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Turf wars expose the rot within Holy See - Comments

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 1 by Red Dog

The coverage of this in the US Main Stream Media is interesting. Almost all the emphasis is on the fact that documents were leaked. The stories are often slanted to emphasize the minor crime of releasing the documents rather than the far more serious corruption that the documents expose.

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:22:26 UTC | #945340

Leszek's Avatar Comment 2 by Leszek

I was Catholic before I deconverted. I went to Catholic Grade schools. My high school was Catholic Central High. I was an alter boy. As an alter boy I went to church 6 days a week, on my own volition!

I still believe that Catholicism is not that bad. (Though I do think the world would be better off without religion.)

Even though I am atheist now, it saddens me to think about how rotten the church is, was, and has become. I just want to have an audience with Pope, just to tell him to get his shit together. I am tired of being ashamed of the church. Stop blaming atheists for Nazi's and clean house already. When you are more interested in protecting your image than morality, you lose both!

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:27:36 UTC | #945341

The Truth, the light's Avatar Comment 3 by The Truth, the light

Something is rotten in the state of the Vatican.

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:30:08 UTC | #945343

KRKBAB's Avatar Comment 4 by KRKBAB

"I still believe that Catholicism is not that bad."- That could be said of almost any religion that one was once a member of and had relatively good memories of it. However, Catholicism along with all other forms of religion have been the enablers and instigators of immense suffering to date. I'm not saying it's bad to have fond personal memories of your past superstitions, but to say Catholicism isn't that bad is to trivialize and ignore the murder, rape and general mayhem that it has caused in years since it's inception.

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:27:11 UTC | #945355

Neodarwinian's Avatar Comment 5 by Neodarwinian

" This was unfair to old women, most of whom are in touch with reality and not obsessed with power. "

Oh I think those in the Vatican are quite in touch with reality as the power they obsess over is of this world and as real as real gets. I also think those in the Vatican do not confuse power with control and never have. To much suffering inflicted on the world for that confusion to be in their thinking.

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:34:56 UTC | #945359

Leszek's Avatar Comment 6 by Leszek

Comment 4 by KRKBAB :

"I still believe that Catholicism is not that bad."- That could be said of almost any religion that one was once a member of and had relatively good memories of it. However, Catholicism along with all other forms of religion have been the enablers and instigators of immense suffering to date. I'm not saying it's bad to have fond personal memories of your past superstitions, but to say Catholicism isn't that bad is to trivialize and ignore the murder, rape and general mayhem that it has caused in years since it's inception.

A very fair point. And I know it. Still doesn't change the fact that I don't see the current church in the same light as say, YEC's for example. Funny how that works.

Sun, 03 Jun 2012 23:56:51 UTC | #945372

Alternative Carpark's Avatar Comment 7 by Alternative Carpark

"I still believe that Catholicism is not that bad."

It all depends where, and when you, live.

Growing up in the UK in the 70s and 80s, and only ever having been to Catholic schools, my experience of Catholicism was rather benign, even in retrospect. So it is hardly surprising that I remained something of an apologist for quite a while after having drifted away from it, seeing it as the lesser of several evils.

My position on Catholicism grew increasingly negative over time, but it was Prof Dawkins who delivered a sudden, brutal coup de grâce with the excellent "Root of All Evil?". By the end of the first five minutes, I had already resolved never again to even identify as 'cultural Christian'.

That said, I have no bad memories of my time in the church. I guess I was one of the lucky ones.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 02:10:32 UTC | #945385

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 8 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 7 by Alternative Carpark

Growing up in the UK in the 70s and 80s, and only ever having been to Catholic schools, my experience of Catholicism was rather benign, even in retrospect.

And yet at the same time, not a hundred miles away, it was one half of brutal and murderous Christian sectarianism.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 09:35:42 UTC | #945426

Corylus's Avatar Comment 9 by Corylus

Last year, Bertone notably saw off Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, who as secretary general of the Governatorate of the Vatican city state, had reportedly turned a $9.5m deficit into a $40m surplus, but whose reforming zeal had won him few friends. Instead of being given the top job when his boss died, he was shunted off to be apostolic nuncio in Washington.

What an astonishing statistic. Debt wiped out and $40m more for charitable deeds; you would think they would be pleased.

Good job I am not a catholic, for that sort of self-serving behaviour would depress me no end.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:20:26 UTC | #945436

Alan4discussion's Avatar Comment 10 by Alan4discussion

The conclusion I reached in my late teens was that the church's nerve centre was run by a crowd of old women. This was unfair to old women, most of whom are in touch with reality and not obsessed with power.

This seems to fit!

Geriatrics in dresses, who have not been out of their care-home recently!

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:48:44 UTC | #945443

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 11 by Tyler Durden

Comment 8 by Ignorant Amos :

Comment 7 by Alternative Carpark

Growing up in the UK in the 70s and 80s, and only ever having been to Catholic schools, my experience of Catholicism was rather benign, even in retrospect.

And yet at the same time, not a hundred miles away, it was one half of brutal and murderous Christian sectarianism.

And just down the road in the Archdioceses of Dublin, Cloyne, and Ferns... well, we've been here many times before.

In other news:

Healing a broken church - Irish Times, Saturday, June 2, 2012

A survey of Irish Catholics by Amárach Research in February found that church teachings on sexuality had “no relevance” for 75 per cent of them or their families. It found that 87 per cent of Catholics believe priests should be allowed to marry and that 77 per cent believe there should be women priests.

In 1970 Ireland had almost 4,000 diocesan priests. Today that figure is 2,160, with 687 others retired, ill, on study leave or working elsewhere. Their average age is 64. In 1970 164 men entered Irish seminaries. Last year the figure was 22.

The Amárach survey also found weekly Mass attendance in Ireland was 35 per cent. Last December Archbishop Martin disclosed that weekly Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per cent and said that within eight years just 235 priests will be available to serve full time in Dublin’s 199 parishes. Dublin’s Catholic archdiocese was facing its biggest crisis since Catholic Emancipation in 1829, the archbishop said.

"Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per pent" - a truly incredible statistic, as one who grew up, and lives, in Dublin, I find this quite revealing, and heartening.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 11:43:35 UTC | #945454

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 12 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 11 by Tyler Durden

"Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per pent" - a truly incredible statistic, as one who grew up, and lives, in Dublin, I find this quite revealing, and heartening.

Indeed....all very encouraging stuff.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 13:14:02 UTC | #945461

frax71's Avatar Comment 13 by frax71

Comment 11 by Tyler Durden

"Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per pent" - a truly incredible statistic, as one who grew up, and lives, in Dublin, I find this quite revealing, and heartening.

With statistics like this I wonder how many of the 1.2 billion catholics claimed by the RCC worldwide actively support the church or even attend services on a regular basis. Does anyone know of any statistical analysis carried out which attempts to answer that question ?

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:10:17 UTC | #945468

CEVA34's Avatar Comment 14 by CEVA34

I don't know if this is the kind of question I'm allowed to ask, but here goes: Is anyone here a regular reader of "Private Eye" ? I gave up on it a while ago because of the Christian devoutness of the editor, manifested in digs at Richard Dawkins whenever the opportunity presents itself.

What I want to know is this: has the magazine said much about the recent travails of the Catholic Church? I have a horrid suspicion it hasn't; I hope I'm wrong.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:37:14 UTC | #945473

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 15 by Tyler Durden

Comment 13 by frax71 :

With statistics like this I wonder how many of the 1.2 billion catholics claimed by the RCC worldwide actively support the church or even attend services on a regular basis. Does anyone know of any statistical analysis carried out which attempts to answer that question ?

From that same article in the Irish Times:

A survey of Irish Catholics by Amárach Research in February found that church teachings on sexuality had “no relevance” for 75 per cent of them or their families. It found that 87 per cent of Catholics believe priests should be allowed to marry and that 77 per cent believe there should be women priests.

Irish Catholics certainly do not take their view on issues such as contraception, pre-marital sex, family planning and cohabitation from the RCC, as they once did.

I guess the RCC take their 1.2 billion number from individual census figures, which in Ireland in 2011, a massive 84 per cent ticked the Roman Catholic box. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", eh?

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:53:56 UTC | #945480

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 16 by strangebrew

"Mass attendance in Dublin is down to 14 per pent"

Then whatever they do they are in a uphill struggle.

That figure in the death knell surely? such piss poor attendance figures would close most attractions overnight, no doubt the RC coffers are busy haemorrhaging their loot propping up the façade...but even so they are truly buggered...for a change!

That is an unsustainable loss, and I cannot see any way back for them! When the older generation pop their clogs methinks they will have to close up shop! Do the seminaries automatically pass all entrants these days...it would explain the quality issues that is so prevalent? I heard that at one time...quite a while ago in the 60's I think they only managed a 25% pass rate after final exams? So those 22 buffoons mentioned going into seminary might raise a staggering 5 or 6 +/_ to delude the deluded.

Still 5 or 6 is far to many which ever way it cuts!

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 15:04:29 UTC | #945485

Red Dog's Avatar Comment 17 by Red Dog

Comment 14 by CEVA34 :

I don't know if this is the kind of question I'm allowed to ask, but here goes: Is anyone here a regular reader of "Private Eye" ? I gave up on it a while ago because of the Christian devoutness of the editor, manifested in digs at Richard Dawkins whenever the opportunity presents itself.

What I want to know is this: has the magazine said much about the recent travails of the Catholic Church? I have a horrid suspicion it hasn't; I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know what Private Eye is but I agree the RCC has been amazingly quiet describing the pedo scandal and other travails to their own members. I remember a while back when the pederasty scandal was making headlines almost daily, I asked my mom, who still goes to mass every sunday and also does volunteer work for her church, what the priests were saying about it. They were saying exactly nothing. Not even mentioning it at all.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 15:06:57 UTC | #945486

frax71's Avatar Comment 18 by frax71

Comment 15 by Tyler Durden :

I guess the RCC take their 1.2 billion number from individual census figures, which in Ireland in 2011, a massive 84 per cent ticked the Roman Catholic box. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", eh?

Quite, but is there not the added problem that the RCC does not recognise an individual as an ex-catholic unless that person subjects themself to a de-baptism interview with a local priest. And until you do, you will remain a catholic, lapsed perhaps, but never an ex-catholic.Thus they can go ahead and count you as still a member of the flock.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 16:26:06 UTC | #945499

frax71's Avatar Comment 19 by frax71

Comment 17 by Red Dog :

I don't know what Private Eye is

It is a weekly satirical/political magazine in the UK and it's current editor Ian Hislop is a very public christian. It does have a web-site which you can check out here

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 16:37:06 UTC | #945501

frax71's Avatar Comment 20 by frax71

Comment 17 by Red Dog :

I don't know what Private Eye is but I agree the RCC has been amazingly quiet describing the pedo scandal and other travails to their own members. I remember a while back when the pederasty scandal was making headlines almost daily, I asked my mom, who still goes to mass every sunday and also does volunteer work for her church, what the priests were saying about it. They were saying exactly nothing. Not even mentioning it at all.

Saying nothing has become almost an art form for the RCC hierarchy, and according to this report in the Belfast Telegraph it looks set to stay that way

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 16:49:53 UTC | #945502

Tyler Durden's Avatar Comment 21 by Tyler Durden

Comment 18 by frax71 :

Comment 15 by Tyler Durden :

I guess the RCC take their 1.2 billion number from individual census figures, which in Ireland in 2011, a massive 84 per cent ticked the Roman Catholic box. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", eh?

Quite, but is there not the added problem that the RCC does not recognise an individual as an ex-catholic unless that person subjects themself to a de-baptism interview with a local priest. And until you do, you will remain a catholic, lapsed perhaps, but never an ex-catholic.Thus they can go ahead and count you as still a member of the flock.

Indeed, which is why I formally defected from the RCC in 2009, after such an interview with Archbishop Martin's assistant, and received my original 'Birth and Baptismal Cert' in the post soon after with the words: "Cessation of membership by formal act of defection" - along with a letter from Archbishop Martin stating he was "saddened when somebody chooses to leave the Church."

I can thoroughly recommend it.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 16:50:00 UTC | #945503

Stonyground's Avatar Comment 22 by Stonyground

Wouldn't it be more fun to get yourself excommunicated?

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 18:05:27 UTC | #945521

frax71's Avatar Comment 23 by frax71

Comment 22 by Stonyground :

Wouldn't it be more fun to get yourself excommunicated?

Probably, and amazingly easy to achieve if you happen to be a priest. All that is required is that you indulge in a normal loving relationship with an adult and then refuse to break it off when told to do so, job done

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 18:36:59 UTC | #945523

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 23 by frax71

Wouldn't it be more fun to get yourself excommunicated?

Probably, and amazingly easy to achieve if you happen to be a priest. All that is required is that you indulge in a normal loving relationship with an adult and then refuse to break it off when told to do so, job done

But very hard (none to date) to get excommunicated if your a priest indulging in an abnormal relationship by interfering with young children.

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 19:27:18 UTC | #945537

frax71's Avatar Comment 25 by frax71

Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos :

But very hard (none to date) to get excommunicated if your a priest indulging in an abnormal relationship by interfering with young children.

Shamefully, quite so Amos

Mon, 04 Jun 2012 19:40:41 UTC | #945541

strangebrew's Avatar Comment 26 by strangebrew

Comment 25 by frax71 :

Comment 24 by Ignorant Amos :

But very hard (none to date) to get excommunicated if your a priest indulging in an abnormal relationship by interfering with young children.

Shamefully, quite so Amos

It is interesting to consider what the RCC response dictates as an act of charity!

And what they consider as charitable response to organizations dedicated to the victims of 'katolic lurve'

They have not got the memo yet...they do not want the memo...they reject the memo...they see nothing wrong...they are moral!

They will deny the memo unto their dying day...they are in total and complete denial because after all it is all the atheists, homosexuals, and hippy liberals hatin' on the Katolic belief!...that is all this 'unpleasantness is' ...simples!

And them damn wimmins' ain't helpin one little bit...They actually mention sex...so anti-catholic...they are going to hell you see if they don't!!

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:02:08 UTC | #945678

Ignorant Amos's Avatar Comment 27 by Ignorant Amos

Comment 26 by strangebrew

It is interesting to consider what the RCC response dictates as an act of charity!

Absolutely un-fucking believable....their debasement knows no bounds. Voluntary redundancy with benefits for raping children, where else would ya get it? Who was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith in 2003 when permission for this was sought from the Vatican? Here's a clue....

After a long career as an academic, serving as a professor of theology at various German universities—the last being the University of Regensburg—he was appointed Archbishop of Munich and Freising and cardinal by Pope Paul VI in 1977. In 1981, he settled in Rome when he became Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, one of the most important dicasteries of the Roman Curia. From 2002 until his election as Pope, he was also Dean of the College of Cardinals, and as such the primus inter pares among the cardinals. Prior to becoming Pope, he was "a major figure on the Vatican stage for a quarter of a century" as "one of the most respected, influential and controversial members of the College of Cardinals"; he had an influence "second to none when it came to setting church priorities and directions" as one of Pope John Paul II's closest confidants

Holy Joe is up to his neck in it, there can be no doubt.

And what they consider as charitable response to organizations dedicated to the victims of 'katolic lurve'

Joseph Zwilling, Dolan’s New York Archdiocese spokesman, told The Post last week that there was no “payoff” to pedophile priests — only “charity.”

The bare faced cheek of these vile pieces of shite knows no bounds.

But Dolan fumed, “SNAP has no credibility whatsoever.”

I'll have ta get me one of them there RCC irony meters that Dolan has, they seem to be made from sterner stuff than my own.

They have not got the memo yet...they do not want the memo...they reject the memo...they see nothing wrong...they are moral!

Worse than that is the droves of 'katolik lurvee's' that continue to give them succour. All 'katoliks' should be ashamed of themselves. If I'm to sympathise in any way, it is because the memo hasn't been received...or hasn't percolated down to the bums on pews...but given that the information is hard to avoid, any sympathy is just about waned out.

They will deny the memo unto their dying day...they are in total and complete denial because after all it is all the atheists, homosexuals, and hippy liberals hatin' on the Katolic belief!...that is all this 'unpleasantness is' ...simples!

Yip...it's all my heathen baby-eating fault, it's myself that I should be ashamed at, my devil thoughts have induced Gods righteous to debauchery of such maleficent levels.

And them damn wimmins' ain't helpin one little bit...They actually mention sex...so anti-catholic...they are going to hell you see if they don't!!

The 'wimmin' should be the target audience for the RCC, they need to keep their Prada loafers on the neck of the 'wimmins'....if they lose the servitude of the 'wimmins' they'll be well and truly fecked.

Thanks for those links...just when I think nothing more can astound me in this debacle....I get astounded.

Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:43:16 UTC | #945690

OHooligan's Avatar Comment 28 by OHooligan

Given that we know these things:

Pedophiles want to have children entrusted to them. Pedophiles intimidate children into silence. Pedophiles are liars. Pedophiles protect other pedophiles. Pedophiles train (some of) their victims to become pedophiles Pedophiles don't need contraception. Pedophiles don't need abortion. Pedophiles don't need to care about women. Pedophiles don't mind being celibate.

If there was an organization designed for and dedicated to the propagation of pedophilia and the protection support and enjoyment of pedophiles, one that had survived for dozens of generations, what would you expect it to look like?

I don't think I've seen this question asked before. Anyone care to suggest an answer?

Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:49:51 UTC | #946965

RJMoore's Avatar Comment 29 by RJMoore

Comment 28 by OHooligan

Good question and some fair points, but I think some of your characteristics are incorrect and misleading. E.g. 'pedophiles dont mind being celibate'...Why do you think this is true? 'Pedophiles don't need to care about women.'....What does caring about women have to do with it? 'Pedophiles protect other pedophiles.'...Sometimes, but often they dont.

Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:22:42 UTC | #946967

OHooligan's Avatar Comment 30 by OHooligan

OK, RJMoore, thank you for your observations.

Demote "pedophiles don't mind being celibate" and "pedophiles don't need to care about women" to a conjecture. I don't know it for a fact, so well spotted. It still seems plausible, assuming we're talking pedophilia instead of (not as well as) the usual adult heterosexual orientation.

And add a "sometimes" to the pedophiles protect pedophiles. I suppose there may be times when they'll throw each other to the wolves to save their own skin, but I suggest that cooperation and mutual protection is also plausible, and there are reported instances of convicted pedophiles known to have been friends with other convicted pedophiles.

I don't think any of this weakens the question. So, what would such an organization look like, if one were to be found existing? It certainly would not present itself as The Pedophile Society.

Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:55:02 UTC | #946970