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← FFRF ad, ‘Quit the Catholic Church,’ runs in today’s Times

FFRF ad, ‘Quit the Catholic Church,’ runs in today’s Times - Comments

BowDownToGizmo's Avatar Comment 1 by BowDownToGizmo

Brilliant, more of this please

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:12:20 UTC | #925681

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 2 by strangebrew

A risky strategy on one hand...just awaiting the backlash from the red faced and righteous blowing hard clutching pearls and gonads in equal hysterics and haranguing the media for every angle possible to get back at the 'intolerance'.

On the other hand a bold and brave action and it might just awaken the erstwhile flock members who really do feel deep disgust and loathing not just over the petty and vindictive issue of women's rights but over the AIDS dereliction of duty in Africa and the kiddy fiddlers still being protected by Benny baby and his cohorts!

A few more letters published in national newspapers around the world would be an excellent idea...it is just finding the media outlet with enough integrity and fearlessness to accommodate the move.

Given the track record of the majority..not holding the breath would be a good move there!

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:19:19 UTC | #925683

Agrajag's Avatar Comment 3 by Agrajag

Ooooh... that's STRIDENT!
Steve

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:20:44 UTC | #925684

Quine's Avatar Comment 4 by Quine

It will be interesting to watch the reaction. Some will argue that FFRF has gone over the line, but it must be kept in mind that the policies of the RCC are being pushed upon both their own sheeple and workers who are not Catholic, but who happen to be employed by an institution run by the RCC.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:26:14 UTC | #925686

Sample's Avatar Comment 5 by Sample

The invitation to liberal and nominal Catholics is excellent. It's a shot across the bow to all those in power who trumpet the Church is neither liberal nor conservative but rather a Holy Spirit guided social doctrine.

Three cheers to the NYT.

Mike

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:29:50 UTC | #925689

TeraBrat's Avatar Comment 6 by TeraBrat

We are talking about people who are still in the Catholic Church despite all the child molestation scandals. If that didn't get them to leave the Church I doubt this will.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:30:35 UTC | #925690

prettygoodformonkeys's Avatar Comment 7 by prettygoodformonkeys

Definitely strident. Mmmm, yummy.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 19:54:12 UTC | #925693

Rawhard Dickins's Avatar Comment 8 by Rawhard Dickins

Wow! We really are getting militant! But here's an interesting point: If religion decreases there could well be an increase in crime from those who would otherwise fear an omniscient god and the prospect of hell. (Not that this should be a reason to sway from the task of pointing out the folly of bronze age mentality).

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:30:58 UTC | #925704

rod-the-farmer's Avatar Comment 9 by rod-the-farmer

Perhaps it should be attached to the front doors of churches. No nails or staples, that would be 'damaging'. A small dab of silicone caulking would do, I think.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:31:26 UTC | #925705

Mr DArcy's Avatar Comment 10 by Mr DArcy

If only I could walk away in disgust!

Fortunately for me, I was never a Catholic, nor religious in anyway.

How people put up with Catholic bully bhoy tactics, probably has an answer lying somewhere back in childhood.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 20:38:51 UTC | #925708

JHJEFFERY's Avatar Comment 11 by JHJEFFERY

Bill "Mad Dog" Donahue of the Catholic League is already on the job with his normal state of lunatic rantings:

http://www.catholicleague.org/frontal-assault-on-catholicism/

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:07:35 UTC | #925713

Mrkimbo's Avatar Comment 12 by Mrkimbo

Strident, uncompromising and in their face - absolutely brilliant.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 21:17:22 UTC | #925714

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 13 by Red Dog

Comment 8 by Rawhard Dickins :

Wow! We really are getting militant! But here's an interesting point: If religion decreases there could well be an increase in crime from those who would otherwise fear an omniscient god and the prospect of hell. (Not that this should be a reason to sway from the task of pointing out the folly of bronze age mentality).

I think that would happen so infrequently as to be negligible. Humans are amazing rationalization and denial machines. We can hold contradictory beliefs very easily. The evidence I've seen tends to support that as well. From what I recall most studies show that the more religious people are at least in the US the more rather than less ethical they are.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 22:08:44 UTC | #925720

Aztek's Avatar Comment 14 by Aztek

It'll be interesting to see what this leads to, and by that I mean the response from the RCC. The thing is that the church has the money to fund a similar add 100 times bigger, so they can essentially afford to respond in any way they want. That's why it'll be interesting to see what road they'll take. If they use the response to whip up a "recruitment" ad to convince their members to stay, it might diminish the impact of the FFRF's ad. But if the RCC wastes its breath on a vicious slander campaign (as they usually do), with accusations of Catholics being persecuted, it'll only benefit the FFRF.

And I'm interested in whether more similar letters will be published. While targeting a specific organization is more effective than publishing a letter generally to all believers, I would like there to be similar letters for other religious people too. Many of the topics in this letter apply to other denominations and religions.

EDIT: Could someone please explain that "After Life" membership due for the FFRF? I understand if it's a joke, but if I actually pay it do I get something extra? Because if it's just a joke that the FFRF is cashing in on, I'm a little disappointed.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 22:19:29 UTC | #925722

dloubet's Avatar Comment 15 by dloubet

I don't think the numbers support your contention, Dickins. It seems the crime rate goes down and societal health increases as the country becomes more secular.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 22:20:22 UTC | #925723

Aka Popag's Avatar Comment 16 by Aka Popag

Dloubet, sure you are right but do you have any evidence? Is there a properly secular country? Love to move there one day, God willing

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 22:41:59 UTC | #925733

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 17 by drumdaddy

Quit the catholic church? Been there, done that. (Gave up eating body and drinking blood for lent)

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:18:56 UTC | #925737

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 18 by strangebrew

Comment 13 by Red Dog

From what I recall most studies show that the more religious people are at least in the US the more rather than less ethical they are

Got any empirical there to back that up? Otherwise tis a crock of dingo droppings and very little else... The more religious the state the higher the crime rate...divorce and murder rate let alone abortion... iegal and otherwise.

A recent study concludes

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:20:05 UTC | #925739

wolfhoundGrowl's Avatar Comment 19 by wolfhoundGrowl

that's a cracker ... really good (but I don't think they should have put the DD sign-up thing on the bottom, makes the whole thing look like it has an alterior motive)

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:21:32 UTC | #925741

Peter Clemerson's Avatar Comment 20 by Peter Clemerson

To Rawhard Dickens (comment 8), dloubet (comment 15) and Aka Popag (comment 16)

All the evidence anyone could wish for has been supplied by Gregory Paul (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07398441_c.pdf) and Phil Zuckerman's Society without God: What the least religious nations can tell us about contentment.

Peter Clemerson

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:26:34 UTC | #925743

Metamag's Avatar Comment 21 by Metamag

Comment 4 by Quine :

Some will argue that FFRF has gone over the line,

Since it was demonstrated many times that simple reminder of atheists existing is "over the line" we should completely ignore such concerns.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:35:43 UTC | #925745

btheist's Avatar Comment 22 by btheist

Well Done FFRF! There is no such thing as being too strident. I hope it does produce a backlash as that will drive the message out further and it will also show those who do speak out against it for what they really are.

Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:58:47 UTC | #925750

Bobwundaye's Avatar Comment 23 by Bobwundaye

I'm sure people will leave because of this,but by and large I think the ad misses the mark.

In general, people don't leave the church because of certain doctrines unless they leave to establish their own church which is hardly what the FFRF is intending here. It's long been an open secret that what the church preaches and what the congregation believes are often two very different things. Also, believers tend to interpret the churches actions in the kindest light giving them the benefit of the doubt, often and without realizing it, applying a sort of evolutionary idea to the church - that it is a struggle towards truth and that eventually it will get there.

I am surprised at the simplistic view many atheists have of the religious and religious structures and how it displays a deep-rooted bigotry against the religious.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:19:14 UTC | #925756

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 24 by Alan4discussion

Comment 16 by Aka Popag

Dloubet, sure you are right but do you have any evidence? Is there a properly secular country? Love to move there one day, God willing

You could have a look at this slightly out of date list: -

http://evolutionspace.wordpress.com/2007/05/03/worldwide-atheism-trend-and-pattern-a-summary/ - Firstly it outlines the difficulties in conducting a survey on the beliefs and disbeliefs of large populations. Then it provides a good statistics on the atheism population in many countries. Then, most importantly, the Top 50 list of non-believing countries is presented, which I will duplicate here (I have stripped out the population columns due to space limits):

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:45:13 UTC | #925758

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 25 by drumdaddy

The only thing strident about this is the bishop. Hey, boys and girls, if they can recruit ours then we can recruit theirs.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 01:15:11 UTC | #925762

reckoner's Avatar Comment 26 by reckoner

Comment 23 by Spiritual Atheist :

I'm sure people will leave because of this,but by and large I think the ad misses the mark.

In general, people don't leave the church because of certain doctrines unless they leave to establish their own church which is hardly what the FFRF is intending here. It's long been an open secret that what the church preaches and what the congregation believes are often two very different things. Also, believers tend to interpret the churches actions in the kindest light giving them the benefit of the doubt, often and without realizing it, applying a sort of evolutionary idea to the church - that it is a struggle towards truth and that eventually it will get there.

I am surprised at the simplistic view many atheists have of the religious and religious structures and how it displays a deep-rooted bigotry against the religious.

I agree that the congregation typically strays from the RCC preachings, but that's the point here.

It's clear there is no magic bullet that will cause believers to leave their church. But, I think this ad is one of the better approaches. When atheists simply launch a general "god doesn't exist" ad, I think a lot of people's instant reaction is "oh god, another 'religious' debate..."

This ad succeeds in exploiting a standpoint which RCC congregates don't identify with to show just how out of step the RCC is with their real life beliefs and actions. Even more, it takes advantage of a highly visible and current social topic to drive a wedge between RCC subscribers and the RCC. Seems like the best way to hit home is to use real life examples to show people that their church's beliefs do not align with their own. I'd love to see more of this!

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 01:28:20 UTC | #925765

Starcrash's Avatar Comment 27 by Starcrash

Comment 23 by Spiritual Atheist :

In general, people don't leave the church because of certain doctrines unless they leave to establish I am surprised at the simplistic view many atheists have of the religious and religious structures and how it displays a deep-rooted bigotry against the religious.

What does it take to change the mind of a believer? That's the million-dollar question.

Like therapy, a person really has to come to their own conclusions to accept them... but it doesn't mean they can't be led there by a therapist or some other source of insight. It also helps to see the real target here --- the youth that haven't really made up their minds. I gave up Christianity at 19, and I think it's pretty common for people to change their minds around this age while in college or in the military. It's also the age that women commonly pick up birth control.

The church isn't making friends by attacking contraception; it's a losing issue, because the statistics show that a majority of Catholic women have used birth control. I think it's a good time to present an alternative, and I think it will be effective. But even if this view is 'simplistic', it is not cynical.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:03:34 UTC | #925776

Sean_W's Avatar Comment 28 by Sean_W

Comment 11 by JHJEFFERY

I bet you can't have a conversation with that man that doesn't eventually lead him to believe that you've uncovered yet another plot to embarrass him.

----//----

Tough letter, I hope someone takes it to heart. I read that many people have left the Church over the abuses. That was good reading. It seems like in my immediate circle nobody has. (Roman Catholic family, except for mom, she left'em when they wouldn't baptize me -thanks mom.)

----//----

Spiritual Atheist,

I am surprised at the simplistic view many atheists have of the religious and religious structures and how it displays a deep-rooted bigotry against the religious.

Can you elaborate a bit on that? What views in particular do you find simplistic?

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:37:28 UTC | #925783

IDLERACER's Avatar Comment 29 by IDLERACER

Quit the Catholic church over it's "War Against Contraception?" This reminds me of director Paul Haggis' lengthy article in the New Yorker about how he quit the church of Scientology because he disagreed with their views on gay marriage. As if there weren't at least a thousand considerably more serious reasons to get out of these organizations.

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:41:16 UTC | #925784

prettygoodformonkeys's Avatar Comment 30 by prettygoodformonkeys

Comment 23 by Spiritual Atheist

I am surprised at the simplistic view many atheists have of the religious and religious structures and how it displays a deep-rooted bigotry against the religious.

I have the same question as Sean_W, with the addition of: what is your definition of bigotry, and how does it apply here?

Sat, 10 Mar 2012 04:20:35 UTC | #925788