpetrated men in the indigenous community on their wives and daughters. So could someone explain to me why toleration of it in minority communities is not racism?

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 19:26:14 UTC | #895370

Pitchguest's Avatar Comment 28 by Pitchguest

Comment 21 by Atheist Mike

@comment 18

The labour party's dream of an utopian multicultural society should put every rationalists on their guard. That issues like these became more prevalent this decade is a direct consequence of their policies of mass immigration and non-enforcement of British values. In their view we're all better off adopting a bit of every culture and this can be seen to have affected every bit of British society, from our police forces who now won't dare to do anything that could be denounced as racism by an enthusiastic marxist, to our ridiculously accommodative political and social programs.

Bloody hell, Mike, you really put it on strong, don't you? A rationalist should be on their guard of the notion of a "utopian multicultural society?" Newsflash: utopian implies it is without worry. If people still worry in a utopian society, guess what? It is not a utopian society. But then there isn't such a thing as utopian. It is the ideal. To strive for an ideal is far from how it will turn out practically, but it is a nice thing to look forward to, isn't it? Obviously this isn't what Labour truly wants, but a utopian society -- multicultural utopian society -- isn't a bad thing.

Speaking of culture, I don't like how you refer to it. You don't refer to British culture as "a certain culture", in connection to immigrants and how it differs from theirs. No. You refer it as "our culture." Which is just silly. You should know, Mike, that British culture died off centuries ago. By which I mean this "every country for themselves" worldview died off centuries ago. To be replaced by another more forthcoming, more forgiving worldview. This "our culture" mantra is tired and done.

And to be honest, your argument is skewed. So a multicultural society is not wanted because police forces happen to have an aversion to being called racist? (Which apparently to be announced by "an enthusiastic marxist" - Honestly, I've seen many ridiculous arguments regarding this issue, but that's about topping it.) Or because Britain has "ridiculously accomodative political and social programs" -- which I'm not sure which you mean specifically, but seems has nothing to do with multiculturalism.

Now I don't see anything wrong with multiculturalism, do you know why? Because it has nothing to do with what you just said.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:00:14 UTC | #895373

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 29 by Premiseless

The macrocosm has codes which erase perceived threats, short and long term, to its likelihood of future power.

If you are born to circumstantial suffering, servile to regional or global macrocosms, your life is the collateral damage of the meaning of everyone elses existential. Everyone else has drank your water before the urine reaches your tapwater. Same with your blood!

The tribal codes inherited irrational frameworks still demand sacrifice for their entropy due those communities predating all scientific influence, especially on the traditional and cultural aspects of human existence.

It's a poisonous price for others pleasure, power and structure, direct and indirect.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:05:49 UTC | #895375

InYourFaceNewYorker's Avatar Comment 30 by InYourFaceNewYorker

Maybe one answer would be to reach out to moderate Muslims (wherever they are) and help them get organized and stand up against this. If they really think honor killings are a non-Muslim thing, then they should want to protest against them.

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 20:11:11 UTC | #895377