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Tennessee Goes Monkey Again - Comments

Blackaddera's Avatar Comment 1 by Blackaddera

one question aren't these laws in violation of the law seperating church and state?

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 22:53:08 UTC | #931759

caseyg5's Avatar Comment 2 by caseyg5

If there was ever a circumstance for open-faced public ridicule of religion, this is it. In 1925, Scopes was convicted locally under the Butler Act but the treatment by national pundits, the press and educators was so harsh about Tennessee's stupidity that while the law quietly remained for many years after, Scopes' conviction was quickly reversed, albeit on a technicality. The current bill in Tennessee is in many ways much worse as it encourages flagrant bigotry along with its intellectual offenses.

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 23:35:42 UTC | #931774

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 3 by xmaseveeve

Is there a petition I can sign?

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 23:48:52 UTC | #931779

arntfu's Avatar Comment 4 by arntfu

Wow... just reading this made my head hurt. Tennessee just poured itself a nice, big cup of dumb.

Sun, 01 Apr 2012 23:53:42 UTC | #931780

dudukike's Avatar Comment 5 by dudukike

How sad!

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 03:14:05 UTC | #931801

theresjustnoway's Avatar Comment 6 by theresjustnoway

As I was reading this I literally became queasy. It kills me to know that there are entire STATES breeding such ignorance, generation after generation. How can we ever move forward with so much money pushing us backwards?

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 04:34:07 UTC | #931815

Quine's Avatar Comment 7 by Quine

Re Comment 1 by Blackaddera:

Yes.

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 05:07:07 UTC | #931817

locka's Avatar Comment 8 by locka

It beggars belief that a state would so wilfully put itself at a disadvantage when it comes to education and learning.

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 13:17:04 UTC | #931894

caseyg5's Avatar Comment 9 by caseyg5

@Comment 8 by Locka, Once you convince yourself that God is on your side, you may do as you wish in violating federal law. Such laws are put up, knocked down, and put up again and again because the devoted are doing God's work battling Satan. To the masses in these states, colleges are controlled by the dirty secularists who must be destroyed at all costs. As I recall the story, the withering criticism heaped upon Tennessee in 1925 didn't sway the faithful, but it did the banks and businesses who stood to lose from the bad publicity. If the state realizes that their kids won't be accepted to college for being ill-prepared, that visitors won't come to spend money, that federal grant funding will be withheld for state projects, then they may do what eventually happened in Tennessee, leave the law on the books to placate the faithful but simply not enforce it.

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:06:12 UTC | #931907

stellier68's Avatar Comment 10 by stellier68

The intention of the new bill—introduced just one month after Jacob’s suicide – is to carve out an exemption for those bullies who can lay claim to a sincere religious motivation for their hatred.

Why not simply call this new legislation the Al-Qaeda Bill?

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:55:00 UTC | #931924

potteryshard's Avatar Comment 11 by potteryshard

The intention of the new bill—introduced just one month after Jacob’s suicide – is to carve out an exemption for those bullies who can lay claim to a sincere religious motivation for their hatred.

While this is deeply disappointing, I guess it is not particularly surprising. So much of religious proselytizing amounts to adult bullying. Legalizing child bullying for religious reasons appears to be a thoughtful and proactive step to ensure that another generation of religious bigots and bullies are adequately trained.

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 00:54:38 UTC | #932030

JimGravy76's Avatar Comment 12 by JimGravy76

@Comment 8 by Locka, Once you convince yourself that God is on your side, you may do as you wish in violating federal law. Such laws are put up, knocked down, and put up again and again because the devoted are doing God's work battling Satan. To the masses in these states, colleges are controlled by the dirty secularists who must be destroyed at all costs. As I recall the story, the withering criticism heaped upon Tennessee in 1925 didn't sway the faithful, but it did the banks and businesses who stood to lose from the bad publicity. If the state realizes that their kids won't be accepted to college for being ill-prepared, that visitors won't come to spend money, that federal grant funding will be withheld for state projects, then they may do what eventually happened in Tennessee, leave the law on the books to placate the faithful but simply not enforce it. Except this time it isn't just Tennessee, is it? The religious right in the form of the Republican party, F*x "News" and those tea party morons are trying to bully the entire country into accepting their ridiculous anti-intellectual fundamentalist agenda. What else is the constant obsession in the right-wing media with Mr. Obama's birthplace/religious affiliation? Republican strategists in the 80s were openly admitting that they considered education a privilege rather than a universal right, clearly they believe that keeping the mass of humanity ignorant is in the interests of the wealthy elite. The most stunning hypocrisy is that these guys don't even believe the crap they spout, they just want you to believe it absolutely, so you don't question whether they're actually governing in your interests or just protecting their own wealth and influence. Frankly, I despair as the secular movement can never offer the kind of comforting certainties peddled by the religious lobby. Ironically, the people obsessed with the "end of times" are the very ones who will probably end up fulfilling their own prophecy...

Tue, 03 Apr 2012 12:19:00 UTC | #932117

Starcrash's Avatar Comment 13 by Starcrash

The title of this article threw me off. Shouldn't that be "Tennessee Goes 'Apeshit' Again"?

These laws are against precedent. The Ten Commandments displayed in front of the Alabama Supreme Court was removed under federal law, not state law. The same is true about the Dixie County Courthouse controversy just a few years ago. No matter what bias these Tennessee judges hold, the first place they're supposed to look for an answer on this ruling is precedent to see how other courts have interpreted the same laws they're interpreting. It should also be noted that the origin of these monuments is pretty silly.

It has also been noted here that the Dover trial set the precedent for creationism. Again, this makes the ruling unjust.

We're supposed to be living in a system of "check and balances", and unfortunately the only check or balance on the judicial system is impeachment. How often does that happen? According to Wikipedia, it has happened 11 times in 100 years... and 2 of them were later acquitted. Surely judges act against their duty more often than that, but it would appear that we don't hold them accountable for it.

Wed, 04 Apr 2012 01:56:31 UTC | #932233

PERSON's Avatar Comment 14 by PERSON

The less the public knows, the more money ALEC sponsors make. Which may be true, if your time horizon is short enough.

Another interpretation is that if ALEC panders to their Republican pol pals on wedge issues, they'll be happier to do them favours later on, e.g. passing unpopular legislation that ALEC wants.

Comment 2 by caseyg5

Well, back in the day such people had a functioning sense of shame. No more. All assertions by people disagreed with on one or more core issues are part of an elaborate propaganda campaign and can be ignored.

Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:46:39 UTC | #932286

Eyerish's Avatar Comment 15 by Eyerish

All I hear are duelling banjos. Sorry to all those intelligent people in Tennessee who don't share the ideals of their government but I'm sure your brain is hurting as much as mine when I read about the backward backwoods mentality of these loving caring Christians who not only want to send their education system back to the dark ages they want the Tennessee Inquistion to start and let religious prejudice and hate be an excuse for bullying and beating people up - "Oops sorry your honour but I killed him because he upset me by saying my God does not exist". Sounds very Taliban to me and enshrining the very things they hate about the competition (Islam). Unfortunately these people can still reproduce.

Wed, 04 Apr 2012 12:12:47 UTC | #932324

zeerust2000's Avatar Comment 16 by zeerust2000

I'm just gobsmacked over this. It's ok to bully someone if your your religion teaches you to hate them? This seems clearly aimed at giving a free pass to bullying aimed at gays. I'm a teacher, and there are no circumstance under which bullying of any form should be tolerated. Teaching creationism is bad enough, but if this passes it will will have real and severe physical and psychological effects on innocent students. Surely this must be illegal at multiple levels?

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 10:05:45 UTC | #932528

jont23's Avatar Comment 17 by jont23

I found it very hard to stay calm when I read this. I am absolutely astounded by the 'it's ok to bully policy'. What is happening to the US? Official tolerance of bullying is the very very thin edge of a very unpleasent wedge.

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:48:30 UTC | #932540

Sci Fi's Avatar Comment 18 by Sci Fi

Eyerish -

Yup - it's 'funny' how closely the wishes and actions of these morons so closely 'ape' (d'ya see what I did there?) those of the religions they continuously decry.

But you forget.....

...".we are so much more moral than you a-theeeeists. My cousin-sister-wife agrees with me! (At least she does now - after Ah beat her with my extry large bahble with the extry large letters and loooots of pictures so I kin unnerstand it, a-hurgh, a-hurgh... %P )"

Sorry - I shouldn't revert to stereotyping. But when they act so stereotypically..... sigh......

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 14:35:31 UTC | #932556

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 19 by xmaseveeve

Hey, have you seen the News about email Hacking by Sky News? Now we know why James Murdoch 'resigned'!!!! Someone should start a thread!

Comment 9, Casey,

I agree, and I'm wondering if it's even worse than that. This trend of hilariously audacious, conspicuous stealth has been going on for many years, at least since William Lane Craig graduated, and he's no spring sacrificial chicken, slaughtered straight to 'God'. Oh God, now I've made myself sick. (By the way, I wrote God without quotation marks in that last sentence, because it's only blasphemy if you do!) I feel so angry and sickened.

This is deeply worrying and baffling, so forgive a speculative rant, because I have no idea what is even going on here! As far as I can see, which, admittedly, is not far, the Tenessee destroyers of worlds (that is to say, Destroyers of Potential Worlds) are already part of a movement to build a new education system - and they want it eventually to include everyone they intend to bring to Jesus - which is, well, everyone.

They have their own colleges, and so they'll continue to embrace the sadly ignorant students and educate them further into fanatical, prostelytising ignorance. They will teach them how to lie for Jesus. That requires superficial understanding (as a maximum and a minimum standard) and unshakable sophistry. And it means no scientists, or at least if they did produce a world-class scientific genius, just think of how much further he would have taken science without the cognitive clutter of religion. I think this spread of religious power is what David Cameron wants here in the UK, but that belongs in the Cameron thread.

Christians are, deliberately and explicitly in the UK, and at least by default, in the US, siding with Muslims, against secularism, and, by implication, against atheism (ie Satanic Worship). I am at a loss, but I'm wondering how they think that would play out. Do they have a risk register? By multiculturalism, they mean separatism - live and let live, and allow us our own flavour of fanaticism. Those within the larger groups will outdo one another demonstrating who is more devout. What happens then? Would the Muslims and Christians kill each other, or would they all be dead before that stage by killing each other within their own groups? I think the latter, but either way, we're doomed unless we become a political force, and fast.

I would humbly suggest that, as a first step, whether or not you are a person of faith, every person who posts or lurks on this website should (if he or she has not already done so), as a first step, join the National Secular Society. Someone posted a link on a current thread. The society is 150 years old but not good at recruitment, and so its membership numbers are shockingly low. Let's join, siblings. I'm just about to, today, and it feels good! At least think about it if you care about a child's right to education.

Oh please could someone - Richard Dawkins? - please, please persuade Stephen Fry to stand as a secularist candidate? I know that he is vastly over qualified, and that he would be a reluctant, press-ganged Prime Minister, but a great one. (The job would be less taxing than the incredible amount of work he does now!) Could we please start a petition to let him know that we need him?

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:33:21 UTC | #932565

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 20 by xmaseveeve

Go to Comment 47 on the 'How, realistically, can we get rid of faith schools?' if you want the link to the NSS. I'm addressing those just learning how to use a computer, as I am!

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 16:08:32 UTC | #932571

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 21 by xmaseveeve

They are gambling everything, including the future of everyone else, on a 'sure chance' of Heaven. They've had a hot tip and they are compusive gamblers. Why let them rob us for their stake? Anyone who lets them, by voting, is an addict-enabler. If Americans don't want to divide into states of the pig ignorant and states of the educated, they must wake up now.

Keep Preaching Out of Schools. (That word allows for comparative religion, which children need, to deal with the crazies in the real world and learn about crazies of the past. The alternative meaning would still stand, because we can't legislate for parental influence on belief until well after it becomes abusive.)

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 18:20:59 UTC | #932597

Vorlund's Avatar Comment 22 by Vorlund

Comment 16 by zeerust2000 :

I'm just gobsmacked over this. It's ok to bully someone if your your religion teaches you to hate them?

They probably only want to protect xtian thugs they don't expect xtians to git the asses kicked by any muslims or hindus and the like. You can bet they only think the right sort of xtian can hold sincere beliefs and all the others is jes talkin' shit.

Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:48:52 UTC | #932610

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 23 by xmaseveeve

This is one of the Tennessee threads, to get you started, BFH.

Mon, 09 Apr 2012 00:55:30 UTC | #933159

Big Fat Heretic's Avatar Comment 24 by Big Fat Heretic

Oh WOW!

I just got to say, that this really sucks out loud!

Quote from above article . . .

Tennessee is currently debating a bill that is intended to give schoolyard bullies an exemption from the law if their bullying happens to be motivated by “sincerely held” religious bigotry.

OK, I'm 60 years old now, but I remember, when I was a kid in school, I was often bullied around.

I was lousy at sports because of my crippled up left knee, the result of a car accident, so, I was unable to run, and I walked with a limp.

Back then, if you were no good at sports, or if you didn't care for sports, you were called a pinko, or a Commie or unpatriotic, especially if you didn't like football.

In high school, your masculinity was questioned. I was often called a "queer" or a "sissy" because I didn't like football.

I was the typical science nerd or geek.

I'm straight, but I strongly support the rights of teens who are gay, lesbian, or bi, that they should be free from harassment and bullying.

Recently, a new movie titled "Bully" came out, but it was rated R.

I have signed petitions on line to have the rating reduced from R down to PG13 so that young people under 18 can get to watch it in school. The movie have a very important message for young people, and for teachers and parents.

I understand that in the state of Michigan a similar bill was voted on that would allow bullies to harass some student based on religious or "moral" grounds.

Yeah! I can very well imagine what the results would be.

Gay teens would be harassed bullied to the point of committing suicide.

I also imagine, that the good students making high grades in science and math, the science nerds and techno-geeks, who believe in evolution, would probably be harassed by Bible-thumping bullies, and will be told they're going to Hell.

Yeah! I can see it now. The best and brightest students getting the crap beat out of them by the school yard bullies if they don't believe that dinosaurs wore saddles while being ridden back to the ark.

What is happening in America these day?

Wait! Don't tell me! I think I already know.

This really scares the ever-living bee-jeebers outta me.

I fear for the future of America.

Mon, 09 Apr 2012 02:29:42 UTC | #933178

xmaseveeve's Avatar Comment 25 by xmaseveeve

Yes, it is so baffling and scary.

Mon, 09 Apr 2012 03:10:03 UTC | #933194

medium0rare's Avatar Comment 26 by medium0rare

Why didn't she post the actual bill? I live in TN and I'd love to write in to my rep about this.

Mon, 09 Apr 2012 18:22:06 UTC | #933401

Vicar of Art on Earth's Avatar Comment 27 by Vicar of Art on Earth

I support bringing back an ignorant peasantry who will work cheap, be obedient, can be fooled easily, and will offer no competion for my children wanting a professional career or to their advancement to the upper income brakets. Heck lets go all the way and let the pork eaters sell their daughters into sexual slavery like the Bible says we can and their sons and grandchildren into bondage. Think of the economic upturn if labor did not have to be paid, wait the Republicans are already a head of me on this.

Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:15:39 UTC | #934278

Roedy's Avatar Comment 28 by Roedy

On 2012-04-12 the Catholic church complained the Obama administration was restricting their religious freedom. The two examples they gave:

Hospital employees are covered for birth control. Of course no one is required to use birth control or make claims on the insurance. They want Catholics blocked from being covered.

They want to persecute gays, especially deny marriage equality. Their bible calls for their execution. Obama won’t do this for them.

They are not upset about their own freedom; they are just not as free as before to restrict other people’s freedom.

Do you think neo-Nazi organisations with a clause is their constitution calling for the assassination of all gay people should get government grants? If not, how you do justify putting up with Christian churches getting such grants? They all have that clause in their constitution -- the Old Testament.

Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:53:03 UTC | #934358

Sample's Avatar Comment 29 by Sample

They are not upset about their own freedom; they are just not as free as before to restrict other people’s freedom.

I like that.

Mike

Fri, 13 Apr 2012 09:04:44 UTC | #934361

RomeStu's Avatar Comment 30 by RomeStu

I am gobsmacked to discover that in 1925 public opinion at this level of fundamentalism was on the side of reason, ridiculing the anti-evolutionists, yet today in 2012 they seem to have a free pass for their "beliefs" and a right to respect (?) as well.

America has successfully devolved in the last century! Congratulations.

PS just thought i'd share this great one-liner from the BBC radio comedy "News Quiz" last night....

"Rick Santorum has announced his withdrawal from the Republican nomination race .... in order to spend more time in the 18th century"

And also "all 4 of the original Republican candidates who stated that God had told them to run, have now withdrawn from the race ..... so God was hedging his bets and still lost to the Mormon"

It's going to be a long year....

Sat, 14 Apr 2012 08:28:39 UTC | #934566