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← Who would rally against reason? [Also in Polish]

Who would rally against reason? [Also in Polish] - Comments

Ben_Keyes_780's Avatar Comment 1 by Ben_Keyes_780

Although I shan't rally against reason, I will not be able to rally for it either. As a poor Canadian student, I'll have to sit it out, so all of those who may attend: represent and know that many rational people salute you. Also, the reason rally will be posted on youtube, won't it?

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:12:36 UTC | #929352

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 2 by Stafford Gordon

Comment Removed by Author

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:38:06 UTC | #929360

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 3 by Neodarwinian

Sorry, I am going to the Mayor's Dog Ball on that date. The premier charity event of the Albuquerque social season, at least to we dog lovers.

But I still shall rally around reason every chance I get and will defy theocratic attempts to silence reason anywhere and any place I am. I will not see the end of secular and religious creationism in my lifetime, but the journey is the thing here and others live after us.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:39:10 UTC | #929363

aroundtown's Avatar Comment 4 by aroundtown

Loved the article and the comments afterward were something to behold. Simply amazing that the religious are literally stuck in first gear and cannot move any further. For me personally I believe the reason they would rally against "reason" is the simple fact that "reason" is anathema to their religious principals and beliefs and "reason" challenges religious propositions to the core of their existence. Very uncomfortable for them I would imagine. I do hope it gets a little more uncomfortable every day as we move into the future of 2012 and beyond with vigorous examination that will truly educate mankind.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:52:37 UTC | #929366

Schrodinger's Cat's Avatar Comment 5 by Schrodinger's Cat

Thanks to evidence-based reason we are blessedly liberated from ancient fears of ghosts and devils, evil spirits and djinns, magic spells and witches’ curses.

True...but those things are the superfluous baggage in a more encompassing battle between reason and the real culprit....teleology. People hang on to their elves, fairies, ghosts, djinns, etc not so much because they make sense in themselves, but because they come as part of a package labelled 'meaning in life'. Attack those things and the person will defend them, not so much because they are in any way evidently true, but because they are a protective shield of nonsense within which a person can feel ther life has some 'meaning'. Thus the cure seems to me to be not just to attack unreason, but to show how science can also provide a meaning context to life.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:55:03 UTC | #929370

Stafford Gordon's Avatar Comment 6 by Stafford Gordon

In comment 2, I meant the verb "sight" not the noun "site". I repeadedly tried to correct/edit it, and finally tried to delete the comment altogether; neither worked, hence this apology.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:55:05 UTC | #929371

Southern Humanist's Avatar Comment 7 by Southern Humanist

Great piece - I couldn't resist adding my $.02 in the comments section on the Post's site. Wish I could be in D.C. for the event!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:55:52 UTC | #929372

jameshogg's Avatar Comment 8 by jameshogg

Faith is, by definition, believing in anything as long as it is not a fact.

It ought to make us terrified that putting it as plainly as this does little to sway some opinions. "I'd rather not believe in facts, thanks. This is the best way to live my life."

We as humans think too highly of ourselves.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:06:21 UTC | #929375

chawinwords's Avatar Comment 9 by chawinwords

"What other than this mentality accounts for the popularity of Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Rick Santorum--politicians who flaunt their ignorance as a vote-winning virtue?"

Why then is such people determined to stay away from a Reason Ralley? The answer can be found in this doctored quote: The determined stupid remain as the determined stupid do (and believe without evidence)!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:26:56 UTC | #929386

DefenderOfReason!'s Avatar Comment 10 by DefenderOfReason!

From the comments section at the Washington Post:

"If you're so confident in your "reasons," Mr. Dawkins, why do you continually refuse to debate well-known Christian apologists such as Dr. William Lane Craig and Dr. Edward Fazer? To my knowledge, both have a standing invitation to you, yet you continually shy away. Why?
There are intellectual, verifiable reasons to believe in God, Mr. Dawkins, yet you refuse to engage in a real debate. Seems to me someone's afraid of being wrong. "

THIS is why we need a Reason Rally!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:38:07 UTC | #929390

PrayForMe's Avatar Comment 11 by PrayForMe

@ Stafford Gordon

I'm an English teacher so I can't let this go: 'sight' is a noun, not a verb.

Sorry. If it helps; I lurk here often and enjoy your posts.

Matt

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:41:51 UTC | #929392

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 12 by drumdaddy

Hitch may throw down a few thunderbolts this weekend, just to be heard. He laughs at umbrellas.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:10:21 UTC | #929399

Mr DArcy's Avatar Comment 13 by Mr DArcy

If the American people can at least start to jetison their religious mumbo jumbo, then there appears a little chink of light that may illuminate the path forwards.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:11:33 UTC | #929400

TeraBrat's Avatar Comment 14 by TeraBrat

I'm stuck taking a humanities class this semester (last class I need to take for this degree). My professor doesn't want me coming to class because I use science to back up my arguments and according to him it stymies the discussion because no one can refute it.I'd be happy to debate my scientific reasoning for what I'm saying but no one else in class seems to understand what I'm saying including the professor

BTW, he claims to be an Atheist.But he still thinks that things have merit if they evoke emotions even though they are illogical. I'm astounded that I'm being told that I'm not allowed to use science in a university graduate class.

I was able to stay out of huanities classes in my undergrad by taking studio art. The degree I'm wirking on ow is multidisciplinary and I have to take one. My opinion of humanities is even lower than it was in the past and I didn't think that was possible.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:18:22 UTC | #929401

Rawhard Dickins's Avatar Comment 15 by Rawhard Dickins

I prefer not to use the word science, it has acquired a bad name of late. I substitute it with "knowledge"

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:46:52 UTC | #929409

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 16 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 11 by PrayForMe

@ Stafford Gordon

I'm an English teacher so I can't let this go: 'sight' is a noun, not a verb.

Well then, as an English teacher, you should know that 'sight' can also be a verb.

It's what I used to do to a target before pulling the trigger of my rifle.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:54:44 UTC | #929412

mmartini52's Avatar Comment 17 by mmartini52

Go git' im, Amos! Hehehe...

Great read by the Prof, btw. Great read. But some of the comments after...sheesh, some yanks really do need a bit of educashun. If you go on Huffpost UK, as I do, and the thread gets invaded by rednecks (usually 'cos you're talking about homosexuality - seems to attract 'em), the debate goes downhill faster than a giraffe on skis.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:14:58 UTC | #929417

ConnedCatholic's Avatar Comment 18 by ConnedCatholic

Comment 15 by Rawhard Dickins - What on earth is wrong with the word "science"? I read the other day somewhere that it only became an english word sometime in the middle of the 19th century. I think that it is a great word. We are in real trouble if we have to subsitute it because of political correctedness.

While on terminology - I am starting a movement to use "modern" instead of "western" when discussing matters to do with civilised and progessive versus backwardness. I think that the word "west" inserts a barrier that cannot be surrmounted. Modern is a condition that most people could be persuaded to aspire towards.

This is an incredibly important event. I do so hope that it goes well.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:21:09 UTC | #929419

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 19 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 18 by ConnedCatholic

Comment 15 by Rawhard Dickins - What on earth is wrong with the word "science"? I read the other day somewhere that it only became an english word sometime in the middle of the 19th century. I think that it is a great word. We are in real trouble if we have to subsitute it because of political correctedness.

I'm guilty of that comment I'm afraid and it was reference the word 'scientist.' People who involved themselves in the sciences were known by subject specific description. Natural philosopher for example.

Forms of science historically developed out of philosophy or, more specifically, natural philosophy. At older universities, long-established Chairs of Natural Philosophy are nowadays occupied mainly by physics professors. Modern notions of science and scientists date only to the 19th century (the Oxford English Dictionary dates the origin of the word "scientist" to 1834). Before then, the word "science" simply meant knowledge and the label of scientist did not exist. Some examples of the term's usage Isaac Newton's 1687 scientific treatise is known as The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy and Lord Kelvin and Peter Guthrie Tait's 1867 treatise that helped define much of modern physics Treatise on Natural Philosophy.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 21:47:46 UTC | #929430

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 20 by Red Dog

Comment 14 by TeraBrat :

I'm stuck taking a humanities class this semester (last class I need to take for this degree). My professor doesn't want me coming to class because I use science to back up my arguments and according to him it stymies the discussion because no one can refute it.I'd be happy to debate my scientific reasoning for what I'm saying but no one else in class seems to understand what I'm saying including the professor

Can you give an example of how you use science in your humanities class?

I'm also rather surprised when you say "stuck" taking a humanities class. My degrees are in math and engineering but I always thought of the required humanities classes as a fun easy A. You mean in the entire universe of art, music, literature, mythology, etc. you couldn't find one class that peaked your interest?

BTW, he claims to be an Atheist.But he still thinks that things have merit if they evoke emotions even though they are illogical. I'm astounded that I'm being told that I'm not allowed to use science in a university graduate class.

Well I'm an atheist and I agree with him. Beethoven, Tolstoy, and Davinci's works of art aren't all that logical. Well its true that there is an underlying logic in many ways but what makes them work is how they resonate at an emotional level and I think they have lots of merit. Actually even Richard Dawkins is on record as saying that the King James version of the bible, you couldn't pick something more illogical, has a lot of merit for its beauty of language and ideas.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:00:30 UTC | #929455

rationalmind's Avatar Comment 21 by rationalmind

Comment 15 by Rawhard Dickins :

I prefer not to use the word science, it has acquired a bad name of late. I substitute it with "knowledge"

The origin of the English word science is a Latin word Scientia. Guess what it means? Knowledge!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:03:57 UTC | #929456

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 22 by xmaseveeve

Superb OP.

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:16:35 UTC | #929460

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 23 by Alan4discussion

@10 - From the comments section at the Washington Post:

"If you're so confident in your "reasons," Mr. Dawkins, why do you continually refuse to debate well-known Christian apologists such as Dr. William Lane Craig and Dr. Edward Fazer? To my knowledge, both have a standing invitation to you, yet you continually shy away. Why? There are intellectual, verifiable reasons to believe in God, Mr. Dawkins,

.. As any competent psychologist can tell you! - Hint - Indoctrination is often a key feature! Irrational deluded role models also feature!

.. ..yet you refuse to engage in a real debate. Seems to me someone's afraid of being wrong. "

There is no point in reasoning, debating and being "right" in front of a bigoted irrational audience, which is too ignorant to know it is ignorant, and too incompetent to recognise dishonest debate.

THIS is why we need a Reason Rally!

Especially in the US it seems!

Wed, 21 Mar 2012 23:38:15 UTC | #929463

AgriculturalAtheist's Avatar Comment 24 by AgriculturalAtheist

I think the complaint of "elitism" is that most people feel as if somehow those in power may try to pull a fast one on the dumb public, and they won't even know it. Akin to countries where the citizens (or portions of its citizenry) were banned from reading books or learning - the knowledge becomes concentrated in the "elite" in power - and since power corrupts...

It USED to be that only a few in the electoral college voted for presidents. While ordinary citizens don't directly vote for a president, they DO vote for their representatives, and indirectly have an effect on how many electoral votes a candidate might get in their state. So yes, originally the founding fathers did not imagine EVERYONE would vote (especially children, women and slaves). But over the years the notion of a democracy spread so anyone 18 and over could vote. Though we might like to revert to a system where only the most intelligent made decisions for the whole country, does anyone see why this might be a problem, or backfire?

The truth is for a true democracy we have to preserve that freedom and voice, no matter how vulgar or dumb. One can't require voters OR candidates to pass an IQ test or pledge an allegiance to reason and shun all faith.

One does need to have advanced training and degrees to become a medical doctor, but there is no analogous "school" for becoming a president. One shouldn't need a doctorate to do this. The experience of small-town politics can serve as experience for the process of democracy and the law, and lead to higher offices. If someone is so dumb or useless one imagines the voting process will weed out the candidate as sure as a hiring committee would an interviewing would-be employee. If the majority wants a "dumb" and religious person in office, then who is the minority to object?

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 00:16:36 UTC | #929470

PrayForMe's Avatar Comment 25 by PrayForMe

Well then, as an English teacher, you should know that 'sight' can also be a verb.

You had to cite an example which would prove me wrong, didn't you?

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 00:20:27 UTC | #929472

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 26 by Red Dog

Comment 25 by PrayForMe :

Well then, as an English teacher, you should know that 'sight' can also be a verb.

You had to cite an example which would prove me wrong, didn't you?

verb (used without object)

  1. to aim or observe through a sight.

  2. to look carefully in a certain direction.

From dictionary.com definition of sight

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 00:34:01 UTC | #929478

Rawhard Dickins's Avatar Comment 27 by Rawhard Dickins

Re: Comment 18 by ConnedCatholic etc

It's harder for folk to argue against you if you talk about "knowledge" (which is what we often mean, and can be used to cover a wider field), science is sadly seen as tainted by many.

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 01:47:04 UTC | #929487

PrayForMe's Avatar Comment 28 by PrayForMe

@Red Dog

OK, I get it.

I apologise for my misplaced pedantry.

Matt

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 02:52:43 UTC | #929502

drumdaddy's Avatar Comment 29 by drumdaddy

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 03:59:15 UTC | #929512

ballsgoodman's Avatar Comment 30 by ballsgoodman

This is such an excellent discussion, and i think it should be i held n the public realm. I don't think many believers will change their mind, but at least u might reach those who've never heard any other side to the story and they'll have an opportunity to see the light. The counter arguments to reason seem so awful. I'm glad my father is a man of reason and i'm free of demons and spirits.

Thu, 22 Mar 2012 04:25:53 UTC | #929514