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← Judgement reserved over Bideford Town Council prayers

Judgement reserved over Bideford Town Council prayers - Comments

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 1 by drumdaddy

Abolish the coronation oath.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:15:38 UTC | #896411

Osiris's Avatar Comment 2 by Osiris

Of course this wouldnt happen in Devon because of the make up of its population, but just suppose a majority of Muslims were suddenly elected to the Council, as they are in some Towns here in the UK....would those same Councillors be happy to get the prayer mat out five times a day ?.

Though it may not seem it in sleepy Devon the mix of politics and religion is the most dangerous cocktail on the planet and should not be encouraged in any way.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:20:52 UTC | #896413

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 3 by Alan4discussion

But George McLaughlan, a former clerk of the council, told the judge in a written statement that prayers were a "valuable part" of meetings.

"For some it is to seek guidance and help on the matters on the agenda to be discussed, while for others it is a time of quiet reflection and contemplation," he said.

.... .. As in a substitute for reading, thinking through the paperwork, and researching facts, before the meetings perhaps!?

"It enables all of us to focus on the matters at hand."

I'm surprised that airline and private pilots don't use this to help their concentration during landings and take-offs, if it is so effective. - Eyes closed and wait for the wheels to touch the tarmac? (Jebus! we're on fire with broken undercarriage!!! Gawd help us!) Take-off! - (I didn't have time to check the instruments, - just pray!!)

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:28:41 UTC | #896414

Rich Wiltshir's Avatar Comment 4 by Rich Wiltshir

It's way past the time to stop polishing the most finely polished turd in history.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:46:21 UTC | #896418

Capt. Bloodeye's Avatar Comment 5 by Capt. Bloodeye

Devon, USA.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:00:31 UTC | #896421

Jumped Up Chimpanzee's Avatar Comment 6 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee

The public sector is so weird! The idea of having a moment of prayer at the start of a normal business meeting in 21st century Britain is utterly inconceivable. Even if some people attending the meeting were religious, they would never suppose that everyone else would be too or that saying a prayer would be a normal thing to do. So, it's really bizarre that it should still be common practice in a council meeting. What period of history do these councillors come from?

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:21:13 UTC | #896427

Carlinlives's Avatar Comment 7 by Carlinlives

Comment 1 by drumdaddy :

Abolish the coronation oath.

Abolish coronations.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 12:43:38 UTC | #896433

jamesrtyrrell's Avatar Comment 8 by jamesrtyrrell

Comment 5 by Capt. Bloodeye :

Devon, USA.

No it's Devon UK, South West England. I grew up near there and really it doesn't really surprise me.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:20:32 UTC | #896444

locka's Avatar Comment 9 by locka

I'm failing to see the problem here. Assume their straw men arguments about the coronation oath and military chaplains were true. More likely is they would remain but the coronation oath would become optional (and the monarch would still opt to take it). And military chaplains would still exist as part of some broader non-denominational counselling service. Big deal.

Either way that doesn't justify inflicting prayer on people who don't wish to partake of it. If council members want to pray I'm sure they live close to a perfectly serviceable church which would be happy to see their business on a Sunday.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:25:04 UTC | #896445

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 10 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 8 by jamesrtyrrell

Comment 5 by Capt. Bloodeye :

Devon, USA.

No it's Devon UK, South West England. I grew up near there and really it doesn't really surprise me.

I detect a hint of sarcasm in Capt. Bloodeye's remark...hence the lack of question mark...but I could be wrong, I often am.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:39:01 UTC | #896446

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 11 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 9 by locka

Either way that doesn't justify inflicting prayer on people who don't wish to partake of it. If council members want to pray I'm sure they live close to a perfectly serviceable church which would be happy to see their business on a Sunday.

Indeed, or the holy rollers on the council can pitch up 15 minutes early and get on with their woo woo before the meeting starts proper. Which flavour of Christian prayer do you all think they engage in? RC, CofE, Methodist, Presbyterian, 7th day Evangelist, Chusch of LDS, on and on, yadda, yadda, yadda?

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:45:39 UTC | #896449

pwuk's Avatar Comment 12 by pwuk

from notalwaysright.com

Which flavour of Christian prayer do you all think they engage in?

"Don’t Tell The Methodists

Customer: “I’d like 50 Christmas stamps, please.”

Me: “What denomination?”

Customer: befuddled “Oh, my, has it come to this? Um, give me 22 Catholic, 12 Presbyterian, 10 Lutheran and 6 of the Baptists.”

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:59:05 UTC | #896452

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 13 by Vorlund

There should be a system of levies for councilors wasting time and public money. If golfers can get fined for making golf last longer by slow playing then this worthy system could be adopted by woo mutterers.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:15:47 UTC | #896455

Jumped Up Chimpanzee's Avatar Comment 14 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee

Comment 8 by jamesrtyrrell

No it's Devon UK, South West England. I grew up near there and really it doesn't really surprise me.

From what I understand though, prayers are a common feature in many council meetings across the country. This is an important test case.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:41:14 UTC | #896460

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 15 by strangebrew

It is just a desperate ploy by the jeebus droolers to make themselves feel relevant in an ever increasing woo less environment.

No idea which cult is drooling here but probably an evangelical brain fart started it off! Evangelical woo-meisters are the usual protagonists when it comes to pushing the envelope of taste and decency ...let alone legality.

Just disappointed that a judge would feel uncomfortable enough to delay pronouncement...cos there is not a great deal to to consider. It is either legal or it is not...and given the secular establishment of government it is indeed an illegal act.

All the mud dust and debris flying about the Coronation Oath, council's involvement in services of remembrance and chaplains not be able to serve in HM Armed Forces, is just xian whining and sensationalist lying to support their delusionally inspired stupidity. Although I have no doubt if they lost this case they would refuse to honour any commitment to these ceremonies just to draw public and press attention to their poor repressed asses and pretend beastly secular intolerance to their sky daddy

They will try and lever their utter crud in to any orifice...maybe they should consider their own as suitable repositories of toxic bollox.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:00:20 UTC | #896463

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 16 by Alan4discussion

Comment 13 by Vorlund

There should be a system of levies for councillors wasting time and public money. If golfers can get fined for making golf last longer by slow playing then this worthy system could be adopted by woo mutterers.

It's not that simple. The councils themselves would never vote for this, and if the government imposed it it would be abused.

When I was a member of a council scrutiny committee, some silly old duffers complained that I was prolonging meetings by asking technical questions (which they didn't understand) about a £2million scheme, when they wanted to be out, having finished their tea and biscuits, and then off home early (after being paid to attend as councillors). The dumbest noddy of the bunch told me I should follow his lead in confining myself to two questions! His two questions were usually of the form: "What age group of children are we talking about here?" - (This was only answered in 5 places in the paperwork he had not read before the meeting!)

All too often the laws of democracy are: "Elect monkeys - live in the jungle"! (apologies to monkeys)

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:00:20 UTC | #896464

Daisy Skipper's Avatar Comment 17 by Daisy Skipper

When I first read this, assumed it was relating to a town in the States. Is this regular practice in the UK? Does the UK have any legislation outlawing this behaviour?

I always find it interesting how the religious seem to need to take things to the extreme to make their point. In the article they stated that stopping the prayers at council would also mean they would have to stop having chaplains available in the army. What?!

It's not unlike the new anti bullying law in Ontario which makes it possible for gays, transgendered, etc to form groups/alliances without fear of reprisal from their school (i.e. the Catholic School Board). The Catholics are now spreading the word that the bill is designed to teach 5 and 6 year olds how to have gay sex and that it is part of some agenda by homosexuals to convert straights into becoming gay.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:33:43 UTC | #896469

Linda Ward's Avatar Comment 18 by Linda Ward

The people of the UK continue to wallow in absurd fantasies promoted by clerics and the monarchy as if they do not have the emotional maturity to just say no, that ain't so.

As I look at the UK for e.g. and the problems with overpopulation and lack of work it makes me wonder why the people there are not willing to address the issue of the monarchy. The folks that grovel before the British monarchy seem to be engaging in willful blindness to the fact that the group receives millions of tax dollar handouts, own 50% of the UK coastline, Regent Street, more homes and estates than any of can imagine and yet nothing is done about that. Surely doing an Ataturk on those people, confiscated the property and using the liquidated assets to finance educating and bringing the population up to speed with modern times is an obvious plan.

Then again the USA is also doomed to failure thanks to the promotion of religiosity over science and common sense.

China and India are looking at the West in the their rear view mirrors.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:58:33 UTC | #896474

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 19 by strangebrew

Comment 17 by Daisy Skipper

Is this regular practice in the UK? Does the UK have any legislation outlawing this behaviour?

No and yes, but it is becoming a little like wack-a-mole with persecuted xians popping up everywhere whining and throwing tantrums. And the present government is not over endowed with rational thought....so it is rapidly becoming a YES YES in response...but we have stronger secular institutions independent from the authorities to jerk the leash when they get all breathless, sweaty and over excited....like the NSS in this article.

Xians are seemingly mounting a concerted effort across the board to be totally irritating and rather embarrassing to their species...but it is more like a last huzzah then any real threat...I expect the Brits will avert their eyes from the unseemly spectacle and consider the next cricket season a tad more important and not be particularly moved to lobby parliament on xian behalf..

The Catholics are now spreading the word that the bill is designed to teach 5 and 6 year olds how to have gay sex and that it is part of some agenda by homosexuals to convert straights into becoming gay

Yep...no surprise...RCC lying to and about kiddies for 2000 years...and when not doing that they are sexually abusing them...fucking demented fuckwits.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:09:53 UTC | #896477

tll's Avatar Comment 20 by tll

Great quote "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer"

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:15:10 UTC | #896479

mr_DNA's Avatar Comment 21 by mr_DNA

I can see why they might draw a connection between banning prayers during council meetings and the coronation. A council meeting is an inappropriate place to bring in Mumbo Jumbo ; its a blending of religion with politics, which as many have pointed out, holds no place in a modern state. The monarchy is a political institution that justifies its existence through religion. The monarch is supposedly 'anointed by God' and of course is the supreme head of the Church of England. It never ceases to amaze me that I meet people who claim to be atheist and yet vehemently support the monarchy and regard it as the corner stone of British society. It pervades all British institutions, whether it be law, civil society or government agencies. They are officially at the heart of every thing. Now I ask in the modern age when most democratic countries have overthrown inherited leadership we persist in something that has no rational justification. After all, the real reason they have power is because their ancestors ruthlessly dominated their fellow men and used religion as a justification for their actions.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:30:20 UTC | #896487

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 22 by Vorlund

Comment 16 by Alan4discussion :

All too often the laws of democracy are: "Elect monkeys - live in the jungle"! (apologies to monkeys)

Sadly there appears to be no criteria or test of competence for office in government other than a lack of one's own tea and biscuits but enough spare time to be both buffoon and tiresome meddler. However I have digressed, perhaps they should be required to demonstrate that they make better decisions with iincantations than without. Or are they merely asking doG not to punish them for making cretinous decisions anyway?

As someone as already suggested the godbots could turn up early and carry out their sacrifices and mutterings before business starts.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:04:45 UTC | #896492

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 23 by strangebrew

Comment 22 by Vorlund

As someone as already suggested the godbots could turn up early and carry out their sacrifices and mutterings before business starts.

Hmmm..methinks the jeebus droolers will not bite on that one...because the point of their theatrics is to perform in front of a virgin audience in order to groom their own righteous ego...they get to be centre stage for a short while. They are flogging the delusion by hawking it anywhere they can get away with it. They are simply showing off.

No point doing what they do among themselves ...no gain.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:26:25 UTC | #896501

I Deny's Avatar Comment 24 by I Deny

it makes me furious when people in a workspace say, "Oh, well you don't HAVE to listen to the prayer." As though that is somehow extra polite. The other councilors would either have to leave the room or hear the others, erm, "focus".

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:13:49 UTC | #896520

MarkOnTheRiver's Avatar Comment 25 by MarkOnTheRiver

Comment 10 by Ignorant Amos :

Comment 8 by jamesrtyrrell

Comment 5 by Capt. Bloodeye :

Devon, USA.

No it's Devon UK, South West England. I grew up near there and really it doesn't really surprise me.

I detect a hint of sarcasm in Capt. Bloodeye's remark...hence the lack of question mark...but I could be wrong, I often am.

Not this time I think Paul. I read it like you. But then again, I could also be wrong. . .

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 20:03:56 UTC | #896556

oeditor's Avatar Comment 26 by oeditor

Judgement reserved until an unspecified date? I wonder why.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:03:10 UTC | #896579

JackR's Avatar Comment 27 by JackR

The council warned if the NSS action was upheld it could have "far-reaching consequences" - including the abolition of the Coronation Oath.

They say this as if it were a bad thing.

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:58:50 UTC | #896591

Rawhard Dickins's Avatar Comment 28 by Rawhard Dickins

....followed by a reading from The Origin of Species, just for balance!

Haven't they got better things to do with our money?

Wed, 07 Dec 2011 23:18:59 UTC | #896621

Graxan's Avatar Comment 29 by Graxan

If you visit the Bideford council's website they offer minutes of their council meetings, at the top of the minutes for each is a record of the prayer session held before the council business begins. Yes, they actually record this.

Thu, 08 Dec 2011 00:03:08 UTC | #896637

chris 116's Avatar Comment 30 by chris 116

I respect the NSS for their efforts on real issues such as the Lords Spiritual and Government funding for faith-based schools, but taking this nonsense to the High Court is just plain daft.

Children's malleable minds being exposed to religion worries me greatly. But atheist councillors are adults and I simply don't understand their problem with a prayer. Nobody is forcing them to join in: they could read the paper, send a text message, or better still, just watch and enjoy the silly spectacle.

The atheist councillor claimed to be embarrassed. That's like being embarrassed by Morris dancers: they are the ones who look ridiculous, not the bemused spectators.

Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:35:49 UTC | #896677