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How Sexual Prudery Makes America a Less Healthy and Happy Place - Comments

Cook@Tahiti's Avatar Comment 1 by Cook@Tahiti

Surprising to hear the (atheist) Chinese censoring the brief nude scene in Titanic 3D.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:13:32 UTC | #935376

The Jersey Devil's Avatar Comment 2 by The Jersey Devil

...while the teen birth rates tended to be much lower in New Jersey (24.5 per 1,000)...

Woo hoo!

But even the most Democratic-leaning states in the United States have higher teen birth rates than Spain...

Doh!

Joking aside, anyone who didn't realize that education was important in decision making deserves ridicule. Anyone who thinks shaming kids into abstinence was a viable or even desirable way to overcome a billion years of biology deserves scorn.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:19:01 UTC | #935378

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 3 by Neodarwinian

And at the bottom of the page, " Jan Brewer signs a most restrictive abortion law. "

If you want this belief/lifestyle for yourself, fine, but when you try to impose it on everyone then we will have a problem.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 02:49:14 UTC | #935382

alaskansee's Avatar Comment 4 by alaskansee

@ Neodarwinian

I thought about your comment and kept going in circles, then I realised;

Sin is there to tempt you, it is something you must resist to become a good christian. You can't be a good christian unless you have battled with temptation and won, those that do not win are further temptation for the good christians who then have to work harder and are therefore better christians. Your christian shine of superiority is brightest when you are surrounded by the inferior non-christians.

Like the garden of eden sin/evil is vital.

But it's just more childish ways to explain a cruel world without blaming your god who after all is listening right now, shhhhh! And he fucking perfect!

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 04:02:45 UTC | #935390

Alternative Carpark's Avatar Comment 5 by Alternative Carpark

America is the Christian mirror image of the Islamic world, in so many ways.

Perhaps if this were pointed out to them more...

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 06:07:08 UTC | #935399

PERSON's Avatar Comment 6 by PERSON

Comment 1 by Rtambree :

Surprising to hear the (atheist) Chinese censoring the brief nude scene in Titanic 3D.

Cameron said on Colbert that the official reason was that men would reach out towards the screen, and this would disrupt the viewing of other audience members. Reason or rationalisation?

The Soviets were against porn because, as I understand it, they considered it bourgeois, decadent and corrupting. I don't know if that's an accurate representation of their views, official or private, or what the Chinese take on that is. I think they do in general look down on Westeners as soft and decadent, but I'm not clear on that either.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:40:59 UTC | #935408

SheerReason's Avatar Comment 7 by SheerReason

Striking statistics. I fully expected that the United States would have the highest rate of pregnancies, births, abortions and people living with HIV/AIDS. I also noted that the United Kingdom was vastly different than the rest of Europe. While nowhere near as bad as the U.S., the UK still has much higher rates than the other European countries in the data given in the article.

I'm not sure why that is exactly that the UK has much higher rates of pregnancies, abortions etc. than the other European countries discussed in the article. Perhaps someone here could shed some light on the subject?

Also of note is a staggering rate of Sexually Transmitted Diseases in the U.S. In 2009, Syphilis had a rate of 4.3 cases per 100,000. Gonorrhea had a rate of 99.1 per 100,000 and Chlamydia had a rate of 409.2 per 100,000 just to name a few.

Naturally, the rates are the highest in the Bible Belt of the U.S. and Alaska of all places. ( I can see Gonorrhea from my house )

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:41:40 UTC | #935409

Mee Peestevone's Avatar Comment 8 by Mee Peestevone

What is really sad and disturbing is that in some places in the U.S. after being charged for streaking or for being topless in public or even in your yard if someone can see you especially a child, can get you officially labeled as a sexual offender, which can ruin your life.

Compare this with their neighbour to the north, where the act of being topless is not in itself a sexual act or indecent according to the courts and has been tested and upheld several times.

It is now commonly considered constitutional law in Canada that anywhere a man is allowed to be topless, a woman can be as well.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:43:11 UTC | #935410

AfraidToDie's Avatar Comment 9 by AfraidToDie

Sheer Reason, perhaps the sheer reason lies in our related histories? Our (US) prudish/religious views on sex originated in Britain. We just took it to a higher and more prudish level. We share the same sexual repressive history and most of us will be scarred for life. We often can blame bad traits on the genetics of our parents, so from the US to Britian I’d like to offer a big sarcastic “thanks mom and dad” :-)

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:25:15 UTC | #935419

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 10 by Alan4discussion

Comment 4 by alaskansee

Sin is there to tempt you, it is something you must resist to become a good christian. You can't be a good christian unless you have battled with temptation and won, those that do not win are further temptation for the good christians who then have to work harder and are therefore better christians. Your christian shine of superiority is brightest when you are surrounded by the inferior non-christians.

That is what the far right and xtian cults are about!

Ignorant sheeples with airs of superiority! You can see the same with anti-evolution trolls.
The deeper the ignorant denial and repression, the greater the smug air of superiority.

Comment 7 by SheerReason

I'm not sure why that is exactly that the UK has much higher rates of pregnancies, abortions etc. than the other European countries discussed in the article. Perhaps someone here could shed some light on the subject?

I switched on (UK) Channel 4 TV last night, where on the 5 minute 4thought TV spot, a Catholic muppet was decrying sex education for children, and preaching abstinence, along with a load of disinformation about STI s. He claimed he had been allowed to tour around UK Catholic "faith" schools preaching this crap to the children!

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:34:17 UTC | #935421

mr_DNA's Avatar Comment 11 by mr_DNA

Comment Removed by Author

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:40:50 UTC | #935423

SomersetJohn's Avatar Comment 12 by SomersetJohn

Interesting article. I am impressed with the correlation between the degree of opposition to sex education and abortion and the number of abortions. Perhaps preceding the names of anti-sex education people such as Romney, Santorum, or Palin with the title "abortion promoter" might have some salutory effect.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:44:47 UTC | #935425

mr_DNA's Avatar Comment 13 by mr_DNA

Comment 9 by AfraidToDie :

Sheer Reason, perhaps the sheer reason lies in our related histories? Our (US) prudish/religious views on sex originated in Britain. We just took it to a higher and more prudish level. We share the same sexual repressive history and most of us will be scarred for life. We often can blame bad traits on the genetics of our parents, so from the US to Britian I’d like to offer a big sarcastic “thanks mom and dad” :-)

Some of what you say is true however it is a bit more complex than that and the idea that attitudes to morality are heritable is of course silly. For a start I would say that Britain does not have the same religiosity it once had. Church attendance is down to 20% and even those who do attend church would often not regard sex outside marriage as 'sinful'. So in the UK the problem is most definitely not down to prudery. We also have free open access to contraception and the morning after pill so there is no reason for these high numbers. I would probably say that the problem lies with education as a lot of our young people do not bother to use contraception as numerous studies have shown a complete ignorance of reproductive issues among a certain demographic.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:46:23 UTC | #935426

Raiko's Avatar Comment 14 by Raiko

Even though half of the part about Germany was about the UK, I am glad and surprised we were listed as an examplary part of the "good side" with our nude beaches, medatory sex ed, civil unions. On the other side: This is sad. Germany made it to the list and we're, in fact, not that very progressive over here and ruled by the more conservative of the two main parties that discriminates against homosexuals and constantly flirts with the pope. We have our government collect church tax for the Catholic and the Lutheran church and religion class in school.

Does anyone know anything about similar statistics in the north European countries (like those of Skandinavia)? That would be really interesting, I think.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:06:47 UTC | #935432

Roedy's Avatar Comment 15 by Roedy

India has one of the highest HIV rates in the world, but the prudery is quite strange.

A young man from India used to come to me for massages. One day he came over very upset. He had been diagnosed with HIV+. He was sure I was the source. I tried to explain that is not how you get HIV. I probed him trying to find out what other contacts he had. I thought perhaps he had got it from his wife, but she was still HIV-.

Eventually he confessed to sexual activity with males back in India, but he did not think that counted since there was no emotional attraction.

I speculated about his theory of disease

The other problem with prudery is people bust out, and have dangerous sex without precaution with multiple partners they do not know then go back to abstinence. They are much safer to have protected sex every day. Prudes are also much less likely to get tested. Untested they can keep spreading the virus.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:08:08 UTC | #935434

ukantic's Avatar Comment 16 by ukantic

“Prudes,” they would argue, should be upheld as exemplary role models because a sexually repressive society is also a society with fewer unplanned pregnancies and fewer sexually transmitted diseases.

What they really mean is that they have a religious based objection (all this, "sinning" rubbish) against other people's private sexual activity, which they then try to legitimise/rationalise by cherry picking out any negative consequences they can get their hands on.

Other examples of such failed and back to front religious logic are:

Creationists, who start with a biblical based conclusion of a young earth and then interpret (i.e. mutilate) all the available evidence to support it.

Jehovah's Witnesses, who start with the conclusion that blood transfusions are prohibited by the Bible and then list the possible complications of the procedure to support it.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:13:02 UTC | #935435

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 17 by strangebrew

Comment 7 by SheerReason

I'm not sure why that is exactly that the UK has much higher rates of pregnancies, abortions etc. than the other European countries discussed in the article. Perhaps someone here could shed some light on the subject?

As Alan4discussion @ Comment 10 replied...religion is really at the base here of the problem And it will get worse.

They constantly foul up any responsible programming in schools for sex education and responsibilities. They do not want kids to understand the modern world...mainly because they have a circa 1950 attitude based on the 12th century...they are not helping in the least.

Now with faith schools they are really in the forefront of misleading and hopelessly dogmatic insistence that sex education must not be taught because it is for parents to do.

Most parents are even less informed then the kids these days... The media are hopeless, often towing the religious line, teachers and educators are hamstrung in what they can actually do or say in class for fear of receiving a disciplinary hearing for obscenity or worse. The peadophilanauts are in a constant crusade against a perceived but remarkably rare occurrence compared to their 'stranger danger' paranoid literature that cranks up the hysteria in parents and society and the media feed into that fear.

In that climate sex education suffers...resulting in a pathetic juvenile attempt involving bunny rabbits and banal innuendo...no wonder the kids giggle and blush at the back, and miss the point totally, there is no mature game plan available in blighty because old codgers in parliament and religious leaders tell the public that it is not needed. About the pregnancy and STI bonanza the only advice involves going to church more often.

Prudish behaviour is enforced from lingerie adverts to museum exhibits, yet the public get all excited and titillated by a 'Burlesque dancer' on 'Britain's got idiots'..(mind you she was good!)

And they love reading about sexy shenanigans & peccadilloes of the rich and demented...on a Sunday morning before church apparently...well those that go anyways!

In short it is a fucking mess...and the statistics are no shock. Britain is a wonderfully pragmatic country with many fine qualities but the lunatics are running the asylum...it will end in tears and it has many times, and will continue to do so until religion and self styled busy body moral heroes are told unequivocally to butt out! Of course in the meantime the kids lose out on valuable and important life lessons.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:16:29 UTC | #935437

mr_DNA's Avatar Comment 18 by mr_DNA

Comment 17 by strangebrew :

Comment 7 by SheerReason

I'm not sure why that is exactly that the UK has much higher rates of pregnancies, abortions etc. than the other European countries discussed in the article. Perhaps someone here could shed some light on the subject?

As Alan4discussion @ Comment 10 replied...religion is really at the base here of the problem And it will get worse.

They constantly foul up any responsible programming in schools for sex education and responsibilities. They do not want kids to understand the modern world...mainly because they have a circa 1950 attitude based on the 12th century...they are not helping in the least.

Now with faith schools they are really in the forefront of misleading and hopelessly dogmatic insistence that sex education must not be taught because it is for parents to do.

Most parents are even less informed then the kids these days... The media are hopeless, often towing the religious line, teachers and educators are hamstrung in what they can actually do or say in class for fear of receiving a disciplinary hearing for obscenity or worse. The peadophilanauts are in a constant crusade against a perceived but remarkably rare occurrence compared to their 'stranger danger' paranoid literature that cranks up the hysteria in parents and society and the media feed into that fear.

In that climate sex education suffers...resulting in a pathetic juvenile attempt involving bunny rabbits and banal innuendo...no wonder the kids giggle and blush at the back, and miss the point totally, there is no mature game plan available in blighty because old codgers in parliament and religious leaders tell the public that it is not needed. About the pregnancy and STI bonanza the only advice involves going to church more often.

Prudish behaviour is enforced from lingerie adverts to museum exhibits, yet the public get all excited and titillated by a 'Burlesque dancer' on 'Britain's got idiots'..(mind you she was good!)

And they love reading about sexy shenanigans & peccadilloes of the rich and demented...on a Sunday morning before church apparently...well those that go anyways!

In short it is a fucking mess...and the statistics are no shock. Britain is a wonderfully pragmatic country with many fine qualities but the lunatics are running the asylum...it will end in tears and it has many times, and will continue to do so until religion and self styled busy body moral heroes are told unequivocally to butt out! Of course in the meantime the kids lose out on valuable and important life lessons.

Sorry, I am not a religious apologist, but what your comments are way off the mark. Everything religion puts into the debate is wrong and unhelpful but you cannot pin teen pregnancy and STDs on religion. I was a teacher for many years and I can tell you the problem is more about getting the message of safe sex across.

These kids do not shape their actions in any way or form based on the views of a church they don't attend.

Educators in state schools do not "tow the religious line", quite the opposite. I was a teacher for years and I can tell you that in state schools the emphasis is on getting a message across about the health consequences of unprotected sex without making a comment about morality. This is why most schools have an open door policy to visiting a health advisor who can offer free contraception and advice in anonymity.

These measures have of course come up for criticism in the right wing press but as yet they have not effected policy.

So to repeat the problem would definitely be made worse if religious thinking made its mark; but the causes are multi-factorial.

If we abolished churches overnight the problem wouldn't go away. We need to be wary of portraying religion as the bogey man responsible for all societies ills and recognise society as a complex structure with many potential causes of harm.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:56:40 UTC | #935442

rationalmind's Avatar Comment 19 by rationalmind

Comment 16 by ukantic :

“Prudes,” they would argue, should be upheld as exemplary role models because a sexually repressive society is also a society with fewer unplanned pregnancies and fewer sexually transmitted diseases.

What they really mean is that they have a religious based objection (all this, "sinning" rubbish) against other people's private sexual activity, which they then try to legitimise/rationalise by cherry picking out any negative consequences they can get their hands on.

Other examples of such failed and back to front religious logic are:

Creationists, who start with a biblical based conclusion of a young earth and then interpret (i.e. mutilate) all the available evidence to support it.

Jehovah's Witnesses, who start with the conclusion that blood transfusions are prohibited by the Bible and then list the possible complications of the procedure to support it.

What a dreadful thing to happen just because of having a religious delusion.

Incidentally, Jehovah's Witlesses (sic) are , in my experience, creationists too.

I once had the misfortune of opening my door to go out and running slap bang into a pair of them. I criticised their beliefs to them and discovered thet were also creationists, "Evolution is only a theory." I called them illiterate because of that, that didn't seem to phase them. Apparently this cult discourages education! It is OK to be ignorant of basic biology. What did get through to them was telling them to read The God Delusion and particularly that they had an imaginary friend! It rather annoyed them.

This bunch are only a bit worse. Not having blood transfusions is not much nuttier than believing that a wafer turns into the flesh of a 2000 year old jew!

You are right about chery picking. All these religions do it. They even chery pick from the Bible.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 09:58:31 UTC | #935443

Cartomancer's Avatar Comment 20 by Cartomancer

The really shocking part is that articles like this should be considered at all newsworthy in this day and age. Not because this is a bad article (it isn't) but because none of this is at all new or controversial. We've known that sexual prudery leads to massively increased sexual dysfunction problems for many decades. The evidence has been pretty clear on this for the last fifty years.

And yet, somehow the undeniable EVIDENCE that social prudery is bad for society hasn't curbed it to any significant degree. I guess social prudery has a dynamic epidemiology all of its own, unrelated to recognition of crystal clear scientific fact.

The question is, why don't US liberals (and, indeed, UK liberals) bang on about these figures a lot more? I can't remember the last time anyone in either country stood up and made the very argument this article makes in a public speech on healthcare and culture. Yet it is a massively compelling argument, and rhetorically very persuasive. Nothing less than "we have a big problem other people don't, here's how we solve it, and there aren't ANY down sides". Yet when we do get any kind of defence for sexual freedom and the importance of social liberalism in politics it's always couched in wishy-washy abstract terms of fundamental freedoms of expression and tolerance for others, which are fine, but don't cut to the quick of the issue. Freedom from sexual hang-ups is not just about social freedom, it's about making people healthier, happier and better adjusted. And the statistics prove it.

One might argue that "those funny foreigners do it better than we do" is not a very encouraging message in societies as xenophobic as the US and the UK. But surely that can be spun out into a galvanising message even more effectively, along the lines of "are you going to let those funny foreigners do it better than we do, or are we going to show them that we're not the laughing stock they currently think we are?"

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:08:08 UTC | #935445

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 21 by strangebrew

Comment 18 by mr_DNA

you cannot pin teen pregnancy and STDs on religion.

You can when the religionist deliberately make the awareness of such things reduced to the whispered giggles and ignorance of the bike sheds at playtime...which is what is happening whether you like that or not! That is the only place kids can get any idea, however wrong and misguided, about sexual relations. Condom use is not highlighted and female contraception revolves around the rhythm or pill method. That is the only information some kids have when they embark on sexual encounters.

Educators in state schools do not "tow the religious line",

Never said they did..OI said they were hamstrung by possible litigation or disciplinary measures. I thought a teacher could accomplish comprehension a little better.

I was a teacher for many years and I can tell you the problem is more about getting the message of safe sex across.

And why is that not happening?

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:16:06 UTC | #935447

SaganTheCat's Avatar Comment 22 by SaganTheCat

it's all very well using "facts" and "statistics" in political arguments but we all know the faith card trumps all in america

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:34:05 UTC | #935449

S. Gudmundsson's Avatar Comment 23 by S. Gudmundsson

Comment 5 by Alternative Carpark :

America is the Christian mirror image of the Islamic world, in so many ways.

Perhaps if this were pointed out to them more...

Except that one of these religions has undergone an Enlightenment and the other has not.

Then again, as the American Taliban keep pushing to make the U.S. more like Iran and other theocracies around the world, the more Christianity and Islam begin once again to exhibit their shared roots.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:36:24 UTC | #935450

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 24 by Premiseless

Comment 19 by rationalmind :

Incidentally, Jehovah's Witlesses (sic) are , in my experience, creationists too.

I once had the misfortune of opening my door to go out and running slap bang into a pair of them. I criticised their beliefs to them and discovered thet were also creationists, "Evolution is only a theory." I called them illiterate because of that, that didn't seem to phase them. Apparently this cult discourages education! It is OK to be ignorant of basic biology.

Do NOT go in THEIR WATER! Water is the NO RETURN to sanity swim! Baptism is an whole other ball game!

I once suspected a mature father, of already numerous children and probably with his own rational take on life, as having ulterior motives for pretending to be a convert after having his door knocked on, showing all the signs of a goody goody, getting to rent a room in one of their houses, then securing the loyalties of their teenage virgin before the parents had realised what was afoot. Marriage was an obvious result, but it struck me as an unusual smash and grab event for sure.

I think this a classic case of being spit roasted for exploitation. Parents get exploited by religion. Religion gets exploited by outsider. Parents in the middle and the children kinda in the twilight zone and hoping god or they get a perspective on all this.

Anyhow, their putrid doctrine is to not speak to you. It gets announced your are a "HOT ASHES" thinker and everyone cuts you out. Only the higher ups engage you - in Biblical passages.

Personal reason is OFF the agenda!

One example: You express reservations that their headquarters have guys there that the Bible quotes as gods "faithful and discreet slave". A kinda Pope boardroom group!

Once you do this the shit will drop on your head. Life is weird when not a single human will have a rational conversation with you both before you gather all your doubts and especialy after you mention them.

Critical. Apostacy is reprehensible to them. You have to say, " I think these guys are gods connection to humans on Earth."

So I'd say it's not good to be truthful and honest when you're in religion - that may and likely will get you shafted. It's better to play them back at their own game - do the done thing but be deliberately hypocritical and keep your own head screwed on that their belief is simply a top down army tactic. Appear to follow the rules and do your thing. You'd be amazed how many times I saw that!

Better still get a rational crowd to hang out with - if one exists near you - which I failed on! :(

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 10:44:39 UTC | #935451

mr_DNA's Avatar Comment 25 by mr_DNA

Comment 21 by strangebrew :

I see a string of rebuttals but no evidence for your claims which are based on your own perceptions probably gained from the media. Without meaning to be personal your assertions are bollox.

That is the only place kids can get any idea, however wrong and misguided, about sexual relations. Condom use is not highlighted and female contraception revolves around the rhythm or pill method. That is the only information some kids have when they embark on sexual encounters.

That is simply false. Students are told every relevant fact about reproduction several times through out their time in school. They get shown condoms and it is even explained how to use them. As I said they are told of places where they can collect them for free.

Never said they did..OI said they were hamstrung by possible litigation or disciplinary measures. I thought a teacher could accomplish comprehension a little better.

Ok I misquoted on you that because on rereading you said that about the media and implied that teachers held back for fear of reprisals. Again unfortunately, I don't know where you get your facts from. As I stated sex education and health advise is given which basically means this comment is either false or that educators or brave enough to stand up to legal threats. I suspect though you made this statement because you are confusing the US with the UK. I never heard this mentioned once in ten years in the staff room or from any of my colleagues. Can you please cite any legal case where a school or LEA has been successfully challenged in court over the teaching of PSE? You are inventing a rationale for something that doesn't exist.

I was a teacher for many years and I can tell you the problem is more about getting the message of safe sex across.

And why is that not happening?

Well the answer to that has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with parents not supporting what schools try and teach. This applies to a lot more than sex education. Parents ultimately have far greater influence over their kids than teahcers. You might make a case that the parents are pushing their religious views on their kids but I would find that very unconvincing because most families in the UK are not overtly religious especially in state schools.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:00:58 UTC | #935453

mr_DNA's Avatar Comment 26 by mr_DNA

Incidently, for any other readers who buy into the idea that educators in the UK live in fear of reprisals from religious groups and do not practice sex education. You can always check out the Department of Educations website. You can verify for your self that it is a legal requirement to teach and definitely includes a requirement to teach about contraception. This applies to faith schools also.

The link is http://www.education.gov.uk/

Here is a quote from that site.

"This Government remains committed to reducing rates of teenage pregnancy still further and improving outcomes for young parents and their children. This is central to our aim to reduce inter-generational poverty and inequalities. That's why the under-18 conception rate is a national measure of child poverty and one of the three sexual health indicators in the Public Health Outcomes Framework.

The good news is we know what works. The evidence shows that comprehensive education about relationships and sex (SRE), combined with easy access to effective contraception are the two essential ingredients for reducing teenage pregnancy. Every young person needs decent SRE and contraception advice, and we know the vast majority are already receiving it through dedicated professionals like you. We know that your support does help teenage parents' access really good contraceptive advice to help prevent repeat pregnancies."

If you see the reality here you will see that what Strangebrew wrote was false. These are real problems. But the problem does not lie with education. As an atheist I value facts and evidence and will always challenge claims that I know to be wrong and are insulting to thousands of dedicated professionals.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:33:14 UTC | #935457

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 27 by Premiseless

Comment 25 by mr_DNA :

Well the answer to that has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with parents not supporting what schools try and teach. This applies to a lot more than sex education. Parents ultimately have far greater influence over their kids than teahcers. You might make a case that the parents are pushing their religious views on their kids but I would find that very unconvincing because most families in the UK are not overtly religious especially in state schools.

Think about this. Once society has a rational generation they will more form a critical mass that may be better placed to offer exactly that; a rational approach to sex education, relationships per se and relative choices.

What we are often finding ourselves doing is blaming the problem back on those who inherited problems they simply pass on in some skewed version or other.

Like Richard says, if we get a generation of children growing up with a rational secular education, the cycles will start to break. However, as we see all too often, religion is resorted to as an irrational dominance deserving of rational authority. This tells you something important! Even the leadership (everyone at the very top of society) haven't worked out how to break this cycle without somehow doing themselves a mischief! Therefore they pass on the same poor parenting of religion/reasoning as we are aiming at the long history of parents who suffer its vices, that they pass on. It's a chaos ever waiting to be a chaos.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:39:30 UTC | #935458

ukantic's Avatar Comment 28 by ukantic

Comment 19 by rationalmind :

Incidentally, Jehovah's Witlesses (sic) are , in my experience, creationists too.

I once had the misfortune of opening my door to go out and running slap bang into a pair of them.

Yep, they can be a bit of a nuisance, but they are not the only ones. I am thinking of getting a sign made for my front door, something along the lines of:

No Colder Callers - we do not require converting between religions, utilities or UPVC glazing systems this week - thank you.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:41:32 UTC | #935460

Premiseless's Avatar Comment 29 by Premiseless

Comment 28 by ukantic :

No Colder Callers - we do not require converting between religions, utilities or UPVC glazing systems this week - thank you.

Unless of course you have artillery like; a full bladder, hot curry house of flatulence, double thick short sighted spectacles and a body that looks like god in the mirror. Then you can take on all comers.

I once heard a story of a religious door knocker in SA where the guy answered displaying a full house and the woman was immediately converted. Her god had met its match!

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 11:54:29 UTC | #935461

QuestioningKat's Avatar Comment 30 by QuestioningKat

I'm not convinced "prudery" is the cause of a less healthy and happy place. Yahoo (internet garbage news) recently had an article on places in the US where women earn the least amount of money. I guess the south and places like Utah before I read the article. Guess what? It's an obvious guess. But what are the real issues going on? What are the rates of poverty and how does it relate to teen pregnancy? What is the educational level of the parent of the teen who is pregnant? What type of family problems are occurring at the time of the teen pregnancy? What is the level of social class, culture, education, and curiosity (to learn and change) among this group?

"Prudery" may or may not be a badge depending on whether the person's intention is to uphold the best in themselves or whether they are following someone else's rules. Making a stand for yourself is a good thing. Drop kicking a potential mate who is an idiot is a good and wise thing. Being "prudent" about your birth control is a good thing. Prudent ---"1. wise or judicious in practical affairs; sagacious; discreet or circumspect; sober. 2. careful in providing for the future; provident: a prudent decision." Prudent is a word that needs to be reclaimed from people who see this sexuality issue as either "doing it" or "not doing it."

It's simple. People are not taught to be respectful of themselves. To be respectful of yourself you take care of your body, your thoughts, your actions. You strive for self betterment while giving other people the space to do the same. Lack of education is not being respectful of treating others with fairness. Taking to heart others' views without questioning them is seeing yourself as less capable and disrespects yourself and the other person by not challenging them to grow and change through questioning and dissent.

Yes other countries or cultures may be a few steps ahead of the US, but saying it's just religious prudery is painting the picture with a broad brush.

Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:04:02 UTC | #935463