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← Calls to Behead Indonesian Atheist Alexander Aan

Calls to Behead Indonesian Atheist Alexander Aan - Comments

helena!'s Avatar Comment 1 by helena!

Why does religion make people so insane and violent. I just really don't get it.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:14:23 UTC | #915337

Richard Dawkins's Avatar Comment 2 by Richard Dawkins

Muslim extremists have called for Aan to be beheaded but fellow atheists have rallied round, and urged him to stand by his convictions despite the pressure.

For one sadly short moment I thought the 'but' was going to be followed by 'moderate Muslims have rallied round . . ."

Once again, where are the decent, moderate Muslims? Why do they not stand up in outrage against their co-religionists? Maybe Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right and "moderate Muslim" is something close to an oxymoron.

How can they not see that, if you need to kill to protect your faith, that is a powerful indication that you have lost the argument? It is impossible to exaggerate how deeply I despise them.

Richard

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:17:58 UTC | #915341

Sean_W's Avatar Comment 3 by Sean_W

Signed-

Helana! Me either, but I'd guess some are deeply embarrassed in the presence of free thinkers.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:19:41 UTC | #915343

aroundtown's Avatar Comment 4 by aroundtown

“These atheists should be beheaded, that’s what they deserve,” wrote a man who identified himself as Putra Tama, a Muslim from neighboring Jambi province.

Muslim's proclaim themselves to be peaceful follower's of the teachings of the Koran. I guess Mr. Tama missed those classes of instruction wouldn't you think. Their actions never match the retoric they espouse.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:21:27 UTC | #915345

Stevezar's Avatar Comment 5 by Stevezar

“If you think your arguments are true, why don’t you just have a face-to-face meeting with us, people who still believe in God? You’re just a group of cowards,” taunted a post by another Muslim."

Yeah, right.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:24:51 UTC | #915346

permafrost's Avatar Comment 6 by permafrost

“If you think your arguments are true, why don’t you just have a face-to-face meeting with us, people who still believe in God? You’re just a group of cowards”

Well, in other circumstances, this would be a joke. You, atheist, are a coward because you don't show yourself there where we, God loving people, can comfortably lynch and kill you (an action usually carried out by a cowardly mob). Indonesia must be such a nice place to live if you are brain dead.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:26:51 UTC | #915347

ZenDruid's Avatar Comment 7 by ZenDruid

The moderate and peaceful Muslims have been terrorized into submission by the jihadis.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:27:35 UTC | #915349

Metamag's Avatar Comment 8 by Metamag

“If you think your arguments are true, why don’t you just have a face-to-face meeting with us, people who still believe in God? You’re just a group of cowards,” taunted a post by another Muslim.

Oh, this just left me with a sickening feeling in my stomach. It takes so much work to elevate human animal to semi-rational logical state but religion destroys it all.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:31:18 UTC | #915351

zengardener's Avatar Comment 9 by zengardener

This country receives billions of dollars in aid. Quite a bit is from Australia. Isn't there some way to leverage some decency into their laws?

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:39:52 UTC | #915353

Metamag's Avatar Comment 10 by Metamag

Comment 2 by Richard Dawkins :

Muslim extremists have called for Aan to be beheaded but fellow atheists have rallied round, and urged him to stand by his convictions despite the pressure.

For one sadly short moment I thought the 'but' was going to be followed by 'moderate Muslims have rallied round . . ."

Once again, where are the decent, moderate Muslims?

There really ought to be a website made that collates all these cases showing exactly how there is no such thing as moderate Muslims in Muslim-majority countries and how occasional minority-Muslims in western countries just do lip service and how in most cases even minority-Muslims behave like untamed human animals when push comes to shove.

There is simply no theological/traditional basis for Muslims to be moderate and when certain population threshold is exceeded in a community true face of islamic death cult is revealed. Not to mention direct external institutional organizational pressure and influence of Islamic countries on such communities.

P.S. Bill Maher did a really good piece on this moderate Muslims nonsense but I can't find it, if anyone can remember which episode was it...

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:44:11 UTC | #915354

aroundtown's Avatar Comment 11 by aroundtown

Comment 7 by ZenDruid The moderate and peaceful Muslims have been terrorized into submission by the jihadis.

Religion is the instigator of intolerance for moderates and extremists alike. The prism they have to view everything through is clouded by the religious dogma that chains them and their subsequent ideas and actions are affected in the end. I agree that there are voices from Muslims against extremism but it is so easy for them to get side tracked because it is like a dog chasing its tail in that they have to square it with religion and that is where the wheel falls of the wagon so to speak. I would agree with you ZenDruid that there are moderates but I would like to see them become luke warm religionist and ultimately rejectors of religion so they might breath the free air.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:45:10 UTC | #915355

danconquer's Avatar Comment 12 by danconquer

I hope that Alexander is granted asylum in the EU, should he deem it necessary and desire it. There would appear to be prima facie grounds for immediately granting it.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:45:19 UTC | #915356

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 13 by Premiseless

If this is NOT representative of Muslim belief, then why aren't the FATWA reps declaring outrage at this motion?

Surely, if this motion is IMPERSONATING the wishes of Allah it amounts to blasphemy, incognito?

But maybe this is their two pronged sidestepping strategy? "We have extremist groups for our agenda whom we mobilise but deny allegiance with as part of our covert operations whenever insurgents of reason threaten our power!"

In short, simply the old taste for blood coming to the surface in response to reason? Reason is too good therefore we erase your argument!

You make sense, me bully. Bully win! (a very old, well evolved abuse of power to maintain power, still used at ALL levels of societies worldwide)

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:48:12 UTC | #915359

Sean_W's Avatar Comment 14 by Sean_W

Comment 7 by ZenDruid :

The moderate and peaceful Muslims have been terrorized into submission by the jihadis.

Well I believe a peaceful Muslim used to be just someone that had already surrendered and was now living comfortably in the interior, far from the front. I wonder if these "modern" incidents are indicative of how Islam has always kept the peace within.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:50:43 UTC | #915360

glenister_m's Avatar Comment 15 by glenister_m

Ridiculous.

However it appears we have moderate Muslim's in Canada, in this case responding to recent "honor killings" in Kingston, Ontario:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadas-muslim-clerics-band-together-denounce-called-honour-195116194.html

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:57:24 UTC | #915363

Metamag's Avatar Comment 16 by Metamag

Comment 12 by danconquer :

I hope that Alexander is granted asylum in the EU

Doesn't EU have a track record of putting political correctness and multiculturalism ahead of human rights, especially with these types of cases?

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:58:25 UTC | #915364

Harps's Avatar Comment 17 by Harps

Donated $30 to his fund, let's hope whatever we can scrape together helps keep this brave mans head on his shoulders.

Is there any shame in pretending to convert if it would save one's life? (It seems it wouldn't in Alexander's case but I just wanted to know what people here thought)

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:01:04 UTC | #915365

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 18 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:02:34 UTC | #915367

Metamag's Avatar Comment 19 by Metamag

Comment 15 by glenister_m :

Ridiculous.

However it appears we have moderate Muslim's in Canada, in this case responding to recent "honor killings" in Kingston, Ontario:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadas-muslim-clerics-band-together-denounce-called-honour-195116194.html

What exactly does that mean, where is the threshold for considering someone to be a moderate, not killing people but just subjugating women? Being aggressively anti-science but not killing scientists? And what happens when a community has a majority of Muslims? Where is the external pressure to condemn then?

Do you really think any sane person should accept such threshold?

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:02:43 UTC | #915368

ukvillafan's Avatar Comment 20 by ukvillafan

Where is the leadership of the rest of the world when any of these nations permit this. Just boycott the whole bloody lot of 'em ....

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:04:46 UTC | #915369

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 21 by Ignorant Amos

Did anyone check the source?

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:08:32 UTC | #915371

Jumped Up Chimpanzee's Avatar Comment 22 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee

Comment 2 by Richard Dawkins

Once again, where are the decent, moderate Muslims? Why do they not stand up in outrage against their co-religionists? Maybe Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right and "moderate Muslim" is something close to an oxymoron.

I have a suggestion that I realise may sound a bit simplistic, but I honestly think it would have a big and very positive impact.

In order to completely disassociate themselves from the extremists, I've challenged self-proclaimed "moderate" Muslims on various forums just to attach a different label to their belief (i.e. to continue to believe in their god, etc, but just call themselves something other than "Muslims"). It could be done overnight at no cost or inconvenience whatsoever. I'm certain it would have a profound effect on isolating the extremists, who would be left with the old label. The problem at the moment is that the extremists and moderates identify themselves by the same label. It allows the extremists to use the moderates as a buffer, because every time the extremists are criticised, moderates throw a tantrum and claim that all Muslims are being wrongly persecuted. It's such an absurd situation that different groups who supposedly believe in radically different ideas label themselves with the same word and this simple factor makes it incredibly difficult to solve a very serious problem in the world.

Not a single Muslim on the forums where I've raised this suggestion has been willing to consider it. "Why should we change our name - why not the extremists?" is the usual childish response. Obviously they'd much prefer the current worldwide atrocities to continue rather than do something that requires no real effort whatsoever to help solve these major problems. Which makes me inclined to agree "moderate Muslim" is indeed an oxymoron.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:09:07 UTC | #915372

AnthropicConstance's Avatar Comment 23 by AnthropicConstance

where is the threshold for considering someone to be a moderate,

Inside this threshold is tolerance for others simply to hold their own opinion, where beyond it is the One True Faith: Destroy the natural tendency to live & let live, substitute oneself as the Almighty, the better to indulge one's own bloodthirsty power.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:22:34 UTC | #915376

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 24 by aquilacane

A defiant declaration.

Rational defiance of delusional offensiveness. Is there any greater cause.

Oh,

“God doesn’t exist.”

However, is not a rational thing to say. "There is no evidence in support for the existence of God." might have been a better quote to throw down.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:25:41 UTC | #915378

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 25 by Ignorant Amos

From a few weeks ago......

Indonesia must protect Shi’a villagers from further attacks

"There ...are serious questions about the willingness of the police to protect these people from more sectarian attacks."

Oh the irony, it stings.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:30:25 UTC | #915379

aquilacane's Avatar Comment 26 by aquilacane

Answer to Richard.

A moderate Muslim is one who believes you should die but is too chicken-shit spineless and without the adequate capacity for self determination to actually go out and kill you themselves.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:31:17 UTC | #915380

Anonymous's Avatar Comment 27 by Anonymous

Comment Removed by Moderator

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:37:05 UTC | #915382

Steve Zara's Avatar Comment 28 by Steve Zara

Comment 2 by Richard Dawkins

Once again, where are the decent, moderate Muslims? Why do they not stand up in outrage against their co-religionists? Maybe Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right and "moderate Muslim" is something close to an oxymoron.

It's wrong to say there aren't moderate Muslims. There is one who posts here, Richard, his name is Tanweer, and if you look over his posting history you can see what a major problem for such groups and such people is. Moderate groups who aim for visibility can and do get threatened.

comment 253 by Tanweer

As a Muslim, therefore, I renounce any sort of punishment for apostasy and I will work with my community to try and raise the profile of this renunciation as best as I can.

comment 36 by Tanweer

First of all, as an Ahmadi Muslim, may I take this opportunity to openly and wholeheartedly condemn this utterly hideous and unacceptable act. The only good thing is that no one else apart from the perpetrator was harmed. I sincerely hope and pray nothing else like this occurs in Sweden, or indeed anywhere else for that matter. What Vilks did (cartoon) may upset Muslims like myself, but it can in absolutely no way justify violence of any kind. The people who carry out violent acts are responsible for their acts. The cartoonist is responsible only for the cartoon. However bad the cartoon might be, trying to blow people up is infinitely worse.

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/560557-hate-campaign-against-peaceful-community-in-uk

It's damaging to the good work and, indeed, bravery of such people to suggest they don't exist. We should work to make things easier for such moderates, even as we ferociously debate with them about their faith, and stand with them when they are under threat, not condemn them for cowardice.

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:38:11 UTC | #915384

danconquer's Avatar Comment 29 by danconquer

I must say, without wishing to sound paranoid, it does seem just a tinsy bit odd that someone who, according to their profile, joined this website only 40 minutes ago is somehow able to demonstrate a sufficiently encyclopedic knowledge of other user's contributions as to launch such criticisms of other users, and as their first contribution.

Anyone have a theory on this?

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:40:27 UTC | #915386

susanlatimer's Avatar Comment 30 by susanlatimer

Comment 29 by danconquer

Anyone have a theory on this?

Hmmm... (rubs chin, scratches head)

Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:45:54 UTC | #915388